Value Proposition of Pascal Titan X

[Elfear]

I don't want to turn this into a thread to complain about the prices of Nvidia cards, we have other threads for that. What I would like is people's thoughts on whether the new Titan X would be a smart purchase when it releases next month.

What got me thinking about it is the fact that after a little over a year, I will probably lose $300 if I sold my 980Ti right now (bought for $600 and after fees and shipping I'm probably looking at $300-325). The Titan cards seem to hold their value really well compared to other high end cards. Used Titan X cards are still selling regularly for $850-900 on Ebay. Even after selling costs, you're probably looking at 75% of the original value.

I expect Vega to launch by the end of the year or Q1 2017. As much as I want for it to be a huge success to start gaining back market share, I don't think it will be as powerful as the Titan X (probably more like the 1080 if I had to guess). That means we'll be stuck with the Titan X as the top performer until Volta drops in 2018 (based on Nvidia's roadmap), AMD releases something to counter GP102, or the possibility of a 1080Ti that performs very close to the Titan X (unlikely unless AMD counters with something close to Titan X performance). IMO that means the Titan X will be top dog or very close to for a good 1.5yrs.

Buying a Titan X at release and then selling at 75% of the value in 1.5yrs means I'll lose around $300, the same amount as I'd lose on my 980Ti if I sold it now. As much as it rubs me the wrong way to support Nvidia's price gouging, I could still have great performance for quite a while for ~$300.

Thoughts?

 

[boozzer]

why are titans holding their value? and are they actually selling them at 75% after a year or more? doesn't it's value 100% wholly depends on how much performance vega gives? that is a big unknown.

if you are 100% sure 1200$ titan x can be sold 1.5 years from now on for 1000$ you can afford it, you want it, go for it.

 

[SolMiester]

I don't think their is any monetary value in new tech, only the value, in its use to you.
As an aside, Microsoft just increased their o365 subs by 20-22%....Can you imagine that, what a hike!

 

[Silverforce11]

The question is why Titan X held it's value, when custom 980Ti is faster and goes for $300 to $349? Is it just the 12GB vram? Because Titan X has no special FP64 throughput.

The same for this Pascal's Titan X, it's a raw gaming chip GP102.

This time around, the 1080Ti is not likely to have less vram, 6/12GB and its not going to be 6GB.

I understand the Kepler Titan held it's value due to FP64 and it's usefulness for CUDA.

 

[JAG87]

There is never a long term value proposition for a flagship product. It almost always has the lowest performance per $, and it always devalues the most once something better comes out. There are no exception to this besides collector items. Having said that, if you want it and can afford it, there is no reason you shouldn't buy it. Just don't ever try to justify it's value, it's all about what it can do TODAY not in the future.

 

[ZGR]

I find it tempting to buy 1 or 2 Pascal Titan X's and immediately flip them on Ebay for a profit. Spending $1200 for my entertainment would make me feel cheated. The $999 OG Titan left the same bad taste in my mouth.

Coincidentally, a buddy of mine is still using his OG Titan that he bought around the GTX 780 release. He even plays the latest games. Although he is at 1080p, I find it interesting to hold onto that Titan for so many years. Do you think he got his money's worth? I don't. Having owned the R9 290, I consider that a far superior product when it comes to gaming performance and ability.

He still yhinks his Titan runs circles around my old R9 290 Tri X simply due to brand perception. That is why the Titan holds its value so well. Its performance isn't the main reason people want one. Being a Halo product lets the Titan enjoy a high resale value. Nvidia is doing really well at making the Titan seem like a card with a long shelf life, even if a comparable AMD card comes out at a cheaper price.

 

[ZGR]

I understand the Kepler Titan held it's value due to FP64 and it's usefulness for CUDA.

I kept defending the OG Titan because of that. When Nvidia dropped FP64 for the Titan I gave up calling it a "Prosumer" GPU. Yet we still see Maxwell Titan hold its value well for some reason.

 

[littleg]

I find it tempting to buy 1 or 2 Pascal Titan X's and immediately flip them on Ebay for a profit. Spending $1200 for my entertainment would make me feel cheated. The $999 OG Titan left the same bad taste in my mouth.

Coincidentally, a buddy of mine is still using his OG Titan that he bought around the GTX 780 release. He even plays the latest games. Although he is at 1080p, I find it interesting to hold onto that Titan for so many years. Do you think he got his money's worth? I don't. Having owned the R9 290, I consider that a far superior product when it comes to gaming performance and ability.

He still yhinks his Titan runs circles around my old R9 290 Tri X simply due to brand perception. That is why the Titan holds its value so well. Its performance isn't the main reason people want one. Being a Halo product lets the Titan enjoy a high resale value. Nvidia is doing really well at making the Titan seem like a card with a long shelf life, even if a comparable AMD card comes out at a cheaper price.

