VAT style national sales tax being considered...quietly

[misle]

Link to article

With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.
....
"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."
....
"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

Good idea? Bad idea?

Most national sales taxes I've read about would replace the existing Income Tax. This looks like it would be in addition to the Income Tax. If that is the case, I think it's a terrible idea. No one has ever prospered from the government taking their money.

 

[Genx87]

Heh suddenly this is fine on top of income taxes. But alone it is a poor idea!

Our govt is so upside down they dont know where to go anymore.


The funny thing about this the congress and executive branches starting with Regan have reduced the poor and middle class tax burden so much the govt cant tax the rich enough to sustain its growth. So unsurprisingly they decide to reimplement a middle and poor class tax via a sale tax.

 

[WackyDan]

THe french replaced income tax with VAT originally..... Guess what happened? VAT brought in record revenue and they spent it all... When VAT under performed....they brought back an income tax on top of VAT.

I like VAT as a system. It works, is difficult to cheat, and places the revenue stream directly on those that consume the most. Don't consume as much as the jones and you keep more of your income. The problem is always going to be that politicians will never spend less and will always want more. That is what cap and trade is really about if you look at it closely. I really feel for those that live past us, as they are going to be taxed to death.

 

[Fern]

VAT style national sales tax being considered...quietly

^The best plan I've heard of to bring the Repubs back into power.

Fern

 

[StageLeft]

Of course it would be in addition, it will replace nothing. I see it as almost inevitable. Most other western countries do it, right? In Canada there is a 15% tax, which is a combo of federal and provincial.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Fern

VAT style national sales tax being considered...quietly

^The best plan I've heard of to bring the Repubs back into power.

Fern

Like the Republicans would repeal it? Its just more money for wars and Jesus!

 

[bamacre]

Is there anyone in Congress who, God forbid, thinks the problem is not that they don't have enough money, but that they spend too much?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: WackyDan
THe french replaced income tax with VAT originally..... Guess what happened? VAT brought in record revenue and they spent it all... When VAT under performed....they brought back an income tax on top of VAT.

I like VAT as a system. It works, is difficult to cheat, and places the revenue stream directly on those that consume the most. Don't consume as much as the jones and you keep more of your income. The problem is always going to be that politicians will never spend less and will always want more. That is what cap and trade is really about if you look at it closely. I really feel for those that live past us, as they are going to be taxed to death.

Except that it flys in the face of everything the Keynesians believe in: that you need to encourage - if not outright force - people to spend their money in order to keep the economy going. VAT might encourage savings, and that's a bad thing in the world of Krazy Keynes.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Is there anyone in Congress who, God forbid, thinks the problem is not that they don't have enough money, but that they spend too much?

LMFAO, now that's rich. There may be 2 or 3 but by and large the main goal of the blight on the US that DC has become is to find new and more wasteful ways to steal your money. Best part is there's plenty of ninnies who'll keep voting for these asswipes cause they're getting some portion of your income from the government and are perfectly happy to have the government to steal it from you for them.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Is there anyone in Congress who, God forbid, thinks the problem is not that they don't have enough money, but that they spend too much?

TREASON

IRS revenues down 34% for April

As predicted by others, tax revenues are down hugely. Less incomes, less capital gains, so the deficit will explode even higher without more taxes from elsewhere.

Except that it flys in the face of everything the Keynesians believe in: that you need to encourage - if not outright force - people to spend their money in order to keep the economy going. VAT might encourage savings, and that's a bad thing in the world of Krazy Keynes.

Then tax savings at a higher rate so that bank accounts shrink over time. And to screw people over who just keep it under their mattress, have twilight points in time at which bills older than a certain age lose all value.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Genx87The funny thing about this the congress and executive branches starting with Regan have reduced the poor and middle class tax burden so much the govt cant tax the rich enough to sustain its growth. So unsurprisingly they decide to reimplement a middle and poor class tax via a sale tax.

What a joke.

Reagan eliminated all of the interest deductions, except for homeowners. This was an effective tax increase on the middle and lower classes because those groups tend to carry car loans and credit card debt. Yes, maybe they shouldn't but this is the reality.

