Victor Davis Hanson on Multiculturalism

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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http://nationalreview.com/article/349447/western-cultural-suicide

Multiculturalism — as opposed to the notion of a multiracial society united by a single culture — has become an abject contradiction in the modern Western world. Romance for a culture in the abstract that one has rejected in the concrete makes little sense. Multiculturalists talk grandly of Africa, Latin America, and Asia, usually in contrast to the core values of the United States and Europe. Certainly, in terms of food, fashion, music, art, and architecture, the Western paradigm is enriched from other cultures. But the reason that millions cross the Mediterranean to Europe or the Rio Grande to the United States is for something more that transcends the periphery and involves fundamental values — consensual government, free-market capitalism, the freedom of the individual, religious tolerance, equality between the sexes, rights of dissent, and a society governed by rationalism divorced from religious stricture. Somehow that obvious message has now been abandoned, as Western hosts lost confidence in the very society that gives us the wealth and leisure to ignore or caricature its foundations. The result is that millions of immigrants flock to the West, enjoy its material security, and yet feel little need to bond with their adopted culture, given that their hosts themselves are ambiguous about what others desperately seek out.

Why did the family of the Boston bombers, Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, even wish to come to Boston? If they really were in danger back home in the Islamic regions within Russia, why would members of the family return to the source of their supposed dangers? And if the city of Boston, the state of Massachusetts, and the federal government of the United States extended the Tsarnaevs years’ worth of public assistance, why would such largesse incur such hatred of the United States in the hearts of Tamerlan and Dzhokhar? Obviously, the Tsarnaevs had some sense that the United States was a freer, more humane, and more prosperous place than the Russia they left, but they also felt no love for it, felt no pressure from their hosts to cultivate such love — and believed that they could continue to live as Russian Muslims inside the United States. Did not the Tsarnaevs flee the Muslim hinterlands of Russia because they did not like the thought of things like pressure cookers full of ball bearings exploding and killing and maiming the innocent on the street?

Why for that matter did Major Nidal Hasan, a Palestinian-American citizen whose family was welcomed into the United States from the war-torn West Bank, so detest his adopted country that he would kill 13 fellow Americans and injure 32 others rather than just return in disillusionment to the land of his forefathers? Was it the idea that he could square the circle of being a radical anti-American Muslim, but with the advantages of subsidized education, material security, and freedom of expression unknown in Jericho? When General George Casey worried that the army’s diversity program might be imperiled after the slaughter, did the general ever express commensurate concern that Hasan apparently had never taken, as part of his military training, any course on the Constitution and American history, one that would have reminded him why he was sworn to defend his singular country’s values and history?

Why would Anwar al-Awlaki, another U.S. citizen, whose family was welcomed to the United States for sanctuary from the misery and violence of Yemen, grow to despise America and devote the latter part of his adult life to terrorizing the United States? He certainly need not have conducted his hatred from a Virginia mosque when all of the Middle East was ripe for his activism. Was Awlaki ever reminded in school or by any religious figure why exactly America was more tolerant of Muslims than Yemen was of Christians? Or did he hate his country because it treated Muslims humanely in a way that he would never treat Christians? Why did Mohamed Morsi wish to go to university in the U.S. or teach in the California State University system — given that California values were antithetical to his own Muslim Brotherhood strictures? Was it because Morsi understood that American education would not do to him what he will soon do to Egyptian education?

The United Kingdom is currently reeling from the beheading of a British soldier by two British subjects whose fathers had fled from violence-prone Nigeria. Why did they not return to Nigeria, carve out new lives there, and find their roots? Is it because there are too many in Nigeria like themselves who take machetes to the streets? For that matter, why do some Pakistani immigrants in cold, foggy Britain brag of establishing Sharia there? Is it because they wish to follow their version of Sharia in a liberal Western society that is more accommodating than are the radical Islamists whom they so often praise from afar?

Is Britain to be run in the shadows by some diehard Western traditionalists pulling the levers of free-market capitalism, democracy, and freedom of the individual, so that in its plazas and squares others have the freedom and wherewithal to damn just those values? In Britain, as in the West in general, deportation is a fossilized concept. Unity is passé. Patriotism is long suspect. The hip metrosexual cultures of the urban West strain to find fault in their inheritance, and seem to appreciate those who do that in the most cool fashion — but always with the expectation that there will be some poor blokes who, in terms of clean water, medical care, free speech, and dependable electricity, ensure that London is not Lagos, that Stockholm is not Damascus, and that Los Angeles is not Nuevo Laredo.

Page two is here:
http://nationalreview.com/article/349447/western-cultural-suicide/page/0/1

The last bolded section articulates a vague impression I've had for some time about folks who fault American culture in the guise of being multicultural and tolerant.

However, I've never come across anyone who will say that that all cultures are valid, or that no culture is superior to any other. I don't think anyone preaches multiculturalism exactly, but rather implies it when he or she instinctively attempts to find fault within his or her own culture before ever criticizing another, even if the criticism is valid.
 
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lagokc

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Mar 27, 2013
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And if the city of Boston, the state of Massachusetts, and the federal government of the United States extended the Tsarnaevs years’ worth of public assistance, why would such largesse incur such hatred of the United States in the hearts of Tamerlan and Dzhokhar?

I kind of get the impression Tamerlan (wtf did his parents seriously name him after Timor the Lame? Who the fuck does that? It's like naming your kid after Genghis Khan) was more motivated by money than hatred. While on his sojourn he met up with a rich Saudi who offered him safe passage out of the US on a private jet, a new life, riches, toys, and 3 virgin wives if he'd commit a terrorist act against a few Americans. And if he could become a respected holy warrior while making money for it, it could be the opportunity that could turn his life around. Recognizing the choice between remaining a stay at home dad with a wife who spent every waking hour working and becoming idly wealthy he opted for the later. After the bombing he finds himself unable to make contact with his foreign investor who smartly vanished into the shadows. In a panic he carjacks an SUV, and tries his best to flee.

That story seems to fit a little better than "pissed off brothers decide to kill random Americans for Allah before panicked chase" but then I have a pretty vivid imagination.
 
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lagokc

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Mar 27, 2013
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What is the hip metro-sexual cultures?
Hipsters?

No, Hipsters are a different phenomenon entirely. A hipster is more likely to be found in skinny jeans, a fedora, and listening to music that "you wouldn't have heard of". A metro-sexual is more likely to have nice slacks, a dress shirt and tie, and be listening to Chopin, Bartok or Liszt. I can see how you would get them confused though.
 

Orignal Earl

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Oct 27, 2005
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No, Hipsters are a different phenomenon entirely. A hipster is more likely to be found in skinny jeans, a fedora, and listening to music that "you wouldn't have heard of". A metro-sexual is more likely to have nice slacks, a dress shirt and tie, and be listening to Chopin, Bartok or Liszt. I can see how you would get them confused though.

I guess I'm not up to speed on what's hip these days
None of my kids are listening to Chopin
 
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lagokc

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Mar 27, 2013
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I guess I'm not up to speed on what's hip these days
None of my kids are listening to Chopin

Hipsters aren't hip and the best way to see the definition of a metro-sexual is to watch a few episodes of Frasier Crane (I think it's still on netflix). Metro-sexuals tend to be late-20s to 40s, well dressed, groomed, and cultured, effeminate. Either gentlemanly, or unmanly and decadent, or both depending on your perspective.

Give your kids some time... a lot of Chopin requires some life experiences to really appreciate.
 

Orignal Earl

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Oct 27, 2005
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Give your kids some time... a lot of Chopin requires some life experiences to really appreciate.

They appreciate all music, my youngest (18) can play a pretty mean piano.
I just meant that's not what they prefer to listen to
And I like hip hop but prefer banjo
Put them together and that's some sweet music too
 
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Multiculturalism has been a massive failure and it must be stopped. It is going to do more harm than good.
 

unokitty

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Jan 5, 2012
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oriana-Fallaci.jpg
 

Orignal Earl

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Oct 27, 2005
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I am angry at the Jews for many things… If you want to take the example of America, how they hold the power, the economical power in so many ways, and the press and the other kind of stuff… I never realized how it happened and they came to control the media to that point. Why?

-Oriana Fallaci

She sounds like a very angry woman
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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http://nationalreview.com/article/349447/western-cultural-suicide



Page two is here:
http://nationalreview.com/article/349447/western-cultural-suicide/page/0/1

The last bolded section articulates a vague impression I've had for some time about folks who fault American culture in the guise of being multicultural and tolerant.

However, I've never come across anyone who will say that that all cultures are valid, or that no culture is superior to any other. I don't think anyone preaches multiculturalism exactly, but rather implies it when he or she instinctively attempts to find fault within his or her own culture before ever criticizing another, even if the criticism is valid.

Neither cultures nor societies are monolithic. I've never heard anyone say Palestinian culture is anything but fucked up and ditto with lots of other backwaters (e.g. North Korea, sub-Saharan Africa, etc); it doesn't need to be stated because it's obvious on its face. But that doesn't mean every aspect of their culture is irredeemable or they might not have some traits worth emulating, not everyone there is a terrorist head chopper or genocidal clitoris cutter.
 