This is spot on imo. If it was a 990GTX it wouldn't have the same cachet as it does. It's branded and marketed separately to keep it apart from the Geforce line and so it still invokes that 'Titan' prestige even when it's become outdated.

I suspect AMD are trying to do something similar with the 'Fury' name but they haven't got it quite right.

 

[railven]

Why do Titan's hold their value? Easy - perception.

Where as other cards get price cuts, Titan's don't and usually stay at their launch price until superseded by the next Titan.

Owners maintain that price. If you had a bunch of people running out to sell their Titans for 40-60% of their launch value, you'd see more of them 2nd hand going for that price. But those users want to get back as much as possible. Chances are selling a Titan for 75%+ of it's initial value is hard. I don't see buyers lining up to buy Titan's once another flavor of that chip hits the market.

I also wouldn't be looking to buy a Titan if I was worried about it's resale price. There is a high chance you're stuck with it. Haha.

EDIT:

I suspect AMD are trying to do something similar with the 'Fury' name but they haven't got it quite right.

I thought the exact same thing for Fury, but moment they priced it against 980 Ti, they lost that perception. It was just another Radeon in the stack.

Original Fury X - $800-900 MSRP - put against Titan X - limited run, most likely sell everything made
Original Fury - $450-550 - should have been named Radeon R9 490X.
Original Fury Nano - $400-450 - should have been named R9 490.

Fury keeps it's own tier/name/brand perception.

 

[Silverforce11]

Why do people have that perception? Titan X is slower than many custom 980Ti that's half it's price. Or even less on ebay now.

Are the masses just that uninformed?

 

[x3sphere]

Prices on eBay are all over the place.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nvidia-GTX-Titan-X-12GB-/191929516283?hash=item2cafe400fb:g:1t4AAOSwhMFXk3To

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nvidia-GTX-Titan-X-12GB-/191929517545?hash=item2cafe405e9:g:7aAAAOSw0fhXk3dk

http://www.ebay.com/itm/nVidia-Gefo...625331?hash=item281c6d6d73:g:9XUAAOSwdzVXiq85

These went for $450, $400

But there are many that also went for $700-800, pretty weird. Maybe I should snatch these $400 Titans and resell them

 

[sirmo]

Dollar/frame on these enthusiast cards is pretty terrible.. people buy them for bragging rights.. It's definitely not a smart purchase from a value perspective. And the bragging right is pretty short lived.. a 1060 today beats the original Titan which really wasn't that long ago.

 

[alcoholbob]

I sold my original Titan a year after it came out for $770 and the Titan X for $910 even after 980 Ti was released. Its not too big of a loss % wise but the Titan isnt a card you buy for resale value, its for absolute need.

If you absolutely need it for 144hz 1440p or 4k60 performance, it might be worth it. But its worth noting this is ala Kepler a cut down Titan, and the 1080Ti might have just as many cores and theres probably going to be a Titan X Black. So retail value will definitely drop with new releases because its not the full chip.

 

[Eymar]

I sold my original Titan a year after it came out for $770 and the Titan X for $910 even after 980 Ti was released. Its not too big of a loss % wise but the Titan isnt a card you buy for resale value, its for absolute need.

If you absolutely need it for 144hz 1440p or 4k60 performance, it might be worth it. But its worth noting this is ala Kepler a cut down Titan, and the 1080Ti might have just as many cores and theres probably going to be a Titan X Black. So retail value will definitely drop with new releases because its not the full chip.

This. If someone depends on reselling videocard for upgrades then Titan series is not for them. Titan owners either always buy the best regardless of cost or have a specific need at the time (and Ti version not available yet). I'd assume people with a lot of disposable income have more money than time so rather enjoy purchase now rather than wait for better deal.

 

[railven]

Why do people have that perception? Titan X is slower than many custom 980Ti that's half it's price. Or even less on ebay now.

Are the masses just that uninformed?

Because value doesn't come from performance or end results. It's something a lot of people here don't seem to understand or just don't want tp. RS made a great post using simple things like tooth paste.

You can argue it isn't logical or based on science, it isn't, but that's how perception of value works. Look at the products that sell for premium dollars - outside of certain genres they are often run of the mill products, it's just the name and association that is tied to them that make them carry/hold that premium.

Like I said using Fury, AMD did absolutely nothing to create that perception. They put their "premium" brand against Nvidia's standard brand from the very start. Started price cutting it to stay competitive and now it's basically looked at as the top tier for Radeons. Not it's own distinctive brand/flavor.

Nvidia never did that to Titan. From the get-go it was a new brand/tier. People on forums reasoned it's price, but that was never the intention. And frankly it worked. Now Titan is seen as a different product, not even a GeForce. And it will stand about other GeForce products.

