Very interesting article about Hamas and the Peace process....

[JEDIYoda]

Several things right ro mwrong hamas is in control of Gaza!!
Hamas can and will never take a backseat role in this region of the world...even if they were to 'democratically" -- hahahahahaa get it democratically voted out of office.....

There are quite a few excellent points in this article........
But as always it can be said there are two sides to every coin!!




http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=140168

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — To relaunch Middle East peace talks on Thursday, the Israeli and Palestinian leaders and their American mediators quietly agreed to push aside the question of Hamas — the Islamic militant group that controls one of the two Palestinian territories and rejects negotiations.


But Hamas let it be known with its bullets that it would not be left out of the equation — the militants killed four Israelis and wounded two others in a pair of attacks on the eve of the new talks.


The bloodshed was a reminder that Hamas is now on the list of intractable issues that have stymied decades of Mideast negotiations. There can be no peace without Hamas, but there is no solution so far for bringing the Iranian-backed group into the process.


“The attacks were meant to tell (Palestinian President Mahmoud) Abbas he is not the one who decides the fate of the Palestinians,” declared Ahmed Yousef, a senior Hamas official in Gaza, adding that the group deserves a place in national decision-making because it won parliamentary elections in 2006.


“Hamas will never agree to be ignored and isolated, and it can reshuffle the cards,” he said.


Hamas is firmly in control of the Gaza Strip, one of the two territories that are supposed to be part of a future Palestinian state. It wields virtual veto power over any agreement and has given no indication it would be willing to accept a deal with Israel reached by Abbas, who runs a rival government in the West Bank.


The more moderate Abbas met Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Thursday for the first peace talks in two years, hosted by President Barack Obama.


Abbas and Netanyahu are far apart on issues that have eluded a solution for decades, including the borders of a Palestinian state, the fate of millions of Palestinian refugees and the most explosive issue, the competing claims to the holy city of Jerusalem.


But if they can somehow work out these differences, Hamas would be needed to implement any deal. The Palestinians seek the West Bank and Gaza — located on opposite sides of Israel — for their future state, with east Jerusalem as its capital.


For now, the Palestinians appear to be unified on one issue: There can be no peace that leaves the 1.5 million people of Gaza out.

Abbas has rejected any suggestion of a partial solution granting independence only to the West Bank and its 2.4 million Palestinians. This would be perceived by the Palestinian public as a massive sellout and sign of weakness. Hamas would paint Abbas as a traitor.


“Any result and outcome of these talks does not commit us and does not commit our people. It only commits Abbas himself,” said Sami Abu Zuhri, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza.


Abbas has repeatedly said he will present any peace deal to a national referendum, a vote that would include the people of Gaza. A vote in favor of peace would put heavy pressure on Hamas to accept the will of the Palestinian people.

So if Abbas will not go it alone, the quandary is how to bring Hamas into the fold.


Hamas, founded two decades ago as a Palestinian offshoot of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, has repeatedly played the role of spoiler in Mideast peace efforts over the years.

A series of Hamas suicide bombings in the mid-1990s helped derail peace negotiations at the time. The group also killed hundreds of Israelis during the second Palestinian uprising last decade — a time of heavy fighting in which Israel killed Hamas’ spiritual leader and dozens of other top commanders. Hundreds of Palestinian civilians also died in the fighting.


When Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, Hamas stepped up rocket attacks on southern Israel, helping fuel years of violence. After the 2006 election, a unity government formed with Abbas’ Fatah movement collapsed into civil war, resulting in Hamas’ takeover of Gaza the following year.


In fiery speeches ahead of the launch of peace talks, Hamas leaders repeatedly rejected compromise with Israel and condemned Abbas for seeking peace.

Yet behind the public rhetoric, the enigmatic group has also shown itself to be remarkably pragmatic. In its short-lived power-sharing agreement with Abbas, it agreed to let the moderate president handle negotiations with Israel, as long as he presented any deal to a national referendum.


While refusing to recognize the Jewish state’s right to exist, Hamas has largely honored a cease-fire since a devastating Israeli military offensive ended early last year.

Hamas forces have even blocked smaller militant groups from staging attacks, and this week, commanders ordered their forces to hold fire when Israeli tanks were conducting exercises along the Gaza border. Hamas leaders frequently speak of long-term truces with Israel that could last decades.

Hamas is also eager to win legitimacy in the Arab world. The reaction of key Arab players — including Syria, which hosts Hamas headquarters in Damascus, as well as Saudi Arabia, the custodian of the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina, and Egypt — could greatly influence Hamas’ behavior.


Beyond condemnations of this week’s shootings, neither Israeli, American or Palestinian officials in Abbas’ delegation have said much about Hamas, reflecting the international community’s inability to find a way to work with the Islamic militants.


Abbas condemned the attacks by the Islamic militants and his forces have arrested more than 250 Hamas activists in the West Bank.


Asked about Hamas on Thursday, White House Mideast envoy George Mitchell said: “We do not expect Hamas to play a role in this immediate process.” He added, however, that the U.S. would welcome Hamas’ “full participation” if it complies “with the basic requirements of democracy and nonviolence that are a prerequisite to engage in these serious types of discussions.”