Abraxas

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Oct 26, 2004
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The last bolded section articulates a vague impression I've had for some time about folks who fault American culture in the guise of being multicultural and tolerant.

However, I've never come across anyone who will say that that all cultures are valid, or that no culture is superior to any other. I don't think anyone preaches multiculturalism exactly, but rather implies it when he or she instinctively attempts to find fault within his or her own culture before ever criticizing another, even if the criticism is valid.

Neither cultures nor societies are monolithic. I've never heard anyone say Palestinian culture is anything but fucked up and ditto with lots of other backwaters (e.g. North Korea, sub-Saharan Africa, etc); it doesn't need to be stated because it's obvious on its face. But that doesn't mean every aspect of their culture is irredeemable or they might not have some traits worth emulating, not everyone there is a terrorist head chopper or genocidal clitoris cutter.

What he said.

Let me give you an example. I am an atheist. I do not believe in a higher power, gods, prophets, miracles, or magic. I also have spent considerable time debating religion online, and probably more than 95% of that time has been spent specifically on Judaism and Christianity and challenging them. Why? Is it because I think they are more wrong than Hinduism or Shinto? Is it because I think they are more destructive in the modern age than Islam? No, of course not.

However, because Christianity so thoroughly permeates the American culture, is what I grew up around, is what I am most familiar with and thus understand best, that has the most direct impact on my life, it is what I end up talking about most because it interests me the most. As much time as I spend being critical of Christianity vs. Islam, for example, does not mean I would want a culture that is more heavily influenced by Islam or even would prefer an Islamic culture to a Christian one, only that since my culture has the biggest influence on me it is where most of my attention ends up.

So too with multiculturalism as discussed. People talk about their own culture because that is what shapes their lives, that is what influences them, what they are continually exposed to. People talk about what matters to them and by and large other people in far away lands or hidden away on the fringe don't.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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Neither cultures nor societies are monolithic.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure I understand your response.

Insofar as a culture represents the whole of the values and principles of a society it has to be considered as a monolith, at least to my understanding. An anthropologist may disagree with me.

Otherwise, it seems you're essentially undermining the definition of the word culture. How can we call anything a culture (and therefore how can we compare one culture with another) if we cannot consider it as a whole?
 

Abraxas

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Oct 26, 2004
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In all seriousness, I'm not sure I understand your response.

Insofar as a culture represents the whole of the values and principles of a society it has to be considered as a monolith, at least to my understanding. An anthropologist may disagree with me.

Otherwise, it seems you're essentially undermining the definition of the word culture. How can we call anything a culture (and therefore how can we compare one culture with another) if we cannot consider it as a whole?

If cultures are monolithic then how do you define the word "subculture" in a way that makes it distinct from just plain culture?
 

Orignal Earl

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Oct 27, 2005
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In all seriousness, I'm not sure I understand your response.

Insofar as a culture represents the whole of the values and principles of a society it has to be considered as a monolith, at least to my understanding. An anthropologist may disagree with me.

Otherwise, it seems you're essentially undermining the definition of the word culture. How can we call anything a culture (and therefore how can we compare one culture with another) if we cannot consider it as a whole?

The culture of the United States is primarily a Western culture, but is also influenced by Native American, African, Asian, Polynesian, and Latin American cultures. American culture started its formation over 10,000 years ago with the migration of Paleo-Indians from Asia into the region that is today the continental United States. It has its own unique social and cultural characteristics such as dialect, music, arts, social habits, cuisine, and folklore. The United States of America is an ethnically and racially diverse country as a result of large-scale immigration from many different countries throughout its history.[1]
Its chief early European influences came from English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish settlers of colonial America during British rule. British culture, due to colonial ties with Britain that spread the English language, legal system and other cultural inheritances, had a formative influence. Other important influences came from other parts of western Europe, especially Germany,[2] France, and Italy.

The United States has often been thought of as a melting pot, but beginning in the late 1990s and early 2000s, it trends towards cultural diversity, pluralism and the image of a salad bowl instead.[5][6] Due to the extent of American culture, there are many integrated but unique social subcultures within the United States. The cultural affiliations an individual in the United States may have commonly depend on social class, political orientation and a multitude of demographic characteristics such as religious background, occupation and ethnic group membership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_United_States

What do you think American culture is?
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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If cultures are monolithic then how do you define the word "subculture" in a way that makes it distinct from just plain culture?