Value is subjective. One of the biggest flaws I've started to see coming from the AMD camp is this down playing of value. Value != cost. And it will vary from person to person. Someone will pay good money for a Titan product. NV knows this, and is catering to them. That's good business. For everyone else, they'll have a GeForce variant of the same chip ready to be sold.

EDIT:

This. If someone depends on reselling videocard for upgrades then Titan series is not for them. Titan owners either always buy the best regardless of cost or have a specific need at the time (and Ti version not available yet). I'd assume people with a lot of disposable income have more money than time so rather enjoy purchase now rather than wait for better deal.

Some of the worst times I've had was trying to follow what RS pushes, reselling cards at optimal points to increase funds for the next purchase. I think I'd rather just buy what I can within my means and enjoyment. I pass my cards around the family end of the day and I strongly regret selling off that 7970+Accelero I had (not even because of the improvements, but because it was a damn good card.)

 

[sirmo]

Because value doesn't come from performance or end results. It's something a lot of people here don't seem to understand or just don't want tp. RS made a great post using simple things like tooth paste.

You can argue it isn't logical or based on science, it isn't, but that's how perception of value works. Look at the products that sell for premium dollars - outside of certain genres they are often run of the mill products, it's just the name and association that is tied to them that make them carry/hold that premium.

Like I said using Fury, AMD did absolutely nothing to create that perception. They put their "premium" brand against Nvidia's standard brand from the very start. Started price cutting it to stay competitive and now it's basically looked at as the top tier for Radeons. Not it's own distinctive brand/flavor.

Nvidia never did that to Titan. From the get-go it was a new brand/tier. People on forums reasoned it's price, but that was never the intention. And frankly it worked. Now Titan is seen as a different product, not even a GeForce. And it will stand about other GeForce products.

Value is subjective. One of the biggest flaws I've started to see coming from the AMD camp is this down playing of value. Value != cost. And it will vary from person to person. Someone will pay good money for a Titan product. NV knows this, and is catering to them. That's good business. For everyone else, they'll have a GeForce variant of the same chip ready to be sold.

EDIT:



Some of the worst times I've had was trying to follow what RS pushes, reselling cards at optimal points to increase funds for the next purchase. I think I'd rather just buy what I can within my means and enjoyment. I pass my cards around the family end of the day and I strongly regret selling off that 7970+Accelero I had (not even because of the improvements, but because it was a damn good card.)

Fury X was absolutely a revolutionary product.. can't tell me HBM isn't a pretty sexy technology. It's objectively and technologically a far more advanced product than any Titan Nvidia has ever produced.

The problem is brand recognition which AMD doesn't have.

Masses look at Nvidia and AMD differently and some of it is AMD's own fault.. I think Bulldozer has really tarnished their reputation and hurt their brand image.

From a technological stand point I look at this Titan and all I see is a GPU with more CUDA cores.. nothing special about it other than that. There is nothing in the Titan X that's cooler than what 1060 has, It's just bigger.

 

[alcoholbob]

Also we need to see reviews first and see how well this card overclocks. At stock clocks its basically just a 2ghz 1080. I see this card only justifiable if it can also hit 1.95-2ghz easily (with proper cooling).

 

[railven]

Fury X was absolutely a revolutionary product.. can't tell me HBM isn't a pretty sexy technology. It's objectively and technologically a far more advanced product than any Titan Nvidia has ever produced.

T'was but in AMD handled poorly.

The problem is brand recognition which AMD doesn't have.

And they seem in no rush to gain any. Which boggles my mind.

Masses look at Nvidia and AMD differently and some of it is AMD's own fault.. I think Bulldozer has really tarnished their reputation and hurt their brand image.

Some of it? They axed ATI because "AMD is a stronger brand name" eyah sure. My loyalty basically ended there.

AMD was racing to the bottom even before Bulldozer. Not sure if you were around during that forum invasion marketing tactic of "buy a dual core, unlock third even fourth core!" It was almost on every tech forum I visited. That is not how you build perception/brand.

From a technological stand point I look at this Titan and all I see is a GPU with more CUDA cores.. nothing special about it other than that. There is nothing in the Titan X that's cooler than what 1060 has, It's just bigger.

Thus this product is not for you.

 

[sirmo]

T'was but in AMD handled poorly.



And they seem in no rush to gain any. Which boggles my mind.



Some of it? They axed ATI because "AMD is a stronger brand name" eyah sure. My loyalty basically ended there.

AMD was racing to the bottom even before Bulldozer. Not sure if you were around during that forum invasion marketing tactic of "buy a dual core, unlock third even fourth core!" It was almost on every tech forum I visited. That is not how you build perception/brand.



Thus this product is not for you.

I was around far before then.. I've been in this game longer than most, my first PC build was an AT 286 back in 1990.. AMD is on a right track.. they are a much smaller company now then they used to be.

