Valve - DoTA

crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
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To give a bit more insight on the situation:

DotA was created and maintained by a guy named Guinsoo for the first few years of it's life and Pendragon ran the most popular DotA community website. But both of them publicly gave up on the project aroun 2005 to go create Riot Games and develop their popular title League of Legends. IceFrog picked up the development of DotA after and continued updating it until Valve hired him.

So now Valve has filed for the trademark on the name DotA. It's a big deal since most games in the genre call themselves "Dota-likes" or just call the genre dota in general (instead of the more obscure MOBA classification). Of course, Riot Games and other DotA-like game developers do not want to be locked out of that designation. So Riot Games is counter-filing and state that if they win the trademark that the name of DotA will be free for all to use. But it's going to be a case of who has the stronger claim on the name.

Guinsoo - Original developer of DotA, but publically renounced his part on the project in 2005 which may be what seals this case shut. Had he never made a public forums post about it his case would be much more solid.

IceFrog - Picked up and maintained DotA after Guinsoo left. DotA arguably went through it's greatest expansion in popularity during his time in developing it.

But US trademark/patent law is incredibly complex. I doubt Valve has any real interest in potentially alienating customers and maybe this will get settled out of court.
 

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,315
2
0
I'm actually surprised that Blizzard doesn't include something in their software license agreement that gives them rights to anything created using their map editor and distributed via Battle.net.
 

mb

Lifer
Jun 27, 2004
10,234
2
71
Steve Mescon, pictured below, was unavailable for comment. His mommy said he was "busy."





Waaambulance.jpg
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,709
871
126
I'm sure we'll see DoTA type game for SC2. Now that you can sell maps on bnet, I would expect a polished version.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,736
447
126
Unless the IP laws have changed in the last 6 months or so since I learned a bit about them... you can't get a trademark just because you want one (ie to block somebody else). In order to be granted a trademark you have to show that it's an original name and (this is important) you plan to use that name commercially. You have a certain amount of time to bring a product to market with that name, after which you may file for extension if you have proof that you've been working on said product but you just didn't get it to market yet. If you DON'T have a commercial interest in the name it won't be granted.

I don't see Valve having any trouble getting this trademark above these other guys. They plan on using it, the mod makers just plan on slowing things down... which is NOT grounds for granting a trademark.
 

simonizor

Golden Member
Feb 8, 2010
1,312
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I do agree that Valve should not be able to copyright DoTA as the idea was made a few years ago, and for anyone that knows anything about copyright law, as soon as you express your idea publicly (such as releasing the DoTA map), it is automatically protected by copyright. You do not have to file for a copyright for it to be protected.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea-expression_divide]Wikipedia[/url] said:
In the English decision of Donoghue v. Allied Newspapers Limited (1938) Ch 106, the court illustrated the concept by stating that "the person who has clothed the idea in form, whether by means of a picture, a play or a book" owns the copyright.

I think the same thing would apply to a Warcraft III map.
 

xCxStylex

Senior member
Apr 6, 2003
710
0
0
Mostly correct, but not entirely.

The first versions of DoTA in War3 Reign of Chaos (Vanilla war3) were created by Eul. The original Anti-mage (mageslayer / demon hunter) was named Eul, not this "Magina" crap that he is now. I used to play TONS of old school DoTA back in the day.

When War3: Frozen Throne came out, that's when Guinsoo developed DoTA: All Stars. I'm not entirely sure about this though, I stopped playing DoTA when FT came out and didn't start again until late 2006. I missed an entire 2 years of it's development.

Later on, with version 6++ Icefrog picked up Dota.


Also, I think saying that "Riot Games" is trying to copyright it is kind of misleading. As I understand, it's Guinsoo and Pendragon that are trying to copy right it, not Riot Games itself, even though they now work for Riot.


Here are my personal opinions on it. I hope that the name DoTA remains public domain as a mod. My personal hopes are that no *one specifically profits* from the name, ESPECIALLY not a corporation like Valve or Riot Games, even though the three developers Eul / Guinsoo / IceFrog have put in tons and tons of their personal time and now work for these companies.









