USB 1.1 vs USB 2.0

[112]

Whats the difference between USB 1.1 and 2.0? Also, with the cases that come with front side USB, are those 1.1 or 2.0? Is that determined by the mobo or the case? Thanks.

 

[bozo1]

Whats the difference between USB 1.1 and 2.0?

Basically, speed. 480Mbps vs. 12Mbps.
The front case USB connectors can be either, all depends on what you connect them to - a USB 1.1 controller or a 2.0 controller. (motherboard based or add-in card)

 

[112]

Is there a big difference? I know that sounds like a stupid question, and based on the numbers obviously it seems like there is, but in using say a digital cam, printer, scanner, would u see a big difference?

 

[EKAtBzboyz]

it would probably be quite a bit faster

but for digicams it wouldnt really matter since its not like the pictures are 10-20mb big
but for dv cams it probably would

for digicam/printer/scanner i dont see much of a difference


mainly its for hds and cdrw drives which were limited by usb 1.1 bandwidth

 

[Mday]

Originally posted by: 112
Is there a big difference? I know that sounds like a stupid question, and based on the numbers obviously it seems like there is, but in using say a digital cam, printer, scanner, would u see a big difference?

you wont see a difference if you use them one at a time.

you will notice a difference if you use all of them at the same time. this is due to the extra bandwidth, as well as a more functional chip package. most cards use NEC's chip which has 2 1.1 controllers and 1 2.0 controller (3 controllers on 1 chip). it auto negotiates between devices, so you get optimal bandwidth.

you will also notice a big difference if you decide to use an external HDD or CD burner.

i would highly recommend winxp for those who want to go usb2.0 since MS stripped support from older operating systems other than xp and w2k. and MS half-assed support on w2k. of course other manufacturers have support for it for win98se and up.

if looking for usb2.0 devices, look for the red\white\blue "hi speed" label which means it can actually go to speeds beyond 12Mbps of 1.1

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Mday

Originally posted by: 112
Is there a big difference? I know that sounds like a stupid question, and based on the numbers obviously it seems like there is, but in using say a digital cam, printer, scanner, would u see a big difference?

you wont see a difference if you use them one at a time.

Not true.

I have a USB 2.0 scanner sitting on my desk that is capable of outputting data at speeds far surpassing USB 1.1. High res scans are incredibly fast, but transferring the same amount of data over USB 1.1 would take far longer.

Viper GTS

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: bozo1

The front case USB connectors can be either, all depends on what you connect them to - a USB 1.1 controller or a 2.0 controller. (motherboard based or add-in card)

I'm not sure this is entirely correct. From my understanding the cabling and connectors have to be rated for 480Mb to be able to handle that speed. Even if one connects the front USB connectors to a USB 2.0 controller, they may not operate at the full USB 2.0 speed unless they are rated to do so. Well just because they aren't rated doesn't mean they won't, but I think you get the idea. However, I wouldn't count on most USB 1.1 cables being able to handle 480Mb with out errors -- there is a big difference in what is required out of a 12Mb cable and a 480Mb cable.

 

[Operandi]

I'm not sure this is entirely correct. From my understanding the cabling and connectors have to be rated for 480Mb to be able to handle that speed. Even if one connects the front USB connectors to a USB 2.0 controller, they may not operate at the full USB 2.0 speed unless they are rated to do so. Well just because they aren't rated doesn't mean they won't, but I think you get the idea. However, I wouldn't count on most USB 1.1 cables being able to handle 480Mb with out errors -- there is a big difference in what is required out of a 12Mb cable and a 480Mb cable.

The cables are just that cables, wire with some plastic around it with minimal if any shielding.

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: Operandi
The cables are just that cables, wire with some plastic around it with minimal if any shielding.

O.K., go ahead and use the cheapest USB 1.0 cables on your next USB 2.0 system with USB 2.0 devices. Just don't complain to me when its slow or doesn't work. If they are just wire with some plastic around them, it won't matter. For that matter your CPU is just some silicon in a ceramic packaging with some metal pins, why don't you take the slowest one you can find and put that in?

Even the USB 1.1 specification defines both a "low-speed cable" and a "full-speed cable", where the low speed cable does not have to be twisted-pair. However, the specification states that any detachable cable must be full-speed (Thus only those manufacturers that have a built-in cable for their device can use low-speed cables). See Chapter 6 in the USB 1.1 specification for more information about that. Section 6.4.1 lists 8 requirements for cables, such as "The cable impedance must match the impedance of the Full-speed drivers. The drivers are characterized to drive specific cable impedance. Refer to Section 7.1.1 for details." Section 6.5 specifies what materials may be used for the connector.

