USANext Stages Swiftboat-Style Attack Ad Against AARP

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SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Using Pets.com to show the stock market is a ponzi scheme is like using a specific con artist to show that the dollar is ponzi scheme.

Just because you can use the medium for a scam, doesn't make the medium itself a scam.

And what's to stop our future retirees being used for a scam?
 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Ok, now how is SS a ponzi scheme?

Pon·zi scheme Audio pronunciation of "ponzi scheme" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pnz)
n.

An investment swindle in which high profits are promised from fictitious sources and early investors are paid off with funds raised from later ones.

This exactly describes the current pay as you go SS method. IT would be illegal if the goverment was not runnding.

1)SS doesn't promise high profits.
2)Insurance companies run in this manner. Would you call insurance a ponzi scheme?
(also did you see my earlier post showing how SS does, in fact, have a disability insurance component?)

 

MonkeyK

Golden Member
May 27, 2001
1,396
8
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Using Pets.com to show the stock market is a ponzi scheme is like using a specific con artist to show that the dollar is ponzi scheme.

Just because you can use the medium for a scam, doesn't make the medium itself a scam.

And what's to stop our future retirees being used for a scam?

Just our common sense. It's really the best protection we have.

And I say that even though I don't agree with SS privatization. I just think there is no point being irrational about the whole thing.

 

berserker

Member
Feb 1, 2000
124
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool

Stock market is also a Ponzi scheme. And yes, Americans cannot make their own investment decisions. As evidenced by the doc com bubble. I really don't think people who valued companies with huge losses and tiny revenues at many billions of dollars can be trusted to save for their retirement, because they will only end up on government welfare when their investments don't pan out.

I have always thought that this type of thinking was an urban legend. I once saw this view espoused (tongue in cheekly) on the West Wing (which is my favorite show) and marveled that anyone could possibly think that.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: berserker
Originally posted by: SuperTool

Stock market is also a Ponzi scheme. And yes, Americans cannot make their own investment decisions. As evidenced by the doc com bubble. I really don't think people who valued companies with huge losses and tiny revenues at many billions of dollars can be trusted to save for their retirement, because they will only end up on government welfare when their investments don't pan out.

I have always thought that this type of thinking was an urban legend. I once saw this view espoused (tongue in cheekly) on the West Wing (which is my favorite show) and marveled that anyone could possibly think that.

Regardless if anyone likes the stocket market or not, Bush's plan does NOT give you the chance to choose ANY form of investment other than the ones THEY want you to invest in. That just screams, "DEFRAUD ME!"
 

berserker

Member
Feb 1, 2000
124
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: berserker
Originally posted by: SuperTool

Stock market is also a Ponzi scheme. And yes, Americans cannot make their own investment decisions. As evidenced by the doc com bubble. I really don't think people who valued companies with huge losses and tiny revenues at many billions of dollars can be trusted to save for their retirement, because they will only end up on government welfare when their investments don't pan out.

I have always thought that this type of thinking was an urban legend. I once saw this view espoused (tongue in cheekly) on the West Wing (which is my favorite show) and marveled that anyone could possibly think that.

Regardless if anyone likes the stocket market or not, Bush's plan does NOT give you the chance to choose ANY form of investment other than the ones THEY want you to invest in. That just screams, "DEFRAUD ME!"

I don't understand how it says that. From what I gather, they would give me a choice of like 5 funds to invest in. Where is the fraud in that?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I thought that our blue/red charts showed us that it was the other way around.

You are telling us the greedy wealthy in this nation are democrat?

Interesting....

At least we know who to blame now for corporate Americas evilness.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Regardless if anyone likes the stocket market or not, Bush's plan does NOT give you the chance to choose ANY form of investment other than the ones THEY want you to invest in. That just screams, "DEFRAUD ME!"

How many have been defrauded by the Thrift program?
Funny you mention your fear of fraud when mentioning an alternative to the current SS system.

Nothing but a fraud there.

 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
A little bit more in-depth info-

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/21/polit...a371bb47479ad&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Y'all ready for another swiftliars style tsunami of slime?

With Kerry, they could attack the messenger, with the AARP, it probably won't be that easy.




As long as the AARP continues to sell mutual funds to its members and take fraudulent polls, they will an easy target.

Yet you have no problem with the government getting into the business of pushing stocks and bonds in retirement accounts :roll:


I have no problem with the goverment giving more options to citizens that are forced into a goverment retirement plan. However the real point is the AARP is being hypocritical when it comes to market investments. Market investments are either safe orthey are not and AARP is taking both positions.

Your not understand AARP position they say Market Investments are not safe becuase they might not get to get their greedy old hands on the money. The only safe dollar is one spent by them.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Regardless if anyone likes the stocket market or not, Bush's plan does NOT give you the chance to choose ANY form of investment other than the ones THEY want you to invest in. That just screams, "DEFRAUD ME!"

