Use almost any Bluetooth controller with real NES! (Wii/U,PS3/4,etc)

[CZroe]

The SNES version has launched! Ordered ours from Play-Asia again. They're almost certainly the same hardware in a different shell with tweaked FW since the SNES and NES are signal-compatible. I wonder if it's possible to put that FW onto the NES version and adapt with a spliced extension cable set?

 

[Bird222]

Makes me feel bad about giving our extra to a coworker at cost since I'm sure you'd appreciate that more. I wonder what the hold up is.

Don't mean to rub it in, but this also arrived...

What is that?

 

[CZroe]

What is that?

An HDMI mod kit for the authentic Nintendo Entertainment System and not some hackish modern replica or emulation box (NES-001 "original Nintendo," NES-101 "top loader," AV Famicom "Japanese top loader," etc). I've since installed it and it looks AMAZING. There is zero lag introduced by the kit (no frame buffer) and a modern digital TV will have lower latency when it doesn't have to scale the digital native-resolution image.

The first DIY kits went on sale earlier this month at Game-Tech.us and sold out immediately. I barely managed to get one from the first wave. I'd say that the NESRGB Kit has no reason to exist except that the Hi-Def NES doesn't work in the Sharp twinFAMICOM and I really want to mod it too (probably will get an NESRGB for it).

 

[CZroe]

Anyone know where I can get an NES controller skin for a Wii Remote? I really want to put red buttons in a black remote to do this right. I'm kinda surprised that I'm not finding replacement shells/buttons that already look like that.

Really wish I had these... I have been delaying introducing my nephew to the NES because of the cords connected to the controllers (my niece who would be over at the same time would easily trip/pull/etc., the cords just to bother her older brother (she is only 4)).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/272320124322
...coming from China so it may not be any faster than waiting for a restock.

 

[Bird222]

An HDMI mod kit for the authentic Nintendo Entertainment System and not some hackish modern replica or emulation box (NES-001 "original Nintendo," NES-101 "top loader," AV Famicom "Japanese top loader," etc). I've since installed it and it looks AMAZING. There is zero lag introduced by the kit (no frame buffer) and a modern digital TV will have lower latency when it doesn't have to scale the digital native-resolution image.

The first DIY kits went on sale earlier this month at Game-Tech.us and sold out immediately. I barely managed to get one from the first wave. I'd say that the NESRGB Kit has no reason to exist except that the Hi-Def NES doesn't work in the Sharp twinFAMICOM and I really want to mod it too (probably will get an NESRGB for it).

Man I would love to get an original NES again. Mine got stolen looooong ago.

 

[CZroe]

Man I would love to get an original NES again. Mine got stolen looooong ago.

They aren't too expensive but the price has almost doubled in the last few years. Around here they go for $45-$55. On the 17th I missed out on one in excellent condition with two controllers and a Zapper for $35 so the good deals do pop back up from time to time. In that case I forgot to get up in time to get to Goodwill on the day that the price was expected to drop from $70.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Well my adapters finally shipped. That said, I can't track them so no idea when they will show up.

Nice grab on the Hi-Def NES kit. I've been holding out for their final rev before getting my NES-001 modded (I have an AnalogueNT, so really I have had the Hi-Def NES for almost 10-12 months now). I am still amazed every time I play. It really is that much of a game-changer in terms of how good the quality is. Sure you might have to go and tweak a setting or two for each game you play, but man it is worth it. The video and audio quality is just amazing. I love being able to play the Japanese Castlevania 3 and get the full expansion audio.

 

[CZroe]

Well my adapters finally shipped. That said, I can't track them so no idea when they will show up.



Nice grab on the Hi-Def NES kit. I've been holding out for their final rev before getting my NES-001 modded (I have an AnalogueNT, so really I have had the Hi-Def NES for almost 10-12 months now). I am still amazed every time I play. It really is that much of a game-changer in terms of how good the quality is. Sure you might have to go and tweak a setting or two for each game you play, but man it is worth it. The video and audio quality is just amazing. I love being able to play the Japanese Castlevania 3 and get the full expansion audio.

