US strike kills 11 Pakistani soldiers

The Green Bean

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11 Pakistan soldiers killed in border missile strike: officials PESHAWAR, June 11 (AFP): At least 11 Pakistani troops were killed and nine wounded early Wednesday when a missile fired from Afghanistan hit their border post after clashes with Afghan forces, officials said. The incident followed intense fighting between Pakistani paramilitary troops deployed in Mohmand tribal region and Afghan forces who claimed the area was part of their territory, the Pakistani officials said. ?Sometime after midnight a missile fired from the Afghan side struck our post resulting in the martyrdom of at least 11 soldiers including a commanding officer. Nine soldiers were wounded,? one security official told AFP. ?The injured and the dead bodies have been retrieved. The troops are still holding on to the post.? Officials said Pakistani forces repulsed an attempt by Afghan forces to capture strategic heights in the Soran Dara area, which borders the Afghan province of Nangarhar. The paramilitary Frontier Corps sent reinforcements to the area on Tuesday. Pakistani and Afghan military spokesmen were not immediately contactable while the US-led coalition in Afghanistan declined to comment. (First Posted @ 09:50 PST, Updated @ 12:45 PST)

How dare Americans blame us for not doing enough and giving free passage to the Taliban to carry out hit-and-run attacks when they can't even stop heavy weapon attacks and border skirmishes? The so called new Afghan army has become a nuisance and has been fighting us ever since the took control and NATO does nothing while they expect to clean up their Taliban mess! Some people may now see why the Taliban was better for us than a puppet government bent on killing its neighbors when it doesn't even control half its own territory.

This is an act of war and NATO should be held fully responsible and accountable for it.

Update

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Pakistan has expressed outrage at a U.S. airstrike in a disputed region along the Afghan border which it says killed 11 of its forces who were cooperating with the U.S.-led war on terror.

The U.S. military has not released an official statement on the incident, but a U.S. official with knowledge of the reports told CNN that Tuesday's airstrike targeted suspected militants who had fled into Pakistan after conducting an ambush on the Afghan side of the border.

The official said Pakistani military officials worked with the U.S. forces to track the militants as they fled across the border into Pakistan. He said the mission was permitted under the rules of engagement which allowed "hot pursuit" across the border of suspected militants when locations were verified.

But Pakistan's military -- which described the airstrike as a "completely unprovoked and cowardly act" -- had a different account.

The top spokesman for Pakistan army's Gen. Athar Abbas told CNN the airstrike happened after U.S. forces were called in by Afghan troops who had engaged in a border clash with Taliban forces.

The Taliban forces fired on the Afghan troops as they tried to set up a checkpoint in a disputed area along the Afghan-Pakistan border, Abbas said.

The Afghan troops then called for help from the U.S.-led coalition forces, which carried out an airstrike on positions where Pakistani frontier corps forces were stationed, Abbas said.

Muhammad Amir Rana, of Pakistan's Institute of Peace, said NATO troops also came to the area to assist Afghan soldiers.

Abbas said the airstrike killed 11 Pakistani forces, including a high-ranking major, and wounded seven others, he said.

The Pakistani military and the Foreign Ministry have issued an official protest condemning the attack, Abbas said.

A Pakistani military statement said the strike "hit at the very basis of cooperation and sacrifice with which Pakistani soldiers are supporting the coalition in war against terror."

The unnamed U.S. official said it was not clear if the U.S. aircraft entered Pakistani airspace when they carried out the airstrikes. U.S. and Pakistani military officials tracked the militants as they fled into Pakistan and their location was verified by a U.S. drone flying overhead, he said.

Two U.S. Air Force F-15E aircraft dropped three 500-pound bombs and a single laser-guided bomb inside Pakistan, he said. Also, he said a B-1 bomber dropped six 500-pound bombs.

He added that U.S. ground forces inside Afghanistan also fired artillery toward the fleeing militants as they fled into Pakistan.

Earlier, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan said its forces were fired on near the border with Pakistan and they responded.

The U.S. official said initial reports indicated seven were killed on the ground, but the U.S. military could not confirm their identities. He said the investigation would attempt to determine if Pakistani troops were among those killed either there or at nearby points where border clashes were common.

The Pakistani military said the incident happened at a military check post in Gora Prai in Mohmand Agency near the Afghan border.

Both Afghanistan and Pakistan claim Mohmand as part of their territory.

In recent months, Pakistani officials have blamed U.S-led forces of launching missile strikes into its territory from Afghanistan. One such attack in the tribal region of Bajaur killed 14 people on May 14.

The Pakistani army has said that such attacks only make the job of securing the border more difficult.

"It's not fair," Abbas told CNN. "The kind of effects it creates -- it's not only local. It's also within the country. And that is not good for any coalition.

"An act of this kind it certainly creates difficulties for both sides," he said.

Both Pakistan and Afghanistan are key U.S. allies in America's "war on terror."

Each side is battling a common foe -- Islamic militants who have launched deadly attacks targeting troops and civilians in both countries.

On Monday, U.S. think tank the Rand Corporation released a report that said some members of Pakistan's intelligence service and the Frontier Corps were helping insurgents in Afghanistan.

The study, funded by the U.S. Defense Department, alleged that members of the two agencies often tipped off militants to the location and movement of coalition forces trying to rout them. It also said personnel within the agencies trained fighters at camps in Pakistan, financed them and helped them cross the border into Afghanistan.

The Pakistani military denied that and denounced the report, calling it a "smear campaign" designed to "create doubts and suspicion in the minds of (the) target audience."

"This is a poorly fabricated story to create distrust between the two armed forces," the military said in a statement Tuesday.

I can now confidently say this will be the end of any Pakistani cooperation with the US and NATO in Afghanistan. Good luck dealing with landlocked Afghanistan with Iran on one side, Pakistan on another and Former Soviets republics to the north. I won't be surprised if the war in Afghanistan will now cost you more than Iraq.

Pakistan slams 'cowardly' US-led forces attack killing 11 soldiers PESHAWAR, Pakistan, June 11 (AFP): Pakistan Wednesday said a ?cowardly? air strike by US-led forces killed 11 Pakistani troops Wednesday near the Afghan border and warned it could undermine cooperation in the war against terrorism. The army accused the US-led coalition in Afghanistan of launching the unprovoked attack on a checkpost in Pakistan's Mohmand tribal zone, while the foreign office called for an immediate investigation. In Kabul, the coalition admitted carrying out an air strike in Pakistani territory but said it was targeted against militants firing at them from near the Pakistani paramilitary outpost. A Pakistani army spokesman ?condemned this completely unprovoked and cowardly act.? ?The incident had hit at the very basis of cooperation and sacrifice with which Pakistani soