US Using Its Youth as a Credit Card? (Another Student Loan Thread)

unokitty

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Jan 5, 2012
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... US Congressional Budget Office, in releasing its ten-year projections for the Department of Education, revealed that the government is projected to profit from student loan debts over the next ten years — to the tune of $127 billion.

... all that profit from student loans is expected to be allocated for general government spending, so that Uncle Sam could use interest payments collected from students to pay off the government’s debts.

That’s right: the government is using America’s youth as a credit card

...A 2011 Institute for Higher Education Policy study on student loan delinquency showed that 41 percent of student borrowers who began repaying loan in 2005 couldn’t make loan payments at all...

The situation was pithily summed up by Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz, one of the nation’s most famous living economists, in the title of a 2013 New York Times opinion piece: “Student Debt and the Crushing of the American Dream.”.

Interesting article.

On the one hand, it tells us that the CBO projects a $127 billion profit.

On the other hand, it tells us that the Institute for Higher Education Policy study shows that 41 percent of student loan borrowers couldn't make loan payments at all..

Anyway, what is your opinion?

Is it good for the government to take $127 billion dollars in profit from student loans and put it in their 'general' fund?

Or, is that $127 billion projected profit just an illusion?

Or do you have a different insight?

Uno
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
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If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. -Milton Friedman

How government operates is more important than any amount of money they find a way to take from their growing reach of tentacles into every facet of American life.

Beyond that, the CBO consistently wrong about everything. They get fed manipulated data sets to fit agendas of their captors.

Before we talk about the possible profiteering of bureaucrats off of kids looking to get a college education I think it's important to note that the crisis in college affordability and debt loads students take to get through college was created by bureaucrats doing what they think is best rather than what actually is best. A subtle if non important distinction for many who hold elected office, but the crux of the matter regardless. We now have a glut of worthless papers colored with college degree insignia and an army of uneducated, entitled morons getting set free into the workforce.


If they make 127billion or whatever the number is, I'd say the important thing to note is that the money will be used to pay out to lobbyists and other areas to keep bureaucrats cozy. Were the number used to actually help folks rather than get siphoned off into crony capitalists and a bureaucratic black hole of inefficiency and waste I wouldn't be nearly as opposed to government take over of the student loan debt business.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Interesting article.

On the one hand, it tells us that the CBO projects a $127 billion profit.

On the other hand, it tells us that the Institute for Higher Education Policy study shows that 41 percent of student loan borrowers couldn't make loan payments at all..

Anyway, what is your opinion?

Is it good for the government to take $127 billion dollars in profit from student loans and put it in their 'general' fund?

Or, is that $127 billion projected profit just an illusion?

Or do you have a different insight?

Uno

One thing to note: the government actually loses a small amount of money on undergraduate student loans. It makes money on grad school loans.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Tough question I know any sales person or organization selling something like a degree will always raise prices to match what the consumer has. So if I know everyone gets a 10k guaranteed loan then there is no reason to price below that, in fact you want to be above the 10k figure. To me State schools should be nearly free, basically what it costs to run after tax payer contributions. I know private schools will offer better education but the only way to get lower pricing pressure on them is to have other schools that will educate people for a reasonable rate.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Tough question I know any sales person or organization selling something like a degree will always raise prices to match what the consumer has. So if I know everyone gets a 10k guaranteed loan then there is no reason to price below that, in fact you want to be above the 10k figure. To me State schools should be nearly free, basically what it costs to run after tax payer contributions. I know private schools will offer better education but the only way to get lower pricing pressure on them is to have other schools that will educate people for a reasonable rate.

Interestingly, there has been some research on tuition inflation as it relates to student loan availability and the correlation is actually quite low.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Interestingly, there has been some research on tuition inflation as it relates to student loan availability and the correlation is actually quite low.

Could be correct however I have trouble believing it with my 20 years of sales experience/sales management experience. I wish I knew the answer because education is taking the same trend health care is, soon it will be affordable for most
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
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Interestingly, there has been some research on tuition inflation as it relates to student loan availability and the correlation is actually quite low.

Part of the rising tuition costs are clearly due large state funding cuts, it's own topic, but easy access to loans is a ringer for rising tuition costs. There's also the growth of administration positions and salaries. But, we've got a trillion dollar student loan bubble that has been pumping up tuition costs as well. This has fed on itself for years. That easy money had a substantial effect simply based on its current size.

