Sure, many uneducated Christians do believe this nation was founded as a Protestant nation under their God with Jesus by his side, but they probably also think our currency has always had "in god we trust" on it and that eighteenth century schoolkids said the Pledge of Allegiance. They hear about "separation of Church and State" in the librul media, but that's probably something those Atheist activist judges came up with. Or the Jews. Certainly not real Americans.
"Sorry Marge, the mob has spoken."
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
You don't really deserve any response since you refuse to you know, debate. I asked you to name a christian principle the US is founded on. You claimed it was a trap.
I offer this: The principles of separation of powers, checks and balances, and that govt derived its power from the consent of the governed were principles articulated by John Locke which directly influenced the Decl of Ind and the Const. What Christian principles do you (or anyone else) claim had similar direct influence of that magnitude?
I guess I now know who is behind the ridiculous NoSeparation.org billboards in my area quoting the founding fathers. :roll:
CrackRabbit
Lifer
- Mar 30, 2001
- 16,642
- 62
- 91
Yeah there was this great one of a cat riding a Roomba...
Oh wait.. you haven't answered my reply yet, damn tricked by the trolls again.
Trolls = 2
CrackRabbit = 0
PJ: Being in the business and finance sectors and faced with such questions daily I have given a lot of thought to moral philosophy, or "ethics" as others may know the idea. I have also been faced with the societal consequences of disintegrating families here in the U.S. We all have.
M: Of course disintegrating families has many causes not all of which are related to moral philosophy, no?
PJ: While I have no truck with moral absolutism, I do believe it is necessary to have some type of moral foundation, a structure to build one's life on, so to speak.
M: But doesn't this make you part of the problem? What moral foundation do you recommend? It it's not based on the absolute then surely it must be based on the subjective sickness of men that you decry, no? How am I to value your relative morality over Acorn's. What claim can you make for moral superiority. Surely your relativism is part of the problem, not the solution, no?
PJ: What I believe the VV videos illustrate is that many parts of the country and certain populations have broadly abandoned traditional foundations and in their absence have embarked on a societally dangerous experiment in extreme moral relativism.
So far, I can't bring myself to watch them. I fear they will corrupt me or bore me silly. I know that conservatives differ from liberals in that they have a big pointy finger they use to lay blame and that discussions of corruption fire up their moral flame and make they self satisfied. I can get no such thrill. It sucks being liberal. We don't get off on moral disgust, sadly.
PJ: So we have all of these videos that expose this perfectly. The players speak for themselves, they represent their organizational mores, they follow the winding path that is expected of them.
M: There is a people in I think Borneo who wear penis sheaths and they strum them when something gets them excited. I think we should adopt this practice here in the open instead of under the table.
PJ: My question remains the same...
If we have a choice left, where are we going to go now?
M: Unfortunately, we go nowhere. Everybody thinks that to change the world we have to cure other people of their moral corruption. In fact we can do nothing for anybody else. I can only save me. But I did find that saving myself amounts to saving everybody else.
There is one truth and it covers us all and it is inalienable. Everyone is born perfect.
M: Of course disintegrating families has many causes not all of which are related to moral philosophy, no?
PJ: While I have no truck with moral absolutism, I do believe it is necessary to have some type of moral foundation, a structure to build one's life on, so to speak.
M: But doesn't this make you part of the problem? What moral foundation do you recommend? It it's not based on the absolute then surely it must be based on the subjective sickness of men that you decry, no? How am I to value your relative morality over Acorn's. What claim can you make for moral superiority. Surely your relativism is part of the problem, not the solution, no?
PJ: What I believe the VV videos illustrate is that many parts of the country and certain populations have broadly abandoned traditional foundations and in their absence have embarked on a societally dangerous experiment in extreme moral relativism.
So far, I can't bring myself to watch them. I fear they will corrupt me or bore me silly. I know that conservatives differ from liberals in that they have a big pointy finger they use to lay blame and that discussions of corruption fire up their moral flame and make they self satisfied. I can get no such thrill. It sucks being liberal. We don't get off on moral disgust, sadly.
PJ: So we have all of these videos that expose this perfectly. The players speak for themselves, they represent their organizational mores, they follow the winding path that is expected of them.
M: There is a people in I think Borneo who wear penis sheaths and they strum them when something gets them excited. I think we should adopt this practice here in the open instead of under the table.
PJ: My question remains the same...
If we have a choice left, where are we going to go now?
M: Unfortunately, we go nowhere. Everybody thinks that to change the world we have to cure other people of their moral corruption. In fact we can do nothing for anybody else. I can only save me. But I did find that saving myself amounts to saving everybody else.
