V-22 Osprey to finally see combat. Sort of. Well, not really.

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/14/business/14osprey.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Combat, With Limits, Looms for Hybrid Aircraft
By LESLIE WAYNE
The Marine Corps said yesterday that the V-22 Osprey, a hybrid aircraft with a troubled past, will be sent to Iraq this September, where it will see combat for the first time.

But because of a checkered safety record in test flights, the V-22 will be kept on a short leash.

The Pentagon has placed so many restrictions on how it can be used in combat that the plane ? which is able to drop troops into battle like a helicopter and then speed away from danger like an airplane ? could have difficulty fulfilling the Marines? longstanding mission for it.

In Iraq, the V-22 will begin to replace the Vietnam-era helicopters that are increasingly facing enemy fire. The limitations on the V-22, which cost $80 million apiece, mean it cannot evade enemy fire with the same maneuvers and sharp turns used by helicopter pilots.

As a result, the craft could be more vulnerable to attack, and may result in the Marines keeping it out of the thick of battle, using it instead for less dangerous tasks.

?They will plan their missions in Iraq to avoid it getting into areas where there are serious threats,? said Thomas Christie, the Pentagon?s director of operations, test and evaluation from 2001 to 2005, who is now retired. The V-22?s debut in combatends a remarkable 25-year struggle for the Marines to build a craft they could call their own.

In announcing the Iraq deployment yesterday, Gen. James T. Conway, the Marine Corps? commandant, referred to those efforts as ?a road marked by some setbacks, lots of sacrifices and the success of these Marines standing before you.?

The V-22 has been the Marines? top priority ? the Pentagon has spent $20 billion so far and has budgeted $54.6 billion for it. The money has bought a craft that is half-helicopter, half-airplane and whose speed, say the Marines, will save lives.

But the V-22 has also suffered some of the deadliest test crashes in Marine history. It has claimed 30 lives, 26 of them marines, in three test flight crashes. A fourth V-22 crashed, but there were no deaths then. Many more have been damaged in lesser incidents involving fires, stalled engines and software glitches.

Critics say the V-22?s unusual design can create deadly problems that the Marines have minimized in their single-minded pursuit of the craft.

?It?s like a bad poker hand, and the Marines have been investing in it for 20 years,? said Philip Coyle, the Pentagon?s top weapons tester from 1994 to 2001. ?They might have been better if they invested in brand new helicopters.?

The plane?s most widely cited design problem is that one of its propellers can get caught in its own turbulence as it comes in for a landing, and that can cause the V-22 to roll over and head into the ground.

For that reason, V-22 pilots are trained to steer clear of their own turbulence by rules prohibiting them from making the quick maneuvers used by helicopters to evade enemy fire. Instead, the V-22 must land at speeds as slow as nine miles an hour and in a fairly straight line.

A 2005 Pentagon report said these limitations ?may prove insufficient? in protecting the V-22 from ground fire. As a result, that Pentagon evaluation said the V-22 was suited only for low- and medium-threat environments, and is not ?operationally effective? in high-threat environments.

Some critics say that in the heat of battle, V-22 pilots could forget these restrictions and move in ways that could bring the craft down.

?The V-22 cannot do radical evasive maneuvers? said Lee Gaillard, author of a report critical of the V-22, ?Wonder Weapon or Widow Maker? for the Center for Defense Information, which studies weapons programs. ?But that?s what it will need for combat.?

The Marines defend the V-22 by saying it provides a margin of safety a helicopter cannot because it can fly faster, farther and higher.

They say it can get to wounded troops quicker and speed them to medical care in what is called the ?golden hour? when life can hang in the balance. Because the V-22 flies with a lower ?acoustical signature,? it can enter a battlefield less noisily than a helicopter.

Officials add that the Osprey can do more evasive maneuvers than currently permitted ? and further testing will prove that.

?If flies twice as fast as the CH-46 that it is replacing,? said Lt. Gen. John Castellaw, head of the Marine aviation program. ?It carries three times the payload; it goes five times as far; it?s six times as survivable. So what you?re deploying is an asset that increases the combat capability of the Marines.?

?That?s what you want to do,? added General Castellaw. ?Give them the best you can.?

Col. Mathew Mulhern, the Pentagon?s V-22 program officer, whose Patuxent River office has an ?Osprey Country? sign, says marines cannot wait to get on board.

?Every marine who sees one, when they do, a light bulb comes on,? said Colonel Mulhern. ?They say, ?my God.? ?

Each V-22 costs about three times the price of a modern helicopter and nearly the same as a fighter jet. The Marines will get 360 Ospreys, Air Force Special Forces will get 50 and there will be 48 for the Navy.

The program?s high cost and uncertain technology led Vice President Dick Cheney, when he was secretary of defense under President George H. W. Bush, to try four times to cancel the program.