We saw the same thing happen in the housing crash. Expand the market for easy money and whatever that easy money is pointed at is going to inflate.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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The profit is a gimmick. First off, $127bn is a fucking joke - that's only $12.7bn/yr, or 1.27%, for what? Taking the risk that students won't pay the debt back?

Second, that is assuming you are using the risk-free rate of government debt *and* not match-fund the actual asset. If a risky rate *and* match funding were to occur that $12.7bn/yr would completely disappear and the reality of the situation would set in.

US taxpayers are getting anally raped with a barb wire covered broompole with no lube, repeatedly.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
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Remember when people paid for college by being a waiter over the summer. Yea me either it was 20 years before I was born. Those same people however won't shut up with the "it worked for me" bias but couldn't even rattle off the current interest rate on undergrad/graduate loans. Then some rambling about high interest rates in the 70's as if that matters when people rack up huge principles.

Remember that article about the lawyer who paid off his student loans with his first paycheck? Me either you'd need a time machine and dial it back two decades. I'm sick of advice that is about two decades past its expiration.

Don't get me wrong I'm doing okay for myself but the average person is completely screwed.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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The profit is a gimmick. First off, $127bn is a fucking joke - that's only $12.7bn/yr, or 1.27%, for what? Taking the risk that students won't pay the debt back?

Second, that is assuming you are using the risk-free rate of government debt *and* not match-fund the actual asset. If a risky rate *and* match funding were to occur that $12.7bn/yr would completely disappear and the reality of the situation would set in.

US taxpayers are getting anally raped with a barb wire covered broompole with no lube, repeatedly.
How do you figure that? At worst it's a barely profitable loan business that would be unattractive to the private sector were it not for government loan guarantees. If the students get an otherwise non-existent opportunity to better themselves and the government gets better educated citizens, seems like a win-win to me as long as recipients pay them back. In fact, my preference would be for profit to go back into the student loan program, albeit with the structural revisions.

Full disclosure - I have never had a student loan as my father owned part of an auto parts store and for eligibility the entire value of the store is counted as an asset, making me ineligible even though he owned but 1/4 of it at that time, so I'm not justifying my own use of it.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
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How do you figure that? At worst it's a barely profitable loan business that would be unattractive to the private sector were it not for government loan guarantees. If the students get an otherwise non-existent opportunity to better themselves and the government gets better educated citizens, seems like a win-win to me as long as recipients pay them back. In fact, my preference would be for profit to go back into the student loan program, albeit with the structural revisions.

Full disclosure - I have never had a student loan as my father owned part of an auto parts store and for eligibility the entire value of the store is counted as an asset, making me ineligible even though he owned but 1/4 of it at that time, so I'm not justifying my own use of it.

Again, from a deployment of risky capital *and* match funding the asset it is massively unprofitable.

To take a step backward, you have to look at the performance data and the current default information.

Only about 50-70% of students are actually paying their loans. Thus, any delinquency or default data you use has to be measured against the *paying* population. Current delinquencies run in the 11-15% area, overall severe delinquencies are ~11% of the population, or more than 22% of paying loans. Default rates, estimated by the DoE, run in the 16-17% area, but that number has been increasing by ~1-2% per year as the problem is gaining momentum. Remember that this problem has gained speed quickly over the past decade and students are in school at least 4 of those years, thus, our data is at least 4 years stale.

The only way this has been kept this low is non-dischargability. Default rates were roughly double what they were for a seasoned cohort prior to non-dischargability. They were 12-15% IIRC, pre-crisis they were ~6%. Thus, you could estimate that default rates currently, with dischargability would be 20-30%, not 16-17%. As I said before, this is gaining momentum.

The data we see sucks. I spent a lot of time look at FFELP loan pools since they are the ones private parties could "purchase" through securitization. The data is horrible. Usually 20%+ of the pools are in forbearance or deferment, if not 30-40%. The default data we have is understated due to them using the entire population, not the paying population, and the prepayment data is worse. This is for loans that are now ~4 years seasoned since they got rid of the FFELP program.

Now the biggest thing being blown around is "loan affordability". Why? Because they know the loans are unsustainable for a "normal" person. Thus they end up putting people on income based repayment where they pay ~10% of their disposable income and then get the loan forgiven in 20-25 years. The problem with this is that the 10% payment is almost always a negative amortizing loan.

