US to Sadr - Surrender or Die

[syzygy]

that bug and his minions are on their last tether . . .. hopefully.

cnn link

its a disgrace that these hoodlums have been allowed the run of the city. this bug has been
allowed to engage in his power play at the expense of law and order, sacrificing his own,
harming the economy in the south, and ruining the lives of the vast majority of people
who want nothing to do with him.

the us needs to whittle the criminal elements down to the disaffected former baathists
who remain the most dangerous de-stabilizing force. sadr's clowns are hapless rubes
with weapons infinitely more sophisticated than themselves. they remind me of third
world guerrilla scrubs, only a little older in average age.

 

[Drift3r]

I don't see it happening anytime soon. Al Sadr is slowly gaining more and more power in the south and Al Sistani is on his way out because he is to old, sick and weak to do anything. Then again he was to old, to sick and to weak to do anything about Saddam as well when he kill Al Sadr's father. At least this is how it seems to look like in the eyes of many Shiites.

Al Sadr has already garned support from many Shiite leaders recently who previously have not allied themselves with him before in the past. Also the fact that the oil companies in the south have sat done and hammered out a deal with Al Sadr to prevent attacks also shows the extent of his power base in the south. Northen oil fields are all but useless because of Sunni insurgent attacks in the north and the south is the only region still able to pump out oil at normal levels because they have been pretty much left alone.

Some say that Al Sadr may have up to 30,000+ followers all trained or supported by Iran in some way or fashion. I think Iran now views Al Sadr with much interest then before. Previoulsy Al Sistani garnered much of the Iranian support in the south but that is changing as it appears that his health is wanning. If we go guns a blazing into the Holy City of NAfja then more then likely we'll see a Shiite style insurgency similar to the Sunni one up north. Which if it materilizes will not be very helpful US forces or to the interm goverment who has a hard enough time dealing with Sunni insurgents as it is. Also most Shiites will view a harsh crack down as them being singled out since we basically gave the Sunni city of Fallujah a pat on the hand and nothing else.

 

[arsbanned]

that bug and his minions are on their last tether . . .. hopefully.

Yeah, you like it when the U.S. pulls out the big stick, don't you. You probably think we should "NUKE 'EM!"
After all, they're just little brown people, right? What gives them the right to challenge the big bad U.S.!!!!!?

One problem, this will serve to increase terrorist recruitment. Nice job making the World a "safer place" 'cons.

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
I don't see it happening anytime soon. Al Sadr is slowly gaining more and more power in the south and Al Sistani is on his way out because he is to old, sick and weak to do anything. Then again he was to old, to sick and to weak to do anything about Saddam as well when he kill Al Sadr's father

the fact sistani is old counts for him, not against him. age is more golden there than here. where did
you read that al-sistani was 'on his way out' ? 'harvey weinsein is on his way out of disney' is what you
should have said. makes more sense. sistani will retire as prime marja when he dies - or is severely
incapacitated by injury. not before. the fact that sistani did not butt heads with saddam had nothing
to do with the inane list of reasons you cite.

At least this is how it seems to look like in the eyes of many Shiites.

i'm sorry but YOU don't count 'as the eyes of many shiites'. you count, 'at the least', as one
liberal hoping for the worst. you inflate this sadr-know-nothing into unsupportable dimensions
in the hope that he does suceed in sowing greater chaos and destibilizing the country further. a
healthy iraq just doesn't jibe with your ideological hopes.

Al Sadr has already garned support from many Shiite leaders recently who previously have not allied themselves with him before in the past. Also the fact that the oil companies in the south have sat done and hammered out a deal with Al Sadr to prevent attacks also shows the extent of his power base in the south. Northen oil fields are all but useless because of Sunni insurgent attacks in the north and the south is the only region still able to pump out oil at normal levels because they have been pretty much left alone.

mere accomodations. his power base is concentrated to not a city but to a specific neighborhod
within a city. sympathies for him spread to the same elements that are already engaged in ugly
criminal acts. this gives his support the illusion of greater strength because violence attracts
attention in far greater proportion than it merits. the nature of those sympathizers is the same. .
loose and disorganized and fueled by treatable frustrations. sadr is in essence an exploiter and
the further away from his traditional base you go the less intimate his grip becomes. his hold on
his immediate followers, the militia itself, was inherited from his father and had been constructed
over years, if not decades. the same cannot be said for people cheering for him elsewhere. with
these people, a simple addressing of their daily needs can redirect their frustrations into legal
directions.