How many have been defrauded by the Thrift program?
Funny you mention your fear of fraud when mentioning an alternative to the current SS system.

Nothing but a fraud there.

I'd REALLY like for you to explain to me HOW Social Security is a fraud.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I'd REALLY like for you to explain to me HOW Social Security is a fraud.

Because it is a tax guised as a social program.
If they intended it to be used as a security blanket in the 1930s they would have

A. Stuck the tax in a seperate fund that is not touchable by congress
B. Provided an individual account for each person. When they retire, their account would have the entire savings in it from the SS tax they paid through their life. Instead it is put in a general fund to be raided.
C. Put retirement age at 50 so people would actually have the ability to recieve benefit checks.

They called it SS and never expected more than half the people to collect. Retirement age was set at, what, 60 years? the avg lifespan of a person was 61 back then. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see this program for what it is.

Unsurprising when people live on avg to 79 years of age it cant fund itself and will collapse and bring the entire economy with it.

If they were smart and just wanted to get out from underneath this ponzi scheme while still raping the American tax payer and business. They would erase the SS tax and just add it onto your income taxes. Then raise the minimum age for collection to 79 years.

It would be just like the 1930s and in 80 years when this fails again they can redo it. Eventually we wont keep on living and they will get what they want out of the deal.

A 12.6% tax on income for each person.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Genx87
Regardless if anyone likes the stocket market or not, Bush's plan does NOT give you the chance to choose ANY form of investment other than the ones THEY want you to invest in. That just screams, "DEFRAUD ME!"

How many have been defrauded by the Thrift program?
Funny you mention your fear of fraud when mentioning an alternative to the current SS system.

Nothing but a fraud there.

I'd REALLY like for you to explain to me HOW Social Security is a fraud.

Well other then the fact that anyone under 50 is going to get screwed paying back the "trust fund" in addition to pay into SS to not see a damn dime.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Genx87
Regardless if anyone likes the stocket market or not, Bush's plan does NOT give you the chance to choose ANY form of investment other than the ones THEY want you to invest in. That just screams, "DEFRAUD ME!"

How many have been defrauded by the Thrift program?
Funny you mention your fear of fraud when mentioning an alternative to the current SS system.

Nothing but a fraud there.

I'd REALLY like for you to explain to me HOW Social Security is a fraud.

Well other then the fact that anyone under 50 is going to get screwed paying back the "trust fund" in addition to pay into SS to not see a damn dime.

To you and Genx, there is no proof of any such thing happening. NONE. According to the CBO (mainly Republicans mind you), SS will give full benefits until 2042 and 75% benefits until past 2100. Are you saying that you know better than the CBO and the Social Security trustees?

What is in the trust fund right now? T-Bills! Has this President made them worthless or something?

Does Social Security need to be tweaked? Sure it does, but small, subtle tweaks, not a raping like Bush's plan would be, which would certainly cut benefits SIGNIFICANTLY. Young people would get the worst % hit in benefits once they retired.

Social Security is something people EARN, it's not a handout. It's an INSURANCE plan, not a retirement plan per se.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
To you and Genx, there is no proof of any such thing happening. NONE. According to the CBO (mainly Republicans mind you), SS will give full benefits until 2042 and 75% benefits until past 2100. Are you saying that you know better than the CBO and the Social Security trustees?

I read the Trustee report and it only goes out to 2080 which at that point I assume they are assuming the govt collapses. At 20 trillion a year deficit to fund between SS and medicare, that is a good assumption.


Does Social Security need to be tweaked? Sure it does, but small, subtle tweaks, not a raping like Bush's plan would be, which would certainly cut benefits SIGNIFICANTLY. Young people would get the worst % hit in benefits once they retired.

Benefits already have to be cut in 2042, there is little getting around that.

Social Security is something people EARN, it's not a handout. It's an INSURANCE plan, not a retirement plan per se.

it is still a fraud either way. Putting money into the system and will only recieve 80% of benefits.

Wish I could sell you my SS plan. Give me 12.6% of your earnings and when you retire Ill keep 20% of the payout while making your neighbor pay the rest.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: berserker
Originally posted by: SuperTool

Stock market is also a Ponzi scheme. And yes, Americans cannot make their own investment decisions. As evidenced by the doc com bubble. I really don't think people who valued companies with huge losses and tiny revenues at many billions of dollars can be trusted to save for their retirement, because they will only end up on government welfare when their investments don't pan out.

I have always thought that this type of thinking was an urban legend. I once saw this view espoused (tongue in cheekly) on the West Wing (which is my favorite show) and marveled that anyone could possibly think that.

It's common sense. Why is it so marvelous to you?
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I'd REALLY like for you to explain to me HOW Social Security is a fraud.