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor agreed the Islamic militants have no role to play for now.


“Hamas does not fit into the process,” he said, adding that although the sides hope to reach an agreement in a year, implementing it would have to be gradual.


“Very efficient measures will be needed by all parties involved before an eventual peace agreement can be extended to Gaza,” he said.


In a series of interviews with The Associated Press, top Hamas officials voiced great skepticism over the new peace talks, but signaled they have no intention of scuttling the negotiations, at least for now.

“You want to go? OK, go. We have no objection,” said Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas’ top leader in Gaza, referring to Thursday’s gathering in Washington. He confidently predicted the talks would fail, saying Abbas is “wasting time.”


Since the Hamas takeover of Gaza, the Palestinians have been torn between two governments.


Hamas now has tens of thousands of armed fighters in Gaza and a sizable arsenal of rockets and mortar shells at its disposal. Neither a three-year Israeli-Egyptian blockade of Gaza nor Israel’s fierce military offensive last year put a dent in Hamas’ control.


Israel and the international community shun Hamas as a terrorist group and would have to make a tough decision to engage with the militants. The group has long coveted international recognition. But it has refused to accept international calls to renounce violence or recognize Israel’s right to exist.

“Our resistance is continuous,” Zahar said.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's a bit of a catch-22. Hamas won't be let in until there has been a significant period of time without terrorist attacks, but Hamas won't be left out and will kill people to force participation.

Same stuff different day.

 

[Lemon law]

I don't know if I can quite totally agree with Hayabusa Rider by just concentrating on Hamas, but Israel has significant baggage with its settler parties also.

The point is and remains, to arrive at a just mid-east peace, all parties, Israelis, Fatah, Hamas, and surrounding Arab States will all have to make significant concessions on all sides.

Such a set of mutual concessions have never happened, so why should we blame any one given group at this point? When we need a fair deal.

So instead we get the possibly even more repugnant mid-east status quo and perpetual tit for tat violence.

Sadly, the present status quo is a perfect environment for terrorists, and in the fullness of time its sadly all too likely that eventually stateless terrorists external to Palestinians will acquire and deliver the WMD to make Israel really feel the pain Israel now delivers to the Palestinians. And there I am talking about chemical, biological, radiological, or possibly nuclear weapons.

Thus far Israel can sustain and loudly complain about the loss of a few people, four here, two somewhere else, while killing more Palestinians in the tit for tat violence process made worthwhile because Israel maintains control of disputed territory. But attacks that kill multi thousand get far more serious and more motivating for Israel.

That is precisely the Israeli problem, they are a postage stamp sized country in an Ocean of hostile neighbors who out number them 50 or more to one. Israel barely has a population big enough to police the country they have and doubling in size gets them nowhere except spread thinner. Or to put it another way, Israelis have no buffer zone and can never obtain one.

Yet many equally small nations on earth are in the same boat as Israel, yet manage to have peace and security simply because they don't antagonize their larger neighbors.

Israel instead adopts the opposite strategy by becoming an armed camp, and does everything possible to make all its surrounding neighbors hate Israel with a passion.
In 1948 that strong defense was a needed virtue, but at this point, unless Israel does somethings to defuse the hatreds it so readily keeps building, its hard to be bullish on Israeli long term futures.

The other point to make is that the Israeli negotiating position is now stronger than its likely to be in future. If Israel does not now take the steps to defuse the Arab hatreds, the 5 to 10 year immediate future is not likely to look as good for Israel.

And the last point to make is that extremists in Israel and Hamas are driving the political process, when we need more moderates on all sides. If anything Abbas is the more moderate force, but if Abbas can't deliver the bacon, its Hamas extrermists
who may take over the West Bank.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I don't know if I can quite totally agree with Hayabusa Rider by just concentrating on Hamas, but Israel has significant baggage with its settler parties also.

The point is and remains, to arrive at a just mid-east peace, all parties, Israelis, Fatah, Hamas, and surrounding Arab States will all have to make significant concessions on all sides.

Such a set of mutual concessions have never happened, so why should we blame any one given group at this point? When we need a fair deal.

So instead we get the possibly even more repugnant mid-east status quo and perpetual tit for tat violence.

Sadly, the present status quo is a perfect environment for terrorists, and in the fullness of time its sadly all too likely that eventually stateless terrorists external to Palestinians will acquire and deliver the WMD to make Israel really feel the pain Israel now delivers to the Palestinians. And there I am talking about chemical, biological, radiological, or possibly nuclear weapons.

Thus far Israel can sustain and loudly complain about the loss of a few people, four here, two somewhere else, while killing more Palestinians in the tit for tat violence process made worthwhile because Israel maintains control of disputed territory. But attacks that kill multi thousand get far more serious and more motivating for Israel.

That is precisely the Israeli problem, they are a postage stamp sized country in an Ocean of hostile neighbors who out number them 50 or more to one. Israel barely has a population big enough to police the country they have and doubling in size gets them nowhere except spread thinner. Or to put it another way, Israelis have no buffer zone and can never obtain one.