But, from 1989 to 1992, Mr. Cheney was beaten back by Congress. Work on the project ? the Boeing Company and Bell Helicopter Textron are the main contractors ? is spread across 40 states and 2,000 subcontractors, giving the V-22 broad support. More than 100 members of Congress even formed a Tiltrotor Technology Coalition to protect it.

?We have proven conclusively that this is an extraordinarily fine craft,? said Robert Leder, a spokesman for the Bell-Boeing V-22 program. ?It is a very safe craft and will be of tremendous service. ??

All new weapons have problems in testing. But critics say the V-22 is plagued with basic design problems.

Should the V-22 lose power, it can not ?autorotate? like a helicopter and allow the updraft of air to rotate its propellers for a hard, but survivable, landing. Because of this, according to the 2005 Pentagon report, emergency V-22 landings without power at altitudes below 1,600 feet ?are not likely to be survivable.?

?If you lose power on a V-22, you just burn and crash,? said one Pentagon official involved in testing the craft but who was not authorized to speak publicly. ?There is no way to survive. ?

The cabin is not pressurized, even though the craft can fly at altitudes of 10,000 feet and above, where breathing is difficult and it is not climate-controlled.

Pentagon reports also say the V-22 is too cramped for the 24 marines it can carry. The marines are so packed into the windowless cabin that they can become airsick, their legs can grow numb and leaving the plane quickly is difficult.

There is no bathroom on board and marines have criticized the ?piddle packs? they are to use as insufficient. And, there is no place on board to store them once they are full.

V-22 downdraft is so strong, and moves in so many directions that it can create ?brownout? conditions, making it difficult for pilots to see and potentially knocking down marines on the ground.

As a result, when rope ladders are used, the V-22 must hover at higher altitudes, making marines more vulnerable to fire.

?Safety is a big issue,? wrote one V-22 crew chief, in a questionnaire filled out for the Pentagon?s 2005 operational evaluation. ?If we had went down in the water we would have most likely lost at least 24 troops because of restricted egress. I felt like I was in a coffin.?

These are more than theoretical concerns. On April 8, 2000, 19 marines were killed in a training exercise when a V-22 descended too fast and crashed near Tucson. It was the third V-22 to crash ? seven people were killed in two previous crashes.

In December 2000, four more marines, including the program?s most experienced pilot, were killed in a crash caused by a burst hydraulic line and software problems.

These accidents led to program delays to make design changes. But as tests resumed, so have the problems.

Three engine fires occurred recently because of problems related to hydraulic lines. In March 2006, a computer problem led an idling V-22 to suddenly take off on its own. It then slammed into the ground, breaking off its right wing. All 54 V-22?s were grounded for weeks in February because of a faulty computer chip.

In preparation for deployment, the Pentagon ran tests last year in the New Mexico desert, similar to the climate of Iraq. In January, the Pentagon wrote about frequent failures with various parts and systems. The reason: ?Extended exposure to the desert operating environment.?

Because of these problems, Mr. Coyle, the former Pentagon weapons tester, predicted the Marines will use the V-22 to ferry troops from one relatively safe spot to another, like a flying truck.

?They don?t want to have a ?Black Hawk down,? ? he said. ?That would kill the program. Of course, it was not designed to be a truck. It was designed to be used in combat.?

The Marines say the V-22 will prove the critics wrong.

?Ask all the naysayers how many hours they have flown,? said Colonel Mulhern, the V-22 program manger.

?They are just sitting around a desk and crunching numbers,? he added. ?Go talk to the Marines. The V-22 has come of age. The first marine it saves makes it worth what we paid for it. And I have real confidence that the V-22 will do it.?

Fans include General Castellaw, a Vietnam helicopter pilot, who has flown the V-22.

?I came in at a high altitude and then did a tactical ingress,? said General Castellaw. ?Yankin? and bankin? to avoid simulated fire, came in low, streaked into the zone. The aircraft is nimble, agile. You can yank and bank with the best of them.

?I believe absolutely that this is the most survivable craft for the Marine Corps? most precious assets,? he added. ? If I did not believe that, I would not deploy it. I have absolute faith in the craft to do the mission.?