I'm not sure exactly. Admittedly I'm feeling this out as I go, but it seems to me that you and Glenn answer the charge of "multiculturalists think all cultures are the same" with "define culture." Am I wrong?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
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I'd say Hanson's definition pertaining to its defining and fundamental values is a good summation: consensual government, free-market capitalism, the freedom of the individual, religious tolerance, equality between the sexes, rights of dissent, and a society governed by rationalism divorced from religious stricture.

Incidentally, I'm going to bed.
 
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Orignal Earl

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I'd say Hanson's definition pertaining to its defining and fundamental values is a good summation: consensual government, free-market capitalism, the freedom of the individual, religious tolerance, equality between the sexes, rights of dissent, and a society governed by rationalism divorced from religious stricture.

Incidentally, I'm going to bed.

Quite a few countries fit that description.

Good night :)
 

Abraxas

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Oct 26, 2004
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I'm not sure exactly. Admittedly I'm feeling this out as I go, but it seems to me that you and Glenn answer the charge of "multiculturalists think all cultures are the same" with "define culture." Am I wrong?

I can't speak for him but my point is more that I take issue with the idea that people go after their own culture out of the idea it is cool to do so while simultaneously letting slide the deficiencies of other cultures, other nations because of some desire to be multicultural. I'll admit some probably do but I think more often than not people will simply bitch about whatever culture they find themselves in because that is the one that has the big immediate impact on them. Like I mentioned with my Christianity anecdote, I don't spend most of my time debating religion on it because I think it is wronger or worse than other religions, I spend my time on it because I know it best living in it and it has the biggest impact on me, I expect culture in the broader sense is treated by most people the same way.

To me, as a supporter of multiculturalism, I view all humans as morally equal at their base (discounting any actions they take that changes that equality). I also tend not to view any culture as necessarily inherently evil. Certainly there are some that have abundant abhorrent traits but very few of them as groups approach life from the standpoint of "how can I be as big of an ass possible". Most people want to live their life, want to do the best they can to get by, will adapt to situations that they find themselves in through assimilation to one degree or another. Further, often they will have something to contribute to the group, a new way of thinking, a new way to solve a problem, or even a new way to enjoy yourself. To me, the free exchange of ideas inherently involves multiculturalism as the only way to ensure their culture doesn't bleed into yours is to shut down the flow of information from them to you.

Is it a painful process? Absolutely. Look at American history. Did African natives and their descendants or Asian migrants and theirs integrate completely and peaceably overnight? Even with Europe, did the Irish instantly fit in? No, of course not. But, given time, exposure, and the general desire not to start shit, eventually things came together and have given us a lot of wonderful things. Can you imagine, for example, New Orleans culture without multiculturalism? We are a mutt nation, a hybrid of dozens of different ethnicities and cultures that have mixed and mingled and bled together over the decades and we are stronger for it. It is what makes us, us. Old prejudices were lost, old hatreds forgotten, and disparate groups eventually found relative harmony. I reject that somewhere along the way this process stopped working, that people just became to different or too intractable to learn from one another, to live with one another.

I will never tell you it is a clean or easy or simple process. Are there complications with hispanic populations in the US using Spanish as their primary language making it hard to blend? Sure, but at the same time a lot of their descendants are learning both. Are their Islamic fanatics out to murder everyone who doesn't think like they do? Absolutely. But clearly it isn't all of them or the most violent city in America would be Dearborn. I believe, at a fundamental level, humans are communal creatures, we want to get along and live our lives and not live in places that are prone to explosions and murders and that trend will eventually even out the bumps when civilizations come into contact with one another.

I'll stop rambling now if you want to respond but to recap, my argument against the OP is more than people are critical of their own culture not because they are multicultural but because inadequacies in their own culture are what impact them, multiculturalism or not is unrelated. I favor multiculturalism because I think cultures mixing together leaves them both richer and while it is a painful process, the end result of relative harmony is worth the growing pains when the alternative is alienation and continued misunderstanding.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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What he said.

Let me give you an example. I am an atheist. I do not believe in a higher power, gods, prophets, miracles, or magic. I also have spent considerable time debating religion online, and probably more than 95% of that time has been spent specifically on Judaism and Christianity and challenging them. Why? Is it because I think they are more wrong than Hinduism or Shinto? Is it because I think they are more destructive in the modern age than Islam? No, of course not.

However, because Christianity so thoroughly permeates the American culture, is what I grew up around, is what I am most familiar with and thus understand best, that has the most direct impact on my life, it is what I end up talking about most because it interests me the most. As much time as I spend being critical of Christianity vs. Islam, for example, does not mean I would want a culture that is more heavily influenced by Islam or even would prefer an Islamic culture to a Christian one, only that since my culture has the biggest influence on me it is where most of my attention ends up.