Yet many equally small nations on earth are in the same boat as Israel, yet manage to have peace and security simply because they don't antagonize their larger neighbors.

Israel instead adopts the opposite strategy by becoming an armed camp, and does everything possible to make all its surrounding neighbors hate Israel with a passion.
In 1948 that strong defense was a needed virtue, but at this point, unless Israel does somethings to defuse the hatreds it so readily keeps building, its hard to be bullish on Israeli long term futures.

The other point to make is that the Israeli negotiating position is now stronger than its likely to be in future. If Israel does not now take the steps to defuse the Arab hatreds, the 5 to 10 year immediate future is not likely to look as good for Israel.

And the last point to make is that extremists in Israel and Hamas are driving the political process, when we need more moderates on all sides. If anything Abbas is the more moderate force, but if Abbas can't deliver the bacon, its Hamas extremists
who may take over the West Bank.

Why is it that half your rants are logical and then you destroy them by veering off into propaganda?

Israel instead adopts the opposite strategy by becoming an armed camp, and does everything possible to make all its surrounding neighbors hate Israel with a passion.
In 1948 that strong defense was a needed virtue, but at this point, unless Israel does somethings to defuse the hatreds it so readily keeps building, its hard to be bullish on Israeli long term futures.

Israel has had no choice but to become an armed camp to ensure her safety.
Last attacked by a neighboring state '73
Last attacked by a state '91
Last attacked by a proxy for a state '08
Last threatened extermination by a state - '10

Was there peace for her at any of that time - no attacks and/or civilians killed

He surrounding neighbors have hated her because of who she is from the beginning and because she refused to be exterminated.

The Palestinian issue is an excuse - those countries treat the Palestinians much worse than Israel ever has.
Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon were the one that setup the camps/cities for the Palestinians, not Israel.

but if Abbas can't deliver the bacon, it is Hamas extremists
who may take over the West Bank

Hamas is presently sitting on the top of the fence and their actions have not indicated which way they will side.

Statements and actions over the past two weeks indicate that they want the talks to fail; showing how weak Abbas is.
Yet, if that encourages the more radical elements to start attacking Israel (embolden by the PR win on the blockade); the result may be more devastating.

Hamas will have become the defacto leadership and any actions that then come after will be their responsibility.

Israel will not accept and the world may reject Hamas claims of mea culpa when trouble is initiated from within Hamas controlled territory.

 

[Lemon law]

At least EK has some sound reasoning even if some of his initial premises are largely Israeli propaganda. But after 1973 Israeli military hegemony became strong enough so that ALL surrounding Arab States realize that removing Israel from the Mid-east by military means is simply not a realistic option.

But at least the Annapolis peace conference established that Arab states are prepared to accept Israel, but the price of that is a return to Israel's 1948 borders.

But if this new round of peace talks lead to nothing, I am rather worried that the last of the Oslo hopes for a just mid-east peace will end.

How long Israel can straddle the fence remains to be seen, but its very possible Arab oil money will start financing proxy wars, external to the Palestinian terrorist attacks, and the Hezbollah like arming of the Palestinians. With Turkey the new Joker in the deck.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

The division by civil war of Gaza and the WB has made a single peace agreement resulting in a palestinian state near impossible. How can the Isrealis negotiate in good faith with Abbas when they know he can only speak for the WB? The idea that he can gain agreement of the Palestinian people of any negotiated peace through national referrendum or any other means is suspect at best.

I think the Isrealis should persue peace agreements with both areas seperately, perhaps starting with the West bank leaving the door open for a unified Palestinian state later.

 

[Freshgeardude]

At least EK has some sound reasoning even if some of his initial premises are largely Israeli propaganda. But after 1973 Israeli military hegemony became strong enough so that ALL surrounding Arab States realize that removing Israel from the Mid-east by military means is simply not a realistic option.

But at least the Annapolis peace conference established that Arab states are prepared to accept Israel, but the price of that is a return to Israel's 1948 borders.

But if this new round of peace talks lead to nothing, I am rather worried that the last of the Oslo hopes for a just mid-east peace will end.

How long Israel can straddle the fence remains to be seen, but its very possible Arab oil money will start financing proxy wars, external to the Palestinian terrorist attacks, and the Hezbollah like arming of the Palestinians. With Turkey the new Joker in the deck.

Stop talking out of your ass.

Israel has a treaty with turkey and with egypt, which BOTH help israel keep hamas and the west bank unarmed.


egypt doesnt want an armored hamas just as much as israel.

turkey doesnt want the palestinains spilling over the border either.

why would turkey turn on its ally? because your retarded logic, that has been proven false for the past few years, says so?

How long Israel can straddle the fence remains to be seen, but its very possible Arab oil money will start financing proxy wars, external to the Palestinian terrorist attacks, and the Hezbollah like arming of the Palestinians. With Turkey the new Joker in the deck.

lol wut?

" will start financing proxy wars"??? um hamas and hezbollah ARE already terrorist proxies of Iran. These are known facts and have been proven plenty of times. are you still denying the well known truth because some random article on the edge of the internet says so?

 

[nick1985]

Buy your suicide vest yet Lemon law?