Low speed is 187,500 data bytes/second (which they call 1.5Mb/s) and high speed is 1,500,000 data bytes/second (which they call 12Mb/s). They apparently have adopted the hard drive industries decimal Mega. If I had my say I would call them 183KB/s and 1.4MB/s.

For USB 1.1 Section 6.6.1, "Full-speed cable consists of one 28 to 20 AWG non-twisted power pair and one 28 AWG twisted data pair with an aluminum metallized plyester inner shield, 28AWG stranded tinned copper drawin wire. > 65% tinned copper wire interwoved (braided) out shield and PVC outer jacket."
Section 6.6.3 defines the required resistances with a 5% tolerance for the difference gauges.

7.1.1.1 Full-speed (12MB/s Driver Characteristics
A full-speed USB connection is made through a shielded, twisted pair cable with a characteristic impedance (Zo) of 90Ohms+-15% and a maximum one-way delay of 26ns. The impedance of each of the drivers (Zdrv) must be between 28Ohms and 44Ohms.

Allowable Cable Attenuation for USB 1.1 at different frequencies is defined in Section 7.1.17.

The USB 2.0 specification is almost twice the size of the USB 1.1 specification (I am just skimming both of them).

USB 2.0 defines a new category called "high-speed cable", so USB 2.0 now has "low-speed cable", "full-speed cable", and "high-speed cable." In general they refer to high-/full-speed cable to refer to a cable that can operate in both modes.

USB 2.0, Section 6.4.2 defines 7 requirements for USB 2.0 cables and redefines that all detachable cables must now be high-/full-speed. Thus any USB 2.0 detachable cable should work at either speed. Section 6.5 defines what materials are acceptable for USB 2.0.

USB 2.0, Section 6.6.1 has the same requirement as the same section of the USB 1.1 specification.

I can't find any noticeable mechanical changes for a high-speed cable. The required propagation delay is the same (26ns). The main change I found is that they added requirements for higher frequencies to the cable attenuation table (USB 2.0 Section 7.1.17). So basically the only major change is that they require the high-speed cables to handle higher frequencies. Makes sense.

I hope though that I have shown that it just isn't some wire with some plastic around it.

 

[Bovinicus]

I am willing to bet money that the USB2 cables must be of much higher quality than USB1 cables. Don't listen to the guy who said cables don't matter, that is simply not true. If that were true, then why are audiophiles willing to spend $1000 on high quality cables?

To answer the original question, you won't notice a difference if you are just using low bandwidth devices like USB keyboards, mice, or printers. Digital cameras and scanners may benefit, but not so much so that it would justify spending money on a USB2 controller. However, DV cameras are an excellent use for USB2. As well, MP3 storage devices like the Nomad Jukebox would benefit greatly. Transferring of information will go approximately 40x faster with USB2.

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: Bovinicus
I am willing to bet money that the USB2 cables must be of much higher quality than USB1 cables. Don't listen to the guy who said cables don't matter, that is simply not true. If that were true, then why are audiophiles willing to spend $1000 on high quality cables?

Not a very good example, unfortunately. While there is definitely a difference in quality between different cables. There are no cables that justify that kind of expense (as far as home audio goes, I'm not talking transatlantic fiber here). I have seen sites that hook up those cables to oscilloscopes and vector network analyzers (very expensive piece of equipment used to transmit a wave across a cable and measure the magnitude and phase at the other end) and they can't tell any difference. If a VNA can't tell the difference, there is no way a human can.

I can see spending that much on a lot of things as far as audio equipment goes (and I have spent a lot more than that), but I want to see some VNA output from a good review site that shows me the difference before I believe that past a certain point it makes any difference.

For anyone curious about VNA's, the Agilent 35670A Dynamic Signal Analyzer ($18,300 list) would be an example of one that would work for measuring audio cables, but isn't exactly on the high end as far as VNAs go. I really wish this stuff was cheaper so us geeks could measure the cables ourselves and not listen to hype. The only VNA I can get access to only goes down to 300kHz (which is fine for high-speed electronics), but of no use for audio.

 

[Pauli]

Yeah, dszd0g, if someone can tell the difference between good quality audio cables and "$1000" cables, I feel very sorry for them. They would have to live life with hyper-hearing that could hear a pin drop at a mile and a half.

 

[kgraeme]

Originally posted by: Bovinicus
If that were true, then why are audiophiles willing to spend $1000 on high quality cables?

Whoa! Please, please don't even go there. This thread will devolve into something nasty.

 

[boyRacer]

I transferred 2GB+ over USB 1.1... took more than 30-40 minutes...

I transferred the same exact data over USB 2.0... took more or less around 2 minutes...

 

[draggoon01]

Originally posted by: BoYRaCeR
I transferred 2GB+ over USB 1.1... took more than 30-40 minutes...