They kept saying that this was the final rev and that the next version only moves the HDMI port for NES-101 toploader, but now they're saying that it might have extra pads for future analog daughterboards. Doesn't bother me much because I'll just move this board to another Nintendo and sell if I need that. I already plan to mod them all.

I'm really hoping for a 5x integer scaling setting. It seems like Kevtris doesn't want to do it.

 

[Fallen Kell]

I'm really hoping for a 5x integer scaling setting. It seems like Kevtris doesn't want to do it.

It isn't that Kevtris doesn't want to do it. It is that it physically does not fit in the memory space he has. He used up all but 2-3 bytes when he made the last menu changes (yes, it was that close and came down to removing a couple comma's/periods to make it fit). He would need something like another 1-2k space which he simply does not have.

 

[Ichinisan]

It isn't that Kevtris doesn't want to do it. It is that it physically does not fit in the memory space he has. He used up all but 2-3 bytes when he made the last menu changes (yes, it was that close and came down to removing a couple comma's/periods to make it fit). He would need something like another 1-2k space which he simply does not have.

He could just get rid of worthless 4.5x and X-ray filter. Seriously.

There really isn't a good excuse. It's more important than any of the modes that are actually included.

 

[Fallen Kell]

I don't remember seeing the X-ray filter in there (will have to look harder). The 4.5x exists to go from the native 240 horizontal scan lines to 1080 (240x4.5=1080) that most modern TV's know how to properly handle. I somewhat understand you wanting a 5x, but that makes it 1200, which isn't something that is a standard resolution on TV's (monitors yes). You either then need to have a video cropping function automatically crop out the 120 lines of extra content to create a 1080 output or rely on the TV somehow properly handling a non-standard HDMI resolution correctly. If cropping, you need to do this fast enough to not add extra delay, but at a minimum, I believe you are adding an additional frame of delay since you need to do a second pass over the video output, and thus need a buffer large enough to keep the 1200 horizontal line image, which probably does not exist on the device as it was intended to upscale to 1080, not 1200...

 

[Ichinisan]

I don't remember seeing the X-ray filter in there (will have to look harder).

It's with the other filters like HQ2X/2XSAI/etc. If it's not there, you probably don't have the latest firmware.

The 4.5x exists to go from the native 240 horizontal scan lines to 1080 (240x4.5=1080) that most modern TV's know how to properly handle.

It's horrible because it's non-integer and ruins scanlines while adding a juddery swimming effect as the screen scrolls with rows that aren't consistently multiplied. You'll see overscan garbage at the top of the screen for lots of games if you don't crop. So you crop the garbage and 4.5x doesn't fill the screen anyway. Worthless!

I somewhat understand you wanting a 5x, but that makes it 1200, which isn't something that is a standard resolution on TV's (monitors yes). You either then need to have a video cropping function automatically crop out the 120 lines of extra content to create a 1080 output or rely on the TV somehow properly handling a non-standard HDMI resolution correctly.

Cropping the 120 lines and keeping a perfect integer scale is exactly what is needed. The TV would see only 1,080 lines. For something that targets 1080p output, this should be the default mode. I'd be happy if it was the ONLY mode. There is no good excuse for its absence.

Heck, it's stupid that it doesn't have a 1920x1200 output mode for DVI considering I have 2 monitors that take 1920x1200 through DVI and HDMI. In addition to that, I also have 2 Hannspree "TVs" with 27.5-inch 16:10 1920x1200 panels. I use them as computer monitors through HDMI at the native resolution. Because the "TVs" force stretch/zoom of 1920x1080, the only way to get 1:1 pixels is to have a 1920x1200 input signal.

If cropping, you need to do this fast enough to not add extra delay, but at a minimum, I believe you are adding an additional frame of delay since you need to do a second pass over the video output, and thus need a buffer large enough to keep the 1200 horizontal line image, which probably does not exist on the device as it was intended to upscale to 1080, not 1200...