To give a bit more insight on the situation:

DotA was created and maintained by a guy named Guinsoo for the first few years of it's life and Pendragon ran the most popular DotA community website. But both of them publicly gave up on the project aroun 2005 to go create Riot Games and develop their popular title League of Legends. IceFrog picked up the development of DotA after and continued updating it until Valve hired him.

So now Valve has filed for the trademark on the name DotA. It's a big deal since most games in the genre call themselves "Dota-likes" or just call the genre dota in general (instead of the more obscure MOBA classification). Of course, Riot Games and other DotA-like game developers do not want to be locked out of that designation. So Riot Games is counter-filing and state that if they win the trademark that the name of DotA will be free for all to use. But it's going to be a case of who has the stronger claim on the name.

Guinsoo - Original developer of DotA, but publically renounced his part on the project in 2005 which may be what seals this case shut. Had he never made a public forums post about it his case would be much more solid.

IceFrog - Picked up and maintained DotA after Guinsoo left. DotA arguably went through it's greatest expansion in popularity during his time in developing it.

But US trademark/patent law is incredibly complex. I doubt Valve has any real interest in potentially alienating customers and maybe this will get settled out of court.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,736
447
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I do agree that Valve should not be able to copyright DoTA as the idea was made a few years ago, and for anyone that knows anything about copyright law, as soon as you express your idea publicly (such as releasing the DoTA map), it is automatically protected by copyright. You do not have to file for a copyright for it to be protected.



I think the same thing would apply to a Warcraft III map.

Copyright? I thought they were looking to trademark? They're very different things with different laws.

Edit: yup, it's only a trademark... Not sure why so many here and at the link are jumping to the copyright conclusion.
 
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simonizor

Golden Member
Feb 8, 2010
1,312
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0
Copyright? I thought they were looking to trademark? They're very different things with different laws.

Edit: yup, it's only a trademark... Not sure why so many here and at the link are jumping to the copyright conclusion.

Well, I'm not entirely sure how it works, but if something is copyrighted, wouldn't that stop people from trademarking it in their name? I don't see why someone would be able to trademark something that's copyrighted...
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,736
447
126
Well, I'm not entirely sure how it works, but if something is copyrighted, wouldn't that stop people from trademarking it in their name? I don't see why someone would be able to trademark something that's copyrighted...

Trademark involves nothing more than the use of a name. It's used for brand recognition and advertisement basically.

Copyright gives the original author reign over use and distribution of their work including books, music, and all sorts of stuff including software. It has to be truly original though, and not merely a reuse of another game which a mod is.

I'm not an expert here, but a trademark isn't much more than a registered name for business use.
 

novasatori

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
3,851
1
0
Is there no prior art type deal for trademarks?

It would seem reasonable to me that neither valve nor riot should be able to take DoTA and trademark it, considering it was in use in the public domain well before either decided to try.

Especially given the complexities of the map development and all of those involved.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
Is there no prior art type deal for trademarks?

It would seem reasonable to me that neither valve nor riot should be able to take DoTA and trademark it, considering it was in use in the public domain well before either decided to try.

Especially given the complexities of the map development and all of those involved.

I suspect this may be the case. You can't trademark something that is in general widespread/public use already AFAIK. Even if you already have something trademarked, allowing it to become a general term after its been trademarked has been grounds for losing rights to it as a trademark in the past. How they will rule on this I'm not certain, but its certainly not a guarantee at this point that Valve could get the trademark even without Riot/Mescon fighting for it. I suspect their intent is more to bring to the light how wisdespread DotA is as a term already (which would prevent Valve from getting it) rather than make a real attempt to trademark it themselves.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,979
3
71
I am interested, but need more info. Are they going to create their own Fantasy-RTS world for it?

Is it going to be not only polished, but engaging as well? Will it not just be the same old thing re-hashed but a legitimate game worth spending 5-20 bucks (I'm assuming that's what they're selling it as).

What exactly would urge me to get this over just reinstalling WC3+ modding?
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
I am interested, but need more info. Are they going to create their own Fantasy-RTS world for it?

Is it going to be not only polished, but engaging as well? Will it not just be the same old thing re-hashed but a legitimate game worth spending 5-20 bucks (I'm assuming that's what they're selling it as).