Not counting FICA/SS, the its not like the most of the Middle Class pays much in federal taxes - then or now. If you even have one kid, the dependent deduction washes away any Federal tax obligation. Back in the Reagan years and 20% mortgages, your interest deduction would eliminate your federal tax burden.

A VAT would likely hurt middle class spending, but hopefully it wouldn't apply to food and non-designer clothing/household goods.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Fern

VAT style national sales tax being considered...quietly

^The best plan I've heard of to bring the Repubs back into power.

Fern

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Is there anyone in Congress who, God forbid, thinks the problem is not that they don't have enough money, but that they spend too much?

Yes, there is, but they are severely outnumbered.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Then tax savings at a higher rate so that bank accounts shrink over time. And to screw people over who just keep it under their mattress, have twilight points in time at which bills older than a certain age lose all value.

They have a system for this already. It's called a money-printing machine.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: misle

....
"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

No fucking kidding. Cut spending.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Fern

VAT style national sales tax being considered...quietly

^The best plan I've heard of to bring the Repubs back into power.

Fern

Like the Republicans would repeal it? Its just more money for wars and Jesus!

Yeah, I think they would.

Actually "repeal" might be misleading. They'd just cancel it; VAT is a b1tch to implement and will take considerable time to do so. They could be back in power and stop it before anybody ever paid it..

V.A.T. is far, far more complicated than most people realize. When I was working in international taxation in Paris (France) there were more people working in the VAT division than all the income tax divisions (international, domestic, corporations, individuals etc)combined.

You wanna see the size of the IRS explode? - Just start a VAT style tax.

You wanna see a huge new burden on companies and business? - Just start a VAT tax.

You wanna see a lot of tax cheating? - Just start a VAT tax.

Most companies are doing well if their net (taxable) profit is 8% of gross sales; income tax is 35% of that 8%. A VAT tax of 10-15% applied on gross sales and would be many, many times greater than their income tax could ever be.

You wanna see tax complexites? - Start a VAT tax. E.g., people aren't gonna like paying VAT on medicine. You say just exempt medicine? Not that easy, the cardbord boxes, paper used in labels, plastic in bottles etc used in manufacturing and packaging medication will have to be exempt. Makes a sh1t-ton of work for cardbord, paper and plastic manufacturer etc to figure out who and what to charge VAT on.

Fern

 

[waggy]

man i was just thinking. i don't pay enough in tax! great idea a VAT just what we need! im so going to spend more money now!

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Is there anyone in Congress who, God forbid, thinks the problem is not that they don't have enough money, but that they spend too much?

No.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: waggy
man i was just thinking. i don't pay enough in tax! great idea a VAT just what we need! im so going to spend more money now!

Well, Colin Powell volunteered you.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Well now that Obama has cut government spending to the bone. What other options do we have here?

 

[mstersmith]

Originally posted by: waggy
man i was just thinking. i don't pay enough in tax! great idea a VAT just what we need! im so going to spend more money now!

^This

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: misle

....
"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

No fucking kidding. Cut spending.

Only for the other guys pet projects - NIMBY syndrome

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Is there anyone in Congress who, God forbid, thinks the problem is not that they don't have enough money, but that they spend too much?

Yes and he was labeled a crazy person(ron paul).

 

[little elvis]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Of course it would be in addition, it will replace nothing. I see it as almost inevitable. Most other western countries do it, right? In Canada there is a 15% tax, which is a combo of federal and provincial.

Not all Provinces have the same sales tax structure.

Combined Sales Tax
Alberta - 5%
Ontario - 13%
BC - 12 %
Saskatchewan - 10%
Manitoba - 12%
PEI - 15.5%
New Brunswick - 13%
Nova Scotia - 13%
Newfoundland - 13%
Quebec - 12.875% --- WTF apparently the tax they federal tax!!?

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: misle

....
"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

No fucking kidding. Cut spending.

Only for the other guys pet projects - NIMBY syndrome

I don't think that would be quite the right application of NIMBY.