There is one truth and it covers us all and it is inalienable. Everyone is born perfect.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
I believe the strongest case to be made that Christianity influenced the founding fathers is to be seen in their adamant determination to keep it out of the Constitution. That was one poison they knew to avoid.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
Well you self-educated chaps have had 5 pages to argue otherwise with the entire internet as your playground. I haven't seen a single cogent argument put forth.
And seriously, with us libruls running the media, hollywood, the press, the newspapers, tv, and also the educational system, how you guys get anyone elected, let alone a president, is really a miracle. Given the array of forces your tiny minority which comprises more than half the country struggles against, I find your perseverence quite admirable. Cheers to ya.
I am a Christian and I am an American and Christianity and America, like me, are good, so clearly we all have the same origin. It's just natural that the good looks just like me.
I love America because here I am free to think whatever it is I want, just as I am free to believe in my religion whatever it is they teach me. This is how, freedom of thought, told me that evolution is just bunk and America is a Christian nation. I'm free.
I love America because here I am free to think whatever it is I want, just as I am free to believe in my religion whatever it is they teach me. This is how, freedom of thought, told me that evolution is just bunk and America is a Christian nation. I'm free.
n yusef
Platinum Member
- Feb 20, 2005
- 2,158
- 1
- 0
Who cares whether a bunch of guys who owned slaves, oppressed women, and massacred Natives were Christians?
To debate the intentions of our Founders without mentioning this is. . .indescribable. This thread should be linked to from the wiki page about cognitive dissonance.
To debate the intentions of our Founders without mentioning this is. . .indescribable. This thread should be linked to from the wiki page about cognitive dissonance.
I watched the one about Sotomayer's racist comment and thought it was kind of amusing. I liked how fairly the people responded. The ACORN prostitute one went on way too long, only watched part of it.. it was actually kind of sickening how nonchalant the lady was about the whole thing. I tried to watch the gay priest one but it was private or something and could not watch it. I take these things with a grain of salt of course.
And I say it was founded on Pagan concepts going back to the Greeks! The inventors of Debate, rhytoric, Democracy (free citizens only)and institutional slavery.
Og, you missed the document Congress made ratifying and certifying that the U.S. of A. is a 100% secular nation? Og, you must read U. S. of A. history and not home school propaganda. Hay now! Did "for the people, by the people" give you a clue?
Too bad that one would be tarred and feathered if such a creed was repeated in many a church of the here and now.:heart:
Ah, Benny F, the man that invented the lightning rod thus proving LIGHTNING a natural force(not the anger of God directed at Human kind)easily diverted by a tech fix.
Ahhh, all the stupidity and douchiness of an internet forum troll conveniently rolled into a right wing hate "expose". Nice.
This is about the same as those ultra-left Chavez videos showing how the U.S. is out to get him--friggin nutso...
I just hafta ask--if you are going to troll people in real life, why would you do it on something as stupid as politics? Man you could have so much fun...
This is about the same as those ultra-left Chavez videos showing how the U.S. is out to get him--friggin nutso...
I just hafta ask--if you are going to troll people in real life, why would you do it on something as stupid as politics? Man you could have so much fun...
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,170
- 18,807
- 146
Think about the "Christian America" myth for a moment: If America was truly founded as an explicitly Christian nation (as is continually proclaimed by "Christian" activists such as James Dobson, Pat Robertson, D. James Kennedy, Chuck Colson, Tim and Beverly LaHaye, Jerry Falwell, Bill Gothard, etc.), then why do we find no mention whatsoever of Jesus, Christ, Christian or Bible in America's founding documents? --not in the Declaration of Independence nor in the Constitution of the United States. In fact, the Constitution does not even make a single reference to any "god." And the reference to a "creator" in the Declaration of Independence is merely an ambiguous "creator," a "Creator" that is vague and subordinated to natural laws that everyone should know through common sense, i.e., "self-evident" truths. (This fits when one realizes that it's author was a Deist, not a Christian.) Moreover, the Bible, Jesus, or Christianity is never mentioned nor alluded to in either document. Nor is God, Jesus, Christ, Bible or Christianity mentioned in the hundreds of pages of the Federalist Papers (the "working documents" of the Founding Fathers). Strange stuff for a nation that some like to say was founded as "Christian."
But myths die hard, if ever.