So too with multiculturalism as discussed. People talk about their own culture because that is what shapes their lives, that is what influences them, what they are continually exposed to. People talk about what matters to them and by and large other people in far away lands or hidden away on the fringe don't.

That is well and good, but the OP's author has a point. There does seem to be quite a bit of apologia for illiberal societies in the name of multiculturism. Faced with evidence of rampant chauvanism, homophobia, anti-semitism, anti-intellectualism, religious fundamentalism, and theocratic tendencies, it seems like many western liberals would prefer to change the subject and talk about Christian fundies or what bad actors the US and Israel supposedly are on the world stage. It seems like we're allowed to be intolerant of intolerance itself, except when it comes to foreign cultures. One of the most common manifestations of this - and I see it all the time on P&N and elsewhere - is the false equivalency. Any time a story comes up of some atrocious thing done by Muslims, like beheading a woman in Saudi Arabia for "witchcraft" (which we haven't done since the 17th century), it becomes necessary to torture reality to find something supposedly as bad or worse here. It's pretty transparent what's going on there.
 
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Abraxas

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That is well and good, but the OP's author has a point. There does seem to be quite a bit of apologia for illiberal societies in the name of multiculturism. Faced with evidence of rampant chauvanism, homophobia, anti-semitism, anti-intellectualism, religious fundamentalism, and theocratic tendencies, it seems like many western liberals would prefer to change the subject and talk about Christian fundies or what bad actors the US and Israel supposedly are on the world stage. It seems like we're allowed to be intolerant of intolerance itself, except when it comes to foreign cultures. One of the most common manifestations of this - and I see it all the time on P&N and elsewhere - is the false equivalency. Any time a story comes up of some atrocious thing done by Muslims, like beheading a woman in Saudi Arabia for "witchcraft" (which we haven't done since the 17th century), it becomes necessary to torture reality to find something supposedly as bad or worse here. It's pretty transparent what's going on there.
Sure, it is shit behavior in largely shit places. The difference is nobody I or many of the other multicultural "apologists" get faced with anyone defending those practices. When was the last time you encountered someone defending genital mutilation or honor killings or child rape as is common in some parts of the world? Maybe you could show an example of that kind of diversion, but at the same time, where does the conversation go from there?

Using your example, let's model a conversation.

OP: The Saudi's beheaded a woman for witchcraft!
Post 1 through n: The pricks!
Post n+1: ???

Maybe I am missing something but when it comes to this stuff, everyone agrees it is horrible and horrifying and so either the conversation dies immediately due to nobody having anything to talk about or it gets diverted to a topic sufficiently contentious that it spawns that thing we have around here like conversation or debate but with more screaming and hurled furniture. If we found someone on here endorsing and defending genital mutilation, for example, I expect you would probably see this board as united as it has ever been in finding new and exciting things to bludgeon them with until they stopped posting.
 

Agent11

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Jan 22, 2006
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There is something to be said for rethinking the policy of seeding our country with immigrants from areas of the world where the presiding public opinion on governance, society, and individual liberties is the antithesis of our own.
 

Farang

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Jul 7, 2003
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I think America is fine, and will be fine. We're big enough to absorb these immigrant communities even if some assimilate better than others.

I never understood the tolerance in the UK or France for these isolated immigrant communities. I mean you don't see millions of Frenchman living in enclaves in Vietnam, that sort of thing would not be tolerated. Vietnam is for the Vietnamese and their laws reflect that.

These countries, France, UK, others, have no historically been 'melting pots.' I don't know why they try to be, to their detriment.

In America it works because we have a fairly clear identity outlined in our Constitution. Ask me what it means to be an American and it's easy to say freedom of speech, press, free markets, bla bla bla.. ask a Frenchman what it means to be French and I imagine the answer is more abstract and hard to define
 

Mursilis

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Mar 11, 2001
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Neither cultures nor societies are monolithic. I've never heard anyone say Palestinian culture is anything but fucked up and ditto with lots of other backwaters (e.g. North Korea, sub-Saharan Africa, etc); it doesn't need to be stated because it's obvious on its face.

Well, to you, maybe. Never make the mistake of assuming that what's obvious to you is obvious to others. Rational thought isn't nearly as common as you think.
 

Mursilis

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Mar 11, 2001
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I think America is fine, and will be fine. We're big enough to absorb these immigrant communities even if some assimilate better than others.

As they say in the investment world, past performance is no guarantee of future results.