Some say that Al Sadr may have up to 30,000+ followers all trained or supported by Iran in some way or fashion. I think Iran now views Al Sadr with much interest then before. Previoulsy Al Sistani garnered much of the Iranian support in the south but that is changing as it appears that his health is wanning. If we go guns a blazing into the Holy City of NAfja then more then likely we'll see a Shiite style insurgency similar to the Sunni one up north. Which if it materilizes will not be very helpful US forces or to the interm goverment who has a hard enough time dealing with Sunni insurgents as it is. Also most Shiites will view a harsh crack down as them being singled out since we basically gave the Sunni city of Fallujah a pat on the hand and nothing else.

some are speaking from their wet dreams. 30,000 ? you left out a few zeroes. the number is more like
3,000,000,000,000. you may not think that there are that many iraqis, or people on earth, but don't be
fooled, 'cause 'some people' say sadr can channel saladin's ghost warriors from out of the sands of the
levant.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
I don't see it happening anytime soon. Al Sadr is slowly gaining more and more power in the south and Al Sistani is on his way out because he is to old, sick and weak to do anything. Then again he was to old, to sick and to weak to do anything about Saddam as well when he kill Al Sadr's father. At least this is how it seems to look like in the eyes of many Shiites.

Al Sadr has already garned support from many Shiite leaders recently who previously have not allied themselves with him before in the past. Also the fact that the oil companies in the south have sat done and hammered out a deal with Al Sadr to prevent attacks also shows the extent of his power base in the south. Northen oil fields are all but useless because of Sunni insurgent attacks in the north and the south is the only region still able to pump out oil at normal levels because they have been pretty much left alone.

Some say that Al Sadr may have up to 30,000+ followers all trained or supported by Iran in some way or fashion. I think Iran now views Al Sadr with much interest then before. Previoulsy Al Sistani garnered much of the Iranian support in the south but that is changing as it appears that his health is wanning. If we go guns a blazing into the Holy City of NAfja then more then likely we'll see a Shiite style insurgency similar to the Sunni one up north. Which if it materilizes will not be very helpful US forces or to the interm goverment who has a hard enough time dealing with Sunni insurgents as it is. Also most Shiites will view a harsh crack down as them being singled out since we basically gave the Sunni city of Fallujah a pat on the hand and nothing else.

Drifter: Where are you getting all this craziness from? The only things I've read (from Iraqi blogs) are:

~2-3K militia
sistani left so that the US could take out Sadr
We've been "guns blazing" in Najaf for 6 days now, with support from the governor and the population

Or are you just cheerleading the US opposition? Gimme an "S", gimme an "A"...

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Drift3r
I don't see it happening anytime soon. Al Sadr is slowly gaining more and more power in the south and Al Sistani is on his way out because he is to old, sick and weak to do anything. Then again he was to old, to sick and to weak to do anything about Saddam as well when he kill Al Sadr's father. At least this is how it seems to look like in the eyes of many Shiites.

Al Sadr has already garned support from many Shiite leaders recently who previously have not allied themselves with him before in the past. Also the fact that the oil companies in the south have sat done and hammered out a deal with Al Sadr to prevent attacks also shows the extent of his power base in the south. Northen oil fields are all but useless because of Sunni insurgent attacks in the north and the south is the only region still able to pump out oil at normal levels because they have been pretty much left alone.

Some say that Al Sadr may have up to 30,000+ followers all trained or supported by Iran in some way or fashion. I think Iran now views Al Sadr with much interest then before. Previoulsy Al Sistani garnered much of the Iranian support in the south but that is changing as it appears that his health is wanning. If we go guns a blazing into the Holy City of NAfja then more then likely we'll see a Shiite style insurgency similar to the Sunni one up north. Which if it materilizes will not be very helpful US forces or to the interm goverment who has a hard enough time dealing with Sunni insurgents as it is. Also most Shiites will view a harsh crack down as them being singled out since we basically gave the Sunni city of Fallujah a pat on the hand and nothing else.

Drifter: Where are you getting all this craziness from? The only things I've read (from Iraqi blogs) are:

~2-3K militia
sistani left so that the US could take out Sadr
We've been "guns blazing" in Najaf for 6 days now, with support from the governor and the population

Or are you just cheerleading the US opposition? Gimme an "S", gimme an "A"...

you all should come on over here. All your man we are going to so get them evildoers talk is a lot more complicated when you have to think about the consequences of your actions. This isn't a military problem, it is a political problem which is far more complicated.