It must be remembered that, The Founding Fathers did NOT put "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency. "Under God" was added to the Pledge by an act of Congress in 1954, during the McCarthy "communist witch hunt" hysteria. "In God We Trust" began to appear on coins in 1864 and became the official motto of the United States only in 1956. [The motto conceived by the Founding Fathers was "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of
Many, One).]
"The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion" (Treaty with Tripoli, 1797. Presented by President and Founding Father John Adams, and ratified unanimously by Congress.)
"No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States" (U. S. Constitution, 1787, Art. 6, Sec. 3).
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State" (Thomas Jefferson, 1802, letter to Danbury Baptist Association).
"The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State" (James Madison [author of the first amendment], 1819, Writings, 8:432).
"Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance" (James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101).
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" (James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555).
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." (James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, 1822)
But myths die hard, if ever.
It must be remembered that, The Founding Fathers did NOT put "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency. "Under God" was added to the Pledge by an act of Congress in 1954, during the McCarthy "communist witch hunt" hysteria. "In God We Trust" began to appear on coins in 1864 and became the official motto of the United States only in 1956. [The motto conceived by the Founding Fathers was "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of
Many, One).]
"The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion" (Treaty with Tripoli, 1797. Presented by President and Founding Father John Adams, and ratified unanimously by Congress.)
"No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States" (U. S. Constitution, 1787, Art. 6, Sec. 3).
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus, building a wall of separation between Church and State" (Thomas Jefferson, 1802, letter to Danbury Baptist Association).
"The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State" (James Madison [author of the first amendment], 1819, Writings, 8:432).
"Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance" (James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101).
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" (James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555).
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." (James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, 1822)
Actually, the idea of a Christian nation is kind of non-Christian, in how one would establish something like that. It is one thing to share ideas; it is another to enforce ideas through power.
Well... this country was fought for and built by people from many walks of life on the principles of Christianity, just not the religion itself nor every single principle of Christianity. But we could just as easily say the country was founded on the principles of Buddhism or Zoroastrianism.
These religions share, at their core, a lot of the same beliefs with respect to interpersonal relationship and our responsibility and place in the world. And by 'interpersonal relationship' i do not mean sex or marriage... I mean how we think of and interact with our fellow man... how we esteem and respect their humanity and life as our own.
The statement "this country was founded by christians" is likely less inaccurate than "this country was founded by deist".
Why?
A) the people who signed some document did not found this country in a way any more real than a lawyer starts a corporation by authoring articles of incorporation. The people that worked the fields, died in the wars, etc. founded this country with their sweat and their blood. Those people were of many different religious walks and backgrounds but a lot of them were christian... i dare say over 50%.
b) if you took a tally of religious beliefs of the signatories of the dec. of independ. or the ratifiers of the constitution... i venture a guess that over half of them attended a christian church of one ilk or another and professed views closely aligned with Christian views.
c) before we get all upty about deist or christian or whatever... lets remember that is really doesn't fucking matter what the founding fathers wanted for this country. They are dead. This is a democratic republic and the citizen alive today in this country are supposed to craft and forge their own vision for the country. We want a national holiday lampooning the founding fathers... well if the majority of citizen's want it, that's what they are supposed to get. E.G. Every 'founding father', likely to a man, would cough up their spleen or worse when they saw the bloated pig our federal government has become, complete with all the levied taxes, etc.
These religions share, at their core, a lot of the same beliefs with respect to interpersonal relationship and our responsibility and place in the world. And by 'interpersonal relationship' i do not mean sex or marriage... I mean how we think of and interact with our fellow man... how we esteem and respect their humanity and life as our own.
The statement "this country was founded by christians" is likely less inaccurate than "this country was founded by deist".
Why?
A) the people who signed some document did not found this country in a way any more real than a lawyer starts a corporation by authoring articles of incorporation. The people that worked the fields, died in the wars, etc. founded this country with their sweat and their blood. Those people were of many different religious walks and backgrounds but a lot of them were christian... i dare say over 50%.
b) if you took a tally of religious beliefs of the signatories of the dec. of independ. or the ratifiers of the constitution... i venture a guess that over half of them attended a christian church of one ilk or another and professed views closely aligned with Christian views.
c) before we get all upty about deist or christian or whatever... lets remember that is really doesn't fucking matter what the founding fathers wanted for this country. They are dead. This is a democratic republic and the citizen alive today in this country are supposed to craft and forge their own vision for the country. We want a national holiday lampooning the founding fathers... well if the majority of citizen's want it, that's what they are supposed to get. E.G. Every 'founding father', likely to a man, would cough up their spleen or worse when they saw the bloated pig our federal government has become, complete with all the levied taxes, etc.
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