Using open wireless is permission to use...

[homercles337]

I know a lot of people here incorrectly believe that using open wireless networks is stealing. However, the entire notion of leaving a wireless network open means permission to use has been given. My question to the extremists is this, how do you know that an open network should not be used? Suppose you *need* a connect and the only ones available are these: Disney2, Network, Wireless, and JDK. They are all open and have the same connectivity strength. Do you not use any of them? If you do which one?

Locked for a timeout/cooldown.
Off Topic Moderator - FoBoT

*************************************************************

Based on a long history of abusive behavior, homercles337 is indefinitely, perhaps permanently gone. We will discuss this further among mods and make a final decision.

Rio Rebel
Senior Moderator

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Ironically, while on the road to disney world we needed to check the weather. We used an open wireless connection from a nearby business. In and out in 30 seconds. I don't really see anything wrong with it. I leave my connection open for anyone who wants to connect to the internet for a few things. Living out here in the boonies, no one has, but if they want to, I don't really care, I just keep my computers hidden on it.

 

[I4AT]

I'm pretty sure there are laws against it, not because it's a conspiracy among wireless providers, but because it presents a security issue. It's not like there are people actively monitoring 24/7 as if bandwidth leechers are drunken drivers, there are rules in place so when the system gets abused by some ass wardriving he can be held accountable for any attacks he makes from somebody else's network.

 

[ric1287]

i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

 

[frostedflakes]

Morally I don't see any problem with it (as long as you're not doing anything illegal on the connection that could get traced back to the account owner or sucking up all their bandwidth), but good luck arguing something like that in court. If a wireless connection is open, more than likely it's because the owner is too stupid to secure it, not because they are giving you permission to connect.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

 

[spidey07]

It's very simple. Federal law says you cannot access a computer you do not have permission to use.

The very act of associating to an access point (an acceess point is a computer) is connecting without permission. It's already been used to prosecute people.

And before all the flawed analogies flow - just by you associating to an AP you degrade the service of ALL clients on that AP even if you're not actively moving data.

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: homercles337
I know a lot of people here incorrectly believe that using open wireless networks is stealing.

So what if the law backs them up on it? Is it still an "incorrect belief?"

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

 

[imported_Baloo]

It's illegal in some places. Michigan for example. Was a thread here a while back with a link to a story about a man busted for using a coffee shops open wireless. It was open for patrons only, he was not a patron. You are taking a chance any time you access an open network without knowing what rights the owner reserves.

 

[imported_Baloo]

Originally posted by: homercles337
I know a lot of people here incorrectly believe that using open wireless networks is stealing.

I've know a few people who thought this way. Got to remember to make sure doors are locked, lest they think an unlocked door is permission to enter, or the bicycle is locked, lest they think an unlocked bicycle is free to take.

 

[SlitheryDee]

What if my home network is open and I write "only connections by home owner are authorized" on the underside of the router in red sharpie?

 

[I4AT]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

No, there are many businesses and locations that simply can't lock down a network. The hotspots are there for the convenience of their customers, having to hand out WEP keys on a daily basis would defeat the purpose.

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: I4AT

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

No, there are many businesses and locations that simply can't lock down a network. The hotspots are there for the convenience of their customers, having to hand out WEP keys on a daily basis would defeat the purpose.

Hand out cards with a four digit number on them, when a association is made the AP launches a web interface, three incorrect tries and the web interface locks you out.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

I can understand what you and the OP are saying, I've never really thought about it like that before. Sounds like something the courts will have to decide eventually (assuming they haven't already, nobody has used this defense in a WiFi case before?).

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: I4AT

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

No, there are many businesses and locations that simply can't lock down a network. The hotspots are there for the convenience of their customers, having to hand out WEP keys on a daily basis would defeat the purpose.

Hand out cards with a four digit number on them, when a association is made the AP launches a web interface, three incorrect tries and the web interface locks you out.

What happens when some moron forgets to make sure NumLock is on, or is terrible at typing?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

No, it is not. You are connecting to a computer/network you do not have authorization to use. Your computer made the association request, you made the attempt to use a network/computer you don't have permission to use.

This is a federal crime.

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

I can understand what you and the OP are saying, I've never really thought about it like that before. Sounds like something the courts will have to decide eventually (assuming they haven't already, nobody has used this defense in a WiFi case before?).

It doesn't work

It's like finding an unlocked car with the keys in it, and driving it off.

You've stolen it, even though the owner didn't tell you that you couldn't take it, and left it unlocked with the keys in.

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: spidey07
It's very simple. Federal law says you cannot access a computer you do not have permission to use.

The very act of associating to an access point (an acceess point is a computer) is connecting without permission. It's already been used to prosecute people.

And before all the flawed analogies flow - just by you associating to an AP you degrade the service of ALL clients on that AP even if you're not actively moving data.

An open network is giving permission (this has been argued in court too). But of course, you know everything about everything with no evidence right? See the first post in this thread.

How about you answer my question? Your hardline bullshit about connecting to any "open network is illegal" is simply flawed. Horribly so. What do the smart folks at Cisco say about this (and by smart i obviously exclude you).

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

No, it is not. You are connecting to a computer/network you do not have authorization to use. Your computer made the association request, you made the attempt to use a network/computer you don't have permission to use.

This is a federal crime.

Please stick to facts homercles337, lets review the forum guidelines

1) No trolling, flaming or personally attacking members. Deftly attacking ideas and backing up arguments with facts is acceptable and encouraged. Attacking other members personally and purposefully causing trouble with no motive other than to upset the crowd is not allowed.

Off Topic Moderator - FoBoT


Spidey you are so full of shit it astounds me. Really it does. Your red, welfare state hatred for those that support your backwards thinking is truly astounding.

I would like to address this bullshit about usage as theft. How in gods name can you guys compare network usage to stealing a physical device? A car, a bike, possessions are material. Where do you find the illogic to call usage stealing?

 

[cubeless]

it's going to be an 'intent' thing...

if you don't have a reasonable expectation that the network is 'open' on purpose, then you shouldn't access... ergo, a house with an 'open house' sign means that you have a reasonable assumption that you may go in, but just the door being unlocked does not...

 

[dug777]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: ric1287
i thought it was only illegal if you actively break the encryption on the wireless and then use it.

I think the rules in different parts of the country are different, but in most places unauthorized access to a network is illegal; doesn't matter how easy or hard it is to gain access to the network.

If you are able to connect without any kind of security or authentication, isn't that de facto authorization?

No, it is not. You are connecting to a computer/network you do not have authorization to use. Your computer made the association request, you made the attempt to use a network/computer you don't have permission to use.

This is a federal crime.

Spidey you are so full of shit it astounds me. Really it does. Your red, welfare state hatred for those that support your backwards thinking is truly astounding.

I would like to address this bullshit about usage as theft. How in gods name can you guys compare network usage to stealing a physical device? A car, a bike, possessions are material. Where do you find the illogic to call usage stealing?

You're consuming something someone else has paid for, paid for the exclusive use thereof, and they haven't given you any permission to do so.

That's theft, regardless of whether it's bandwidth, or a physical possession like a car.