It wouldn't need to add any latency to ignore drawing 120 lines and just draw 1,080. Not having an adequate buffer for the 5x scale would be another perplexing oversight considering this should have been the target mode.
6x horizontal and 5x vertical cropped to 1920x1080 is the only way to approximate the correct shape of the pixels (which should be slightly wide) and maximize the use of screen real estate.

Crop a little garbage from the top and bottom and you get to use a 6x horizontal zoom and MUCH more of the screen is actually used for the game at a comfortable size and it doesn't look stretched or squished. So much wasted potential. I'm really holding out hope this will be added with a firmware update. I don't care even a little bit about the pixel filtering stuff.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Well the NES and SNES versions arrived. I will have to try them out still.

 

[CZroe]

Well the NES and SNES versions arrived. I will have to try them out still.

Yep. Post office came by with my three SNES Retro Receiver units yesterday. Haven't opened it yet:

Edit: Darn! This coupon reminds me that I could have saved $5 with the coupon included with my last order of three NES Retro Receivers.

 

[CZroe]

A thing of beauty!

 

[Ichinisan]

I had to install firmware 1.21beta3 to fix the problems with compatibility on the SNES version. Originally, it didn't work with any of the games I tested. Super Mario All Stars + World, The Lion King.

It also fixed the bizarre button mapping defaults on a PS4 controller.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Thanks for the heads up on the firmware. I still have not had a chance to hook mine up and probably won't until the weekend.

 

[CZroe]

Even with the new FW it doesn't like hot-plugging. the system will glitch or freeze when you try it. Having it plugged in actually causes the same problem with standard controllers in other ports!

Interestingly, I can hot-plug the second controller all I want if the SNES isn't using that port. For example, start a 2p game of SMW in Super Mario All*Stars + Super Mario World with only one Retro Receiver plugged in and no other controllers. The software's jack-sensing has disabled the second player controller port and plugging in a controller there will do nothing (you can unplug it too). OTOH, unplugging the Retro Receiver will glitch the graphics or crash the game. Start a 2p game with both already inserted and removing the standard controller will now cause the same issue as removing the Retro Receiver (jack sensing has activated that controller port).

I also lost my save progress in SMB3 on SMA*S + SMW. SMW's save progress was intact. I probably lost the save for everything but SMW but I don't think I had any save progress on the other games to know. Interesting that SMA*S+SMW still does a separate integrity check on the SMA*S save data. It's not like SMW doesn't have modifications: file select is integrated on the SMA*S menu, Luigi's sprite changed, and (IIRC) they will no longer call Luigi "Mario" if you beat it with Luigi.

 

[woozle64]

It's horrible because it's non-integer and ruins scanlines while adding a juddery swimming effect as the screen scrolls with rows that aren't consistently multiplied. You'll see overscan garbage at the top of the screen for lots of games if you don't crop. So you crop the garbage and 4.5x doesn't fill the screen anyway. Worthless!


Cropping the 120 lines and keeping a perfect integer scale is exactly what is needed. The TV would see only 1,080 lines. For something that targets 1080p output, this should be the default mode. I'd be happy if it was the ONLY mode. There is no good excuse for its absence.

Heck, it's stupid that it doesn't have a 1920x1200 output mode for DVI considering I have 2 monitors that take 1920x1200 through DVI and HDMI. In addition to that, I also have 2 Hannspree "TVs" with 27.5-inch 16:10 1920x1200 panels. I use them as computer monitors through HDMI at the native resolution. Because the "TVs" force stretch/zoom of 1920x1080, the only way to get 1:1 pixels is to have a 1920x1200 input signal.

5x width with 4.5x height looks amazing on a 1080p set, I don't see 5x height being worth the extra resources. Do you happen to know which FPGA family and which chip he was using? What do you suggest removing to make room the extra data 5x height would need? I don't think removing 4.5x and xray would free up enough space besides the menu data.

The need for strict integer scaling is blown way out of proportion on forums. Most use an XRGB-mini at 720p on 1080p TV sets, the non-integer scaling still looks razor sharp. NES uses non-square pixels so we're kind of screwed from the start when trying to display on an LCD.

Just wondering, have you ever dabbled in FPGA video processing design?

An HDMI mod kit for the authentic Nintendo Entertainment System and not some hackish modern replica or emulation box (NES-001 "original Nintendo," NES-101 "top loader," AV Famicom "Japanese top loader," etc). I've since installed it and it looks AMAZING. There is zero lag introduced by the kit (no frame buffer) and a modern digital TV will have lower latency when it doesn't have to scale the digital native-resolution image.

The first DIY kits went on sale earlier this month at Game-Tech.us and sold out immediately. I barely managed to get one from the first wave. I'd say that the NESRGB Kit has no reason to exist except that the Hi-Def NES doesn't work in the Sharp twinFAMICOM and I really want to mod it too (probably will get an NESRGB for it).

NESRGB has its place with PVM and component CRT TVs, I still much prefer super mario 3 on the NESRGB. The Hi Def Nes is an alternative but definitely doesn't replace NESRGB. I have both ultraHDMI and an RGB n64 for the same reason, sometimes a CRT is nice.

 

[Ichinisan]

5x width with 4.5x height looks amazing on a 1080p set, I don't see 5x height being worth the extra resources. Do you happen to know which FPGA family and which chip he was using? What do you suggest removing to make room the extra data 5x height would need? I don't think removing 4.5x and xray would free up enough space besides the menu data.

The need for strict integer scaling is blown way out of proportion on forums. Most use an XRGB-mini at 720p on 1080p TV sets, the non-integer scaling still looks razor sharp. NES uses non-square pixels so we're kind of screwed from the start when trying to display on an LCD.

Just wondering, have you ever dabbled in FPGA video processing design?



NESRGB has its place with PVM and component CRT TVs, I still much prefer super mario 3 on the NESRGB. The Hi Def Nes is an alternative but definitely doesn't replace NESRGB. I have both ultraHDMI and an RGB n64 for the same reason, sometimes a CRT is nice.

I'd give up literally every other mode for 5x. The effect from unevenly duplicated lines on patterns looks absolutely awful to me. I don't mind the scrolling shimmer effect as much, but I do notice and it bothers me a little.

1920x1200 would have been great too. I have a 27.5" Hannspree "TV" that stretches all 1080p content vertically just a bit to fill its native 1920x1200 16:10 panel. The 4.5x mode just compounds the problem and it's awful.

 

[woozle64]

I'd give up literally every other mode for 5x. The effect from unevenly duplicated lines on patterns looks absolutely awful to me. I don't mind the scrolling shimmer effect as much, but I do notice and it bothers me a little.

1920x1200 would have been great too. I have a 27.5" Hannspree "TV" that stretches all 1080p content vertically just a bit to fill its native 1920x1200 16:10 panel. The 4.5x mode just compounds the problem and it's awful.

I don't think it's the case where if he removed 4.5x we would suddenly have room for 5x, it seems major features would need to be removed to make 5x work, otherwise he would have included it.

 

[CZroe]

I don't think it's the case where if he removed 4.5x we would suddenly have room for 5x, it seems major features would need to be removed to make 5x work, otherwise he would have included it.

It's not about storage "space" in the FW, it's about memory "space" for the video output being sent to the HDMI port. It's generated faster than the HDMI port can receive it and because there's no frame buffer it has to use a few tricks, almost like a real-time frame assembly buffer:

It's about 25minutes in.

While it is a buffer of sorts, it's not a frame buffer because it's already sending the frame data to the HDMI port before the frame is completely generated, like an Ethernet switch that starts routing the Ethernet frame as soon as it get's the MAC address and before it even finished receiving the frame. The video frames are still coming out in real-time as fast as HDMI allows.