Also I don't easily fall for Nvidia's marketing.

 

[Grooveriding]

I wouldn't use ebay to gauge resale value. It is a really inconsistent platform and prices, veracity of auctions and how that reflects on how your sale will go is not going to be consistent. Won't go into a rant on ebay, but I don't use it anymore personally.

I would check very active FS/T forums for tech items to get a sense of how much you can fetch resale wise for one of these cards. Titan X may resell well to uninformed buyers who believe it is some sort of pedigree card. I doubt an enthusiast would pay more than $400-$500 for one though. It's slower than a lot of the aftermarket 980tis and is old tech now. I have a hard time believing anyone would actually pay $900 for one.

If you managed to time resale of one of these new Pascal Titans right. Generally before a better card is announced, you could come out ahead. I would be wary of resale on this new Titan though. If it is using a cut down chip, nvidia will be releasing another Titan with the full chip at some point and that will really hurt resale on this card imo, as it is just a gaming card without any DP capability. There will also be a geforce variant of the GP102. If it turns out like the 780ti was vs OG Titan, that is going to hurt resale even more.

I really think you shouldn't consider value when you buy a Titan. Whenever I've bought them I've just gone into it knowing I'm getting a bad value, but wanted the performance right away. That's what Titan is about to nvidia; selling you the real flagship as soon as they have it ready at a huge premium. You know there will be something just as good coming not long after, but you want it now and the premium is there to capitalize on those who will pay to have it right away and don't want to wait for a less expensive card with the same flagship GPU.

 

[railven]

I was around far before then.. I've been in this game longer than most, my first PC build was an AT 286 back in 1990.. AMD is on a right track.. they are a much smaller company now then they used to be.

Then you are well aware of AMD's history.

Also I don't easily fall for Nvidia's marketing.

That passive aggressive comment!

 

[sirmo]

Then you are well aware of AMD's history.



That passive aggressive comment!

It's only passive aggressive if you feel like I am calling you out.. But I'm not. $1200 Titan X: The Ultimate is marketing. And I've already explained why.

 

[Elfear]

I wouldn't use ebay to gauge resale value. It is a really inconsistent platform and prices, veracity of auctions and how that reflects on how your sale will go is not going to be consistent. Won't go into a rant on ebay, but I don't use it anymore personally.

I would check very active FS/T forums for tech items to get a sense of how much you can fetch resale wise for one of these cards. Titan X may resell well to uninformed buyers who believe it is some sort of pedigree card. I doubt an enthusiast would pay more than $400-$500 for one though. It's slower than a lot of the aftermarket 980tis and is old tech now. I have a hard time believing anyone would actually pay $900 for one.

If you managed to time resale of one of these new Pascal Titans right. Generally before a better card is announced, you could come out ahead. I would be wary of resale on this new Titan though. If it is using a cut down chip, nvidia will be releasing another Titan with the full chip at some point and that will really hurt resale on this card imo, as it is just a gaming card without any DP capability. There will also be a geforce variant of the GP102. If it turns out like the 780ti was vs OG Titan, that is going to hurt resale even more.

I really think you shouldn't consider value when you buy a Titan. Whenever I've bought them I've just gone into it knowing I'm getting a bad value, but wanted the performance right away. That's what Titan is about to nvidia; selling you the real flagship as soon as they have it ready at a huge premium. You know there will be something just as good coming not long after, but you want it now and the premium is there to capitalize on those who will pay to have it right away and don't want to wait for a less expensive card with the same flagship GPU.

I agree, from an enthusiast perspective I don't know why anyone would pay 75-85% of the Titan X value when there are faster AIB 980Tis and now the 1070/1080 cards. If you check the completed ads on Ebay, there were quite a few that sold for $750-900 in the last few weeks.

If the resale value of the Titan line isn't as strong as I've been thinking, I don't want to risk losing $500-600 in 1.5yrs. I can afford it but my inner Scrooge won't let me do it.

So basically we have to hope for a miracle with Vega in the next 6-8 months or that Nvidia will still release the 1080Ti even if AMD doesn't bring a worthy competitor to the table. Sounds like I may have this 980Ti for awhile. (#firstworldproblems).

 

[rgallant]

there will be more than one big die 14-16 ff released so why focus on the Titan ?
the others coming will be sub $1200 imo

 

[Elfear]

there will be more than one big die 14-16 ff released so why focus on the Titan ?
the others coming will be sub $1200 imo

The questions is when? The trend in the past has been for Nvidia to release a cheaper card very close in performance to the Titan (780 and 980Ti) within a few months of the Titan. But they had some good competition from AMD at the time as well. I'm crossing my fingers that AMD will knock one out of the park with Vega, but if that doesn't happen, we could be waiting until 2018 for a card substantially faster than the 1080 for less than $1000.