I transferred the same exact data over USB 2.0... took more or less around 2 minutes...

you transferred at rate of ~1gig/1min? what hard drive did that?

 

[DaFinn]

you transferred at rate of ~1gig/1min? what hard drive did that?

Ummm, correct me if I am wrong but is that not roughly 16.7 Mb/s... ANY current HDD would do that!



-DaFinn

 

[dszd0g]

DaFinn, closer to 17MB/s but still quite doable by good current hard drives. A WD 2000BB ranges from about 30-55MB/s (end->beginning of drive). A Maxtor DiamondMax D740X gets around 25-40MB/s. Even the older IBM 60GXP does 21-39MB/s.

high-speed USB 2.0 is theoretically about 40 times faster than fast-speed USB 1.1, but in practice it currently is less than that. The rought numbers given look about right.

1GB/min * (1024MB/1GB) * (1min/60s) = 17.07MB/s

 

[DaFinn]

DaFinn, closer to 17MB/s

Umm, yeah... just counted in me head considering 1Gig=1000Mb and so on... (but lets not start another 1000 vs 1024 thread)

 

[Dufusyte]

fwiw, Lian-Li cases have some front USB connectors specified as USB 1, and other front USB connectors labeled as USB 2. They even have a case where one front connector is labeled USB1, and another one beside it is labeled USB 2.

Image of USB 1 and USB 2 front connectors

So I think there is some difference in the wiring. The USB 1 connector will probably work decently if it is connected to a USB 2 controller, but you might not get the full speed, or there may be more of a possibility of errors in data transfer.

 

[gunrunnerjohn]

USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 should be backward and forward compatible, at least to the extent possible allowing for the speed differences. I have a multitude of USB 1.1 devices, and a couple of USB 2.0 disks. All of the USB devices work seamlessly on either a USB 1.1 connection or a USB 2.0 connection. I'm using Windows 2000 and W98 and both exhibit the same compatibility.

I forgot to add, there is no difference in the wiring, the connectors and the plugs are identical. The cables are higher quality, and frequently USB 2.0 cables are shielded, but I've used USB 1.1 cables on my disks without difficulty.

 

[Superman9534]

uhh thats now what it means on that case. USB1 means its the first set of connectors, not thats its specification 1.0, same w/ USB2, that means its the seconds set of connectors on the case. Notice next to it, there are firewire ports, it says 1394A and 1394B....1394B isn't out yet so that is oviously not what it means.

 

[Operandi]

dszd0g: I guess my statement was pretty generic... I was aware of USB 2.0 and high speed cables...

I was referring to the cables that connect the USB bracket/bezel of case to the motherboard/USB card. From my experience there doesn?t really seem to be any difference between USB 2.0 connecters/cables and 1.1 connecter?s cables, prolly due the short distance they have to cover?

 

[Passions]

Get Monster USB 2.0 cables, without you will have noise and attenuation of signal. Why spend $2,000 on a system and skimp on the cables? Monster USB 2.0 cables, the only choice.

 

[Dufusyte]

Originally posted by: Superman9534 uhh thats now what it means on that case. USB1 means its the first set of connectors, not thats its specification 1.0, same w/ USB2, that means its the seconds set of connectors on the case. Notice next to it, there are firewire ports, it says 1394A and 1394B....1394B isn't out yet so that is oviously not what it means.

Well, the specs for this case on newegg.com state:

Lian-Li PC-601B USB2, 11-Bay, Aluminum Cases. Color: Black, Model: PC-601B USB2. 2 x IEEE1394, 4 USB(2 X 2.0 & 2 X 1.01) ports, 1 x MIC, 1 x speaker, 1 x H/phone, 2 x PS2 ports at the front. MID ATX Tower with 4 80mm fans. Size: 490(L)x210(W)x450(H)mm Total 11 device bays: four 5.25, two 3.5 External and FIVE hidden. Pentium 4 compatible. Power Supply Sold Separately Model#: PC-601B USB2

and the review at Explosive Labs mentions the wiring is different on the two sets of usb connectors on this case:

The fact that Lian Li chose a the nine pin installation for 2 of the USB 2.0 ports on the PC-601 is a wise choice.

 

[Curley]

EKAtBzboyz, dude your posts are very accurate and precise, you must be in the business.

Anyway, I didn't know the difference until I tried it myself through experience. I noticed a huge speed increase when transferring music with my USB 2.0 buslink. There was so much of a difference, that if I have to put some music on a box without 2.0, I will first install a 2.0 hub just to get the speed. I'm talking minutes vs hours. The same is true with my 2.0 backpack cd writer.

I haven't noticed a difference with my Logitech Web Cam Pro 4000, but I assume the camera must be 2.0 ready to take advantage of the speed.

So, due to my experience and not my knowledge, you notice the speed on cd-writers and hard drives.