Al Sistani is most definately not weak and irrelevant as a previous poster stated, and thier is some debate as to why he left the country. His words hold a lot more weight with the Shia over here than Al Sadr. Al Sadr is not as powerful a leader as Al Sistani..but he is definately the most visible in the media and has a large base of support amongst Shia. His militia is also much larger tha 2-3k as a previous poster stated, and he has the potential to draw a lot more people into the battle who aren't formally part of the militia. We aren't going to try to kill him deliberately. The whole surrender or die thing is aimed at the militia on the street.

This whole thing will hopefully blow over, and Al Sadr will use it to stand in the elections next year. Building credibility with blood.

 

[syzygy]

Al Sistani is most definately not weak and irrelevant as a previous poster stated, and thier is some debate as to why he left the country. His words hold a lot more weight with the Shia over here than Al Sadr. Al Sadr is not as powerful a leader as Al Sistani..but he is definately the most visible in the media and has a large base of support amongst Shia. His militia is also much larger tha 2-3k as a previous poster stated, and he has the potential to draw a lot more people into the battle who aren't formally part of the militia. We aren't going to try to kill him deliberately. The whole surrender or die thing is aimed at the militia on the street.

sadr's rep is built upon the noise he creates, the people he has killed, and the name he carries.
his father was grand ayatollah (prior to sistani), murdered by saddam, embittering his son, and
sending him on a wild ride of un-islamic revenge.

the boy is a criminal. his father had more chutzpah than was healthy in ba'athist iraq, but at
least the father had a solid philosophical grounding and wasn't prone to gangsterism. the boy
has ruined his father's legacy, shamed the faith, and is running on the strength of his guns.
his rough credentials are straight-up compton via meccca, whereas sistani has earned and
maintains a rep as a gentle scholar, law-abiding, steeped in the kind of islam the world
needs to see more of.

the media hype is doing a grave disservice on many fronts. sadr the gangster needs to die.

 

[kage69]

sadr the gangster needs to die

I hate to say, but I agree.

 

[Martin]

The this is an act of desperation from the rebels, they don't have much time left has been repeated for more than a year now.

 

[Todd33]

This is an internal Iraqi problem. We should not use our troops for this. Al Sadr is a Muslem Cleric born and raised in Iraq, not a foreign fighter.

He is already a very popular figure, even dead he will continue to rally muslim jihad fighters. Anyone that thinks we can just kill until victory does not understand Islamic teachings.

Welcome to Bush's Vietnam.

 

[cpumaster]

I agree US need to get rid of Sadr as he has neither contributed positively to the development of Iraq nor has he shown willingness to participate in the creation of stable & secure environment for next year election. Yet getting rid of him is easier said than done, as the act itself could very well create more groundswell support for him. I know if you read the news, many in Iraq has claimed that they are fed up with Sadr's act, yet if in the process of capturing him, we ended up damaging the holy site of Shiites, or killing too many civilian, the opinion could quickly turn against us. Iraqis are very flaky that way, especially we are foreigners & almost universally regarded as occupiers now, instead of liberators. US has to walk a very fine line, use the Iraqis army & police as the public face in attacking the Sadrists, and only launch any heavy attack at night or dawn if possible, where the civilian casualties could be minimized compare to daylight battle.
In the previous fight, we can't finish the job partly because we underestimated the Sadr resolve & support, and also because the Iraqis army and police are not ready to go to war with us yet. We were also prohibited from going into the mosques & other holy sites, which the sadrists used this restriction to their advantage. This time, either the restriction is decreased or we could rely more on the Iraqis to do the job they're suppose to do.
Still, never underestimate Al-Sadr cunningness or the brain behind him. I bet we will hear a lot of conflicting report in coming battle, either about compromise, deal & breaking deal, inflated number of casualties, etc hey, the arabs are very good at the art of making deal during war, it's in their blood, growing up in conflict-ridden region for thousand of years. They also know how to manipulate the news/media to their advantage to influence our view back home. That art is not the monopoly of the conservative or liberal only.

 

[AcidicFury]

Originally posted by: syzygy

some are speaking from their wet dreams. 30,000 ? you left out a few zeroes. the number is more like
3,000,000,000,000. you may not think that there are that many iraqis, or people on earth, but don't be
fooled, 'cause 'some people' say sadr can channel saladin's ghost warriors from out of the sands of the
levant.

There are 3 trillion Al-Sadr followers? Last time I checked there were only 6.3 billion people in the world.