Back on 1983 someone came up with what looked like a great idea. The Marine Corps had been taking Army and Navy equipment and modifying it, repairing it and using it with stunning success at a very low cost. So the idea was to give the Marines their own chunk of money to spend it on a new system of their choosing. And they chose the tilt-rotor Osprey.
Now 25 years later it can only be used in low or no combat situations. Despite what the Marine Corps says about it being far more survivable than a helicopter, the lack of auto-rotational ability basically eliminates the helicopters most survival asset.
It is understandable that the Marines wanted to expand the range, speed and carrying ability of its primary vehichle to enter combat, the helicopter. And the Osprey promised that. And Marines were willing to give up the safety of autorotation because, well lets face it, Marines know that sometimes Marines die, and the advantages to carrying out a mission was worth the risk.
However, I hate to admit it, I agree with the biggest Dick in government, Cheney, on this one. (Cheney fought the Osprey until he caved to congressional pressure to continue the program).
So what do we have after 20 billion dollars already spent and another 54.6 billion in the budget to buy the Osprey? A vehicle that can't be used in combat. That has physical design limitations that can't be rectified without a complete redesign. And the Marines are still using Viet Nam era helicopters for combat assaults.
I wonder if buidling a new combat assualt helicopter will still be necessary? It seems so, since the Osprey isn't going into a hot LZ anytime in the future, and maybe never.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
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The V-22 is perhaps the most magnificent porkbarrel borne flying turd ever foisted off on the military- a solution looking for a problem, a disaster waiting for a place to happen.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
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106
Nice to see Congress is thinking of the troops first when pushing to save the program. They'll have blood on their hands when the first fully loaded one goes down in a combat situation.
 

k1pp3r

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
277
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Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Nice to see Congress is thinking of the troops first when pushing to save the program. They'll have blood on their hands when the first fully loaded one goes down in a combat situation.

They have worked a lot of the bugs out of the system, i don't think one has gone down since like 2000, look up the flight record yourself, or visit the other thread about this.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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Originally posted by: k1pp3r
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Nice to see Congress is thinking of the troops first when pushing to save the program. They'll have blood on their hands when the first fully loaded one goes down in a combat situation.

They have worked a lot of the bugs out of the system, i don't think one has gone down since like 2000, look up the flight record yourself, or visit the other thread about this.

Seems like fatal accidents typically led to redesigns AND protocols that limit how it can be maneuvered. Kind of like a NMD . . . after it fails the essay, the next exam is open-book, yes/no.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The V-22 is perhaps the most magnificent porkbarrel borne flying turd ever foisted off on the military- a solution looking for a problem, a disaster waiting for a place to happen.

I don't know about that. There is certainly a problem with the current troops transport methods. Planes are fast and have long range but are limited as to how and where they can drop off troops, while helicopters can drop off troops almost anywhere but are slow and have limited range. A hybrid aircraft with the benefits of both types of aircraft would be an excellent vehicle for the Marines, and something that is very much needed in modern warfare.

The problem is that the Osprey isn't really that aircraft. While it DOES hover like a helicopter and fly like an airplane, it also brings significant limitations from each type of vehicle to the mix. Most notably the inability of an airplane to quickly "dodge" enemy fire. Airplanes don't need to do that because they fly high and/or fast, but a helicopter is very vulnerable when landing, which is why the ability to quickly move is crucial. I'm not sure a perfect hybrid aircraft can be designed, but it would certainly be helpful if such a thing existed...but it looks less and less likely that the Osprey is that bird.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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You ever get the feeling that they would be better off taking everything they have learned from this thing and starting over from scratch?

It?s a great idea, but its execution has been a disaster.
 

tomywishbone

Golden Member
Oct 24, 2006
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The V-22 always made me laugh. Just watching the plane go through the transition from take-off to hoover to level flight is absurd. Why would any engineer think that design was reasonable?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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Another DoD money pit; they are just trying to save face after sinking $20 billion taxpayer dollars into this P.O.S.
 

k1pp3r

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
277
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Another DoD money pit; they are just trying to save face after sinking $20 billion taxpayer dollars into this P.O.S.

How much in $ and time was put into the Commanche chopper, i can't recall.

Point is 25 years in development and they don't cancel the project, but they canceled a bas ass helicopter.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,801
4,891
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You ever get the feeling that they would be better off taking everything they have learned from this thing and starting over from scratch?

It?s a great idea, but its execution has been a disaster.

Good point, but let's not forget this is a Government contract.
 

Pandaren

Golden Member
Sep 13, 2003
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Originally posted by: k1pp3r
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Another DoD money pit; they are just trying to save face after sinking $20 billion taxpayer dollars into this P.O.S.

How much in $ and time was put into the Commanche chopper, i can't recall.

Point is 25 years in development and they don't cancel the project, but they canceled a bas ass helicopter.

There are good reasons for canceling the Commanche. It may have been a badass helicopter, but its primary function, scouting, is something that UAVs have taken over. UAVs also don't put human pilots at risk.

IMO the jury is still out on the V-22. Some people say it's a disaster, some say it's great... the true test will be combat.
 

slash196

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: k1pp3r
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Another DoD money pit; they are just trying to save face after sinking $20 billion taxpayer dollars into this P.O.S.

How much in $ and time was put into the Commanche chopper, i can't recall.