What exactly would urge me to get this over just reinstalling WC3+ modding?

It will have the valve effect applied to it..for me this is a no brainer purchase
 

Firsttime

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2005
2,517
0
71
I want to see how this ends up. I played Dota a lot for 3-4 years but since LoL, HoN, etc started coming out there has been a very noticeable split in the community. If they are going to move from the WC3 version, which is still the most solid version of the game imo, I want to see which one the community moves to first.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,979
3
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It will have the valve effect applied to it..for me this is a no brainer purchase

But what does that mean? Is it going to be a shiny graphics engine + new back story + new art style?

Any combination of the three? DOTA looks and sounds cool, it's just that I'm kinda tired of cartoons dominating everything. Considering Valve made TF2 a cartoon fest, I'm not sure they'll not do the same here.
 

simonizor

Golden Member
Feb 8, 2010
1,312
0
0
But what does that mean? Is it going to be a shiny graphics engine + new back story + new art style?

Any combination of the three? DOTA looks and sounds cool, it's just that I'm kinda tired of cartoons dominating everything. Considering Valve made TF2 a cartoon fest, I'm not sure they'll not do the same here.

So you think that just because they're released one game in cartoon style out of all of the games that they've released, all of the following games will be in this style? That's one of the worst assumptions I've heard in a while.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,979
3
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So you think that just because they're released one game in cartoon style out of all of the games that they've released, all of the following games will be in this style? That's one of the worst assumptions I've heard in a while.

I wasn't saying they wouldn't, I was merely saying that DOTA in its current form is based on the WC3 engine which has a very cartoony artistic vision.

Given that Valve is no stranger to making cartoony games (ala TF2) I thought it might be that Valve might make a cartoony DOTA, but I'd be interested in seeing them make a DOTA with a more "high art" style.
 

A_Dying_Wren

Member
Apr 30, 2010
98
0
0
I'm surprised no one has brought up how neither Valve nor LoL or HoN or whatever have the rights to the name DoTa. It's blizzard who I think owns the right to the title. Its stated in the EULA that all custom maps made for W3 are technically the property of Blizzard. Granted, Blizzard can't patent a whole mode of gaming but I'm inclined to think they could very successfully argue they "own" DoTa at least the versions on W3 plus the name.

That said, it'd be pretty stupid for them to get involved in the matter what with two very well established cash cows in WoW and SC2.

On topic, I'm surprised Valve is trying to patent the name "DoTa". I'd 100% rather they came up with something more original like what LoL did to an extent. Nonetheless, I think Valve will probably win this one or settle it out of court (i.e. they can call the game DoTa but make no claim on owning the whole genre colloquially called "Dota")
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
I thought you couldn't trademark something, or could lose a trademark, if it entered into common use.
I would think that since DoTA was never trademarked befor enow, it's not basically common use as a term for a certain type of game, so it might be quite difficult to get a trademark for it now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark


The fact that there is no trademark and it's already become generic means it might be difficult to now successfully get a trademark for it.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,979
3
71
at this point Idk why you guys are arguing over the dumbest shit.

Who gives a flying crap if Valve patents DOTA other than the fact they'll be making (presumably) an RTS game (their first??)

You guys are arguing over incredibly banal shit like copyright law. How many bloody laws and regulations exist about trademarks and IPs etc? Tons.

If someone takes a fucking issue with it, they'll fight it/sue Valve. Until then, any discussion about this other than the gameplay/game is incredibly futile and a massive waste of everyone's time who comes to this thread looking for stories/updates about the actual Game
 

novasatori

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
3,851
1
0
at this point Idk why you guys are arguing over the dumbest shit.

Who gives a flying crap if Valve patents DOTA other than the fact they'll be making (presumably) an RTS game (their first??)

You guys are arguing over incredibly banal shit like copyright law. How many bloody laws and regulations exist about trademarks and IPs etc? Tons.

If someone takes a fucking issue with it, they'll fight it/sue Valve. Until then, any discussion about this other than the gameplay/game is incredibly futile and a massive waste of everyone's time who comes to this thread looking for stories/updates about the actual Game

Because that's kind of what the topic is about, not the actual game.

AFAIK there isn't really any info about the actual game yet.