Because it is a tax guised as a social program.
what a hell are you talking about? The tax is not guised as anything other than what it is? It says on it SS tax. That tax is for SS. How is that a fraud?
If they intended it to be used as a security blanket in the 1930s they would have

A. Stuck the tax in a seperate fund that is not touchable by congress
B. Provided an individual account for each person. When they retire, their account would have the entire savings in it from the SS tax they paid through their life. Instead it is put in a general fund to be raided.
C. Put retirement age at 50 so people would actually have the ability to recieve benefit checks.

They called it SS and never expected more than half the people to collect. Retirement age was set at, what, 60 years? the avg lifespan of a person was 61 back then. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see this program for what it is.
How is that different from insurance? We all pay into it, and not everyone collects money from it. It's a Social Security program for old people. Obviously if you killed by a car when you are 40, you won't be collecting SS>
Unsurprising when people live on avg to 79 years of age it cant fund itself and will collapse and bring the entire economy with it.
first you are whining people aren't living long enough, now you are whining that they live too long. Are you in full control of your faculties?
If they were smart and just wanted to get out from underneath this
NOT
ponzi scheme while still raping the American tax payer and business. They would erase the SS tax and just add it onto your income taxes. Then raise the minimum age for collection to 79 years.
I am all for erasing SS tax and adding it to Income taxes. No more caps :) That will make the rich pay for all of our social security needs :D Doubt rightwingers would support it. [/quote]

It would be just like the 1930s and in 80 years when this fails again they can redo it. Eventually we wont keep on living and they will get what they want out of the deal.
A 12.6% tax on income for each person.[/quote]

And who wants to keep a 79 year old employee and pay his medical insurance bills? Not very many companies, unless you have very rare skills. Again I support 100% funding SS out of progressive income taxes rather than regressive SS taxes. :)
 

berserker

Member
Feb 1, 2000
124
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: berserker
Originally posted by: SuperTool

Stock market is also a Ponzi scheme. And yes, Americans cannot make their own investment decisions. As evidenced by the doc com bubble. I really don't think people who valued companies with huge losses and tiny revenues at many billions of dollars can be trusted to save for their retirement, because they will only end up on government welfare when their investments don't pan out.

I have always thought that this type of thinking was an urban legend. I once saw this view espoused (tongue in cheekly) on the West Wing (which is my favorite show) and marveled that anyone could possibly think that.

It's common sense. Why is it so marvelous to you?

It's your common sense to tell me that I don't wtf I am doing with my money and that the government knows better than me how to invest it? Who are you to tell me that? You don't even know me!
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: berserker
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: berserker
Originally posted by: SuperTool

Stock market is also a Ponzi scheme. And yes, Americans cannot make their own investment decisions. As evidenced by the doc com bubble. I really don't think people who valued companies with huge losses and tiny revenues at many billions of dollars can be trusted to save for their retirement, because they will only end up on government welfare when their investments don't pan out.

I have always thought that this type of thinking was an urban legend. I once saw this view espoused (tongue in cheekly) on the West Wing (which is my favorite show) and marveled that anyone could possibly think that.

It's common sense. Why is it so marvelous to you?

It's your common sense to tell me that I don't wtf I am doing with my money and that the government knows better than me how to invest it? Who are you to tell me that? You don't even know me!

Well, then states shouldn't require drivers to buy car insurance too? How dare they tell them where to put their money :roll:
Who am I, I am US taxpayer, and I don't want to be bailing out so called "investors" who lose their money in the market and haven't paid into SS. And don't tell me they won't come asking for a handout if that happens.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Considering the largest tax increases came under Reagan and Bush, I don't know how you make that claim. Yes I do, but that's a whole seperate thread altogether. If you don't like doing the right thing and helping people with a hand-UP, then you need to follow your little "colleagues" advice and get the f*ck out of this country if you don't like it. Then you'll REALLY find out how LITTLE you're taxed in this country.

You're the typical neoconservative blowhard... "Wah wah wah, it's my money, it's my money." Pout, pout, pout. Tough, we all have to pay taxes. It's called being part of a SOCIETY.

Tell you what, take all your neoconservative buddies, find an island (a nice one even) and move there. Take all your money, belongings, whatever and rot there. No one will EVVVER take your money again. Sound like a plan? Good. Buh-bye.

Oh boo hoo hoo cry me a river. What, I'm supposed to work my ass off to support some, well, i aint gonna SAY it, but you know damned well what I would say. If i wanted to support the waste and trash of this country, maybe I would DONATE my money to a cause. But, seeing as personally I think they need to just up and die and quit being a drag on the system, I really have no desire to help them.
But, our great Democratic leaders want to turn this country into a fantastic socialist camp so I really dont have a choice but to support the waste and trash of this country, because I'm FORCED to through taxes which are subsequently distributed to the social(ist) programs.