Point is 25 years in development and they don't cancel the project, but they canceled a bas ass helicopter.

Don't worry, when the time comes to replace the AH-64 we'll have the Comanche's older brother.
 

k1pp3r

Senior member
Aug 30, 2004
277
0
0
Originally posted by: slash196
Originally posted by: k1pp3r
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Another DoD money pit; they are just trying to save face after sinking $20 billion taxpayer dollars into this P.O.S.

How much in $ and time was put into the Commanche chopper, i can't recall.

Point is 25 years in development and they don't cancel the project, but they canceled a bas ass helicopter.

Don't worry, when the time comes to replace the AH-64 we'll have the Comanche's older brother.

I'm sure we will, i was just wondering what the difference in cost and time was between the two.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,081
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The marines a long time ago should of just bought the Blackhawk to replace the old CH-46 in the mid 80's and then continued a slow development and alloweed the technology to mature on the Osprey Concept. They have placed so much money and time in the Osprey concept they cannot allow it to fail even when it still has issues.

Brovane
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You ever get the feeling that they would be better off taking everything they have learned from this thing and starting over from scratch?

It?s a great idea, but its execution has been a disaster.

I'd agree with that idea. While virtually NO design (for aircraft or anything else) works perfectly the first time, at a certain point it's a better idea to just start over than to keep "patching" a shoddy design. The big reason is that, while many things can be changed as lessons are learned in testing, there are certain fundamental decisions that CAN'T be changed after version 1.0.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You ever get the feeling that they would be better off taking everything they have learned from this thing and starting over from scratch?

It?s a great idea, but its execution has been a disaster.

I'd agree with that idea. While virtually NO design (for aircraft or anything else) works perfectly the first time, at a certain point it's a better idea to just start over than to keep "patching" a shoddy design. The big reason is that, while many things can be changed as lessons are learned in testing, there are certain fundamental decisions that CAN'T be changed after version 1.0.

After working in the computer field for 10 years I understand that many weapons systems work miserably or not at all until they get the software right. Therefore I am willing to give new weapons systems enough time to get the code right. However, in this case, it is not the software that is the problem. Its the vulnerability of the physical design of the aircraft. Lack of autorotation ability, the airflow patterns of a tilt rotor and the time of transistion from verticle to horizontal flight. When you add that up, plus the limited amount of lift the aircraft can produce which limits the load and armor protection, you get a design that works ok as a flying truck in a non-combat situation. But this is an assault vehicle that is expected to perform in combat situations. So it is a flawed design and an enormous waste of money.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
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thought it was fly by wire, it shouldn't do maneuvers its not capable of. as for evasive maneuvers, wheres the proof it cannot do what the other helicopters can do?
 

AAman

Golden Member
May 29, 2001
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I wrote a paper on this POC in grad school a few years back on how to save some money by getting rid of it- it wasn't just the flaws, it was the fact that the testers were falsifying the data- even after all the deaths! I couldn't believe it, but they only got a slap on the wrist and got an INCREASE in funding.

Every other day I wish I was a defense contractor ripping off the government, instead of spending the day reading assessments of the wounded. At least I can sleep at night with a clear conscious.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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I worked on the mission computer area of the Osprey in the late 90's.

Boeing would ship over a new drop to meet schedules, knowign that it was flawed. By the time we tested it the following week and reporited problems, they would admit that they knew about the issues.

Some-times the drop would not even boot up.
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
1
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I worked on the mission computer area of the Osprey in the late 90's.

Boeing would ship over a new drop to meet schedules, knowign that it was flawed. By the time we tested it the following week and reporited problems, they would admit that they knew about the issues.

Some-times the drop would not even boot up.


that blows, but mission computers are not flight critical

 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The V-22 is perhaps the most magnificent porkbarrel borne flying turd ever foisted off on the military- a solution looking for a problem, a disaster waiting for a place to happen.

agreed. It should have been killed years ago.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: OS
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I worked on the mission computer area of the Osprey in the late 90's.

Boeing would ship over a new drop to meet schedules, knowing that it was flawed. By the time we tested it the following week and reported problems, they would admit that they knew about the issues.

Some-times the drop would not even boot up.


that blows, but mission computers are not flight critical
The problem is there are attitudes like that that permeate through such projects.
when a project gets behind or in trouble, corners of many types get cut. sooner or later, something will fail because of the habit of cutting corners. Each corner on its own may be OK, but when they accumulate...

I worked on a NASA project (non-shuttle) that the prime was determined to start with testing event though they knew that the S/W was not ready.
I made the offhand remark that such attitudes was what did in the Challenger :(.
the managers response was "We had nothing to do with that".

The implication of such attitudes went right over his head.

 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
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The Osprey has its role but i do not think combat is one of them. it should be used a logistics suttle.