Think of it this way. A person making 30k with 60k in loans will have a monthly loan payment of $673/mo. Under Pay as you earn the payment would be ~110/mo, which results in a underpayment of $573/mo and a neg-am of more than $220, but the government doesn't capitalize that interest. That is key, more than 2/3 of their "excess spread" (interest rate - funding cost - default rate - servicing fee) is gone. That is huge.

Furthermore, as loan pools pay down the payment statistics worsen, resulting in a pretty large extension as prepayments drop, defaults slow and forbearance/deferments increase.

As more borrowers are stuck on PYE/IBR and debt loans increase, the worse the situation becomes. It only builds on itself as debt loads increase significantly.

Whats worse is that for-profit loans actually default much higher, like 20-30%, and they cost the most while completion rates are the lowest and degree value is horrible.

I could go on and on and on about this. The economics of degrees is being destroyed, quickly, it is something I speak about professionally.
 
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Oct 30, 2004
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US taxpayers are getting anally raped with a barb wire covered broompole with no lube, repeatedly.

Well, yeah, but think of the benefits! Everyone can have touchy feely feelings knowing that everyone can go to college! Even people with Down Syndrome can graduate with four year degrees today.

Could you imagine what would happen if the government had to start telling people that we have to limit the number of graduates produced in various fields because there aren't enough jobs for those graduates? The cries of oppression and racial discrimination would be massive.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Again, from a deployment of risky capital *and* match funding the asset it is massively unprofitable.

To take a step backward, you have to look at the performance data and the current default information.

Only about 50-70% of students are actually paying their loans. Thus, any delinquency or default data you use has to be measured against the *paying* population. Current delinquencies run in the 11-15% area, overall severe delinquencies are ~11% of the population, or more than 22% of paying loans. Default rates, estimated by the DoE, run in the 16-17% area, but that number has been increasing by ~1-2% per year as the problem is gaining momentum. Remember that this problem has gained speed quickly over the past decade and students are in school at least 4 of those years, thus, our data is at least 4 years stale.

The only way this has been kept this low is non-dischargability. Default rates were roughly double what they were for a seasoned cohort prior to non-dischargability. They were 12-15% IIRC, pre-crisis they were ~6%. Thus, you could estimate that default rates currently, with dischargability would be 20-30%, not 16-17%. As I said before, this is gaining momentum.

The data we see sucks. I spent a lot of time look at FFELP loan pools since they are the ones private parties could "purchase" through securitization. The data is horrible. Usually 20%+ of the pools are in forbearance or deferment, if not 30-40%. The default data we have is understated due to them using the entire population, not the paying population, and the prepayment data is worse. This is for loans that are now ~4 years seasoned since they got rid of the FFELP program.

Now the biggest thing being blown around is "loan affordability". Why? Because they know the loans are unsustainable for a "normal" person. Thus they end up putting people on income based repayment where they pay ~10% of their disposable income and then get the loan forgiven in 20-25 years. The problem with this is that the 10% payment is almost always a negative amortizing loan.

Think of it this way. A person making 30k with 60k in loans will have a monthly loan payment of $673/mo. Under Pay as you earn the payment would be ~110/mo, which results in a underpayment of $573/mo and a neg-am of more than $220, but the government doesn't capitalize that interest. That is key, more than 2/3 of their "excess spread" (interest rate - funding cost - default rate - servicing fee) is gone. That is huge.

Furthermore, as loan pools pay down the payment statistics worsen, resulting in a pretty large extension as prepayments drop, defaults slow and forbearance/deferments increase.

As more borrowers are stuck on PYE/IBR and debt loans increase, the worse the situation becomes. It only builds on itself as debt loads increase significantly.

Whats worse is that for-profit loans actually default much higher, like 20-30%, and they cost the most while completion rates are the lowest and degree value is horrible.

I could go on and on and on about this. The economics of degrees is being destroyed, quickly, it is something I speak about professionally.
Very interesting, and thanks for the detailed reply. Sounds like we need to fundamentally revise our loan system. Problem is, the thing that makes the most sense financially seems pretty top-loaded. If one is attending an Ivy league school, one will probably be able to pay back one's loans regardless of major. They are just valuable degrees almost without regard to curricula. However, restricting loans to top tier schools is hardly fair to the majority of people with little prospect of attending those universities. An intelligent evaluation of our true needs would be one way to limit loans, but for one thing government is not exactly good at predicting future needs, and for another, that leads to people who don't really want to be engineers or accountants going to school to be engineers or accountants because that's where the loans are at the moment. Beyond tieing loans to maintaining good grades, one common sense step, do you see a real solution that works socially?
 

postmortemIA

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2006
7,721
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just let more h1b's in to depress engineering wages that'll solve the problem.