It seems that 4.5x is the limit for this trick. The issue here is that Kevtris thinks people want 5x240p=1200p when they actually want 5x216p=1080p (cropped), so he's not even considering their request. A 1080p 5x mode is perfectly do-able and wouldn't take any more resources than 4x 1080p. The cropped data does not need to be manipulated at all, which frees up the resources required. This would allow for integer scaling with an approximation of the original non-square pixels and the cropped area would not be more than typical overscan that was normal when those games were made.

 

[woozle64]

It's not about storage "space" in the FW, it's about memory "space" for the video output being sent to the HDMI port. It's generated faster than the HDMI port can receive it and because there's no frame buffer it has to use a few tricks, almost like a real-time frame assembly buffer:

It's about 25minutes in.

While it is a buffer of sorts, it's not a frame buffer because it's already sending the frame data to the HDMI port before the frame is completely generated, like an Ethernet switch that starts routing the Ethernet frame as soon as it get's the MAC address and before it even finished receiving the frame. The video frames are still coming out in real-time as fast as HDMI allows.

It seems that 4.5x is the limit for this trick. The issue here is that Kevtris thinks people want 5x240p=1200p when they actually want 5x216p=1080p (cropped), so he's not even considering their request. A 1080p 5x mode is perfectly do-able and wouldn't take any more resources than 4x 1080p. The cropped data does not need to be manipulated at all, which frees up the resources required. This would allow for integer scaling with an approximation of the original non-square pixels and the cropped area would not be more than typical overscan that was normal when those games were made.

By memory do you mean it's a capacity issue or the issue is timing between the buffer's read and write clock?

I don't think 5x216p would work either if 4.5 is the limit for his trick. He still has to the same operations as 5x240p except at the edges of the screen where he probably uses a conditional statement to blanks out cropped portions of the image, for example

if(picture_line < 3)
begin
blank video output
end

would crop the first 3-4 rows of pixels. So the data situation for the buffers hasn't really changed, the way it's read at the edges is just modified.

Either way, interesting stuff.

 

[CZroe]

By memory do you mean it's a capacity issue or the issue is timing between the buffer's read and write clock?

I don't think 5x216p would work either if 4.5 is the limit for his trick. He still has to the same operations as 5x240p except at the edges of the screen where he probably uses a conditional statement to blanks out cropped portions of the image, for example

if(picture_line < 3)
begin
blank video output
end

would crop the first 3-4 rows of pixels. So the data situation for the buffers hasn't really changed, the way it's read at the edges is just modified.

Either way, interesting stuff.

He's talking about setting up a buffer for real-time generated pixels, so it's definitely workspace memory capacity and not a FW storage capacity limitation.

Basically, it's a pixel or line buffer instead of a frame buffer. The NES and the HDMI port still output the same FPS but the NES finishes drawing each frame faster (less lines to draw and spends the rest of the time in Vblank for an analog TV to return the electron beam to the start). The NES and the HDMI output actually start out drawing the frames in sync but the NES finishes drawing the frame before the HDMI port does and then moves into the Vblank interval during which time the HDMI frame finishes assembling/transmitting. They start the next frame synced again, so the NES never gets a single frame ahead or anything. This means that during a particular frame any portion of the image that hasn't been sent out the HDMI port yet has to be momentarily stored until the HDMI controller catches up.

Now, at 5x there is no reason to include the 60 lines that will be cropped out of the top so the output of the NES and HDMI port should start out synced at line 61. From there the NES will generate the frame faster than the HDMI controller and pixels will begin to fill the pixel buffer. The last line the Hi-Def NES needs to load in the pixel buffer is line 1,140 because it only needs to create 1,080 lines (1,140-60=1,080). This means that the memory requirement is identical to 4.5x240p=1080p. It could already handle full horizontal resolution at 4.5x vertical scaling, so it doesn't even matter what setting you use there, though 6x is ideal for a non-square integer scale that's close to original.

It's clear the Kevin Horton/Kevtris thinks people want 5x for 1200p. Purists will tell you that they can live with 5x cropped to 1080p since some overscan is normal and integer scaling with non-square pixels close to the original aspect is the goal.