So, to answer your "biggest tax hikes" point, if we didnt HAVE social(ist) programs which were pushed by Communist traitors then we wouldnt need tax increases would we?
So, keep on hanging that red flag with a hammer and sickle on your doorstep my friend, your not the only communist sell out in this country.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: Genx87
[q[]Tell you what, take all your neoconservative buddies, find an island (a nice one even) and move there. Take all your money, belongings, whatever and rot there. No one will EVVVER take your money again. Sound like a plan? Good. Buh-bye.

It would be funny to see all the wealthy repbulicans leave. Where you make up the 70% of the taxes they pay?

I thought that our blue/red charts showed us that it was the other way around.
[/quote]

Thats ironic, then why is it most Democrats support social programs that redistribute wealth fro the haves to the have nots?
Because the Demcorats are broke ass gimme-my-handout deadbeats. (A large portion anyways)
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: Genx87
[q[]Tell you what, take all your neoconservative buddies, find an island (a nice one even) and move there. Take all your money, belongings, whatever and rot there. No one will EVVVER take your money again. Sound like a plan? Good. Buh-bye.

It would be funny to see all the wealthy repbulicans leave. Where you make up the 70% of the taxes they pay?

I thought that our blue/red charts showed us that it was the other way around.

Thats ironic, then why is it most Democrats support social programs that redistribute wealth fro the haves to the have nots?
Because the Demcorats are broke ass gimme-my-handout deadbeats. (A large portion anyways)[/quote]

And Republicans are war-mongering murderers hellbent on the destruction of the Constitution. Well, I'll say that as long as we're throwing around stupid generalizations like that.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Considering the largest tax increases came under Reagan and Bush, I don't know how you make that claim. Yes I do, but that's a whole seperate thread altogether. If you don't like doing the right thing and helping people with a hand-UP, then you need to follow your little "colleagues" advice and get the f*ck out of this country if you don't like it. Then you'll REALLY find out how LITTLE you're taxed in this country.

You're the typical neoconservative blowhard... "Wah wah wah, it's my money, it's my money." Pout, pout, pout. Tough, we all have to pay taxes. It's called being part of a SOCIETY.

Tell you what, take all your neoconservative buddies, find an island (a nice one even) and move there. Take all your money, belongings, whatever and rot there. No one will EVVVER take your money again. Sound like a plan? Good. Buh-bye.

Oh boo hoo hoo cry me a river. What, I'm supposed to work my ass off to support some, well, i aint gonna SAY it, but you know damned well what I would say. If i wanted to support the waste and trash of this country, maybe I would DONATE my money to a cause. But, seeing as personally I think they need to just up and die and quit being a drag on the system, I really have no desire to help them.
But, our great Democratic leaders want to turn this country into a fantastic socialist camp so I really dont have a choice but to support the waste and trash of this country, because I'm FORCED to through taxes which are subsequently distributed to the social(ist) programs.

So, to answer your "biggest tax hikes" point, if we didnt HAVE social(ist) programs which were pushed by Communist traitors then we wouldnt need tax increases would we?
So, keep on hanging that red flag with a hammer and sickle on your doorstep my friend, your not the only communist sell out in this country.

Big tax increases for big military... sorry Goebbals.

Poor people should up and die eh? Don't like it.... LEAVE.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Originally posted by: Genx87
[q[]Tell you what, take all your neoconservative buddies, find an island (a nice one even) and move there. Take all your money, belongings, whatever and rot there. No one will EVVVER take your money again. Sound like a plan? Good. Buh-bye.

It would be funny to see all the wealthy repbulicans leave. Where you make up the 70% of the taxes they pay?

I thought that our blue/red charts showed us that it was the other way around.

Thats ironic, then why is it most Democrats support social programs that redistribute wealth fro the haves to the have nots?
Because the Demcorats are broke ass gimme-my-handout deadbeats. (A large portion anyways)

And Republicans are war-mongering murderers hellbent on the destruction of the Constitution. Well, I'll say that as long as we're throwing around stupid generalizations like that.[/quote]

Ok, then you tell me why the Democratic voters are by and large the pooror segment of America? You tell me why Democrats by and large support social programs?
You can SAY its a generalized statement, but its not, thats what is so sad. Democrats as a group ARE the poorer of our society, why do you think Democrats always try to portray themselves as "For the "working" man", and for the "have nots" in this country?
Gee, you do the math, but its pretty obvious.......
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Big tax increases for big military... sorry Goebbals.

Poor people should up and die eh? Don't like it.... LEAVE.

Ok, fine, lets go down this road.

Tell me why is it my responsibility to support the lesser in this country? Why do I have NO CHOICE in supporting the broke ass deadbeats in this country?
Why do I have to do that?