Any h1bs make things worse because they can work for less. They are not in debt in US levels. The system has failed, but people with jobs don't care as they are busy either chasing latest smartphone or paying other bills.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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Any h1bs make things worse because they can work for less. They are not in debt in US levels. The system has failed, but people with jobs don't care as they are busy either chasing latest smartphone or paying other bills.

I know I was being facetious.

people do care its just these economics are hidden behind practically a degree. it took me years to learn enough to see the end of this tunnel. granted I did not have the benefit of hundreds of other forum goers tracking down the details for me but still...you only find this stuff if you're searching for it.
we have the media to blame, and politicians. People are too busy living their lives to have time like us single nerds to figure this out. Remember, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. You cannot have a good society without good men. It was a long time ago that moral integrity and wisdom were valued traits. Now its about me, what's best for me, and how to screw the hard working guys under you. We get what we deserve. We deserve this.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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If you think about it, it is quite ingenious by the government to come up with such a revenue source.

They key here is that government student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy. This allows the government to offer cheaper rates than anyone else.

Because of these cheap rates, colleges can overcharge for their services since they know that the government will be there to front the payment. Growth of education expenses will keep feeding on itself until it reaches a limit. At that point, the system will either explode, gradually decline, or remain constant.

There is only one way to fix this. That is to allow all new government loans to students to be discharged in bankruptcy.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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If you think about it, it is quite ingenious by the government to come up with such a revenue source.

They key here is that government student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy. This allows the government to offer cheaper rates than anyone else.

Because of these cheap rates, colleges can overcharge for their services since they know that the government will be there to front the payment. Growth of education expenses will keep feeding on itself until it reaches a limit. At that point, the system will either explode, gradually decline, or remain constant.

There is only one way to fix this. That is to allow all new government loans to students to be discharged in bankruptcy.

Without the government guaranteeing payment there would be basically no student loans at all.

Student loans would still need to be treated far differently than normal loans in bankruptcy. I'm all for making them dischargeable, but only in extreme circumstances.

Also, there is little to no correlation between the availability of student loans and tuition inflation.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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2
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Without the government guaranteeing payment there would be basically no student loans at all.

The government can still guarantee loans if they want. They just can't be immune to discharge in bankruptcy.

Student loans would still need to be treated far differently than normal loans in bankruptcy. I'm all for making them dis chargeable, but only in extreme circumstances.
That defeats the whole point. Make the loan less risky for someone and the rates go down, increasing tuition!

Also, there is little to no correlation between the availability of student loans and tuition inflation.

Student loan taken vs tuition increase. Just went to the first website where I could see charts of both student loan taken that year vs tuition that year. Both seem to follow the same trend.

As I mentioned before, the tuition increase won't be a step change. There was a shift to make student loans more affordable. From that point, it will slowly rise till it levels of at some new norm.

http://financemymoney.com/student-l...cational-outcomes-bubble-in-higher-education/
 

pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
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What if we limited loan amounts depending on the future earnings potential of the degree? So Engineering and Accounting majors are allowed to have a greater amount of debt than English or Art History majors?
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Nobody is addressing the question why are tuition's increasing at a faster rate than earnings and why do prices increase in this industry with multiple education options where as competition generally lowers cost in almost every other industry.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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The government can still guarantee loans if they want. They just can't be immune to discharge in bankruptcy.

That defeats the whole point. Make the loan less risky for someone and the rates go down, increasing tuition!

If you make loans without collateral dischargeable through bankruptcy what sane person wouldn't just run up a huge tab of student loans, get like five degrees, and then declare bankruptcy? They can't repossess your brain.

Student loan taken vs tuition increase. Just went to the first website where I could see charts of both student loan taken that year vs tuition that year. Both seem to follow the same trend.

As I mentioned before, the tuition increase won't be a step change. There was a shift to make student loans more affordable. From that point, it will slowly rise till it levels of at some new norm.

http://financemymoney.com/student-l...cational-outcomes-bubble-in-higher-education/

That inference has an autocorrelation problem. Of course student loan $$ goes up as tuition goes up, as college is getting more expensive. The loan number is a function of the tuition cost. This does not mean that the availability of loans CAUSES the tuition increase. A better example would be to look across countries and areas that shifted their student loan availability/criteria and then looked at resulting changes in tuition. This has been done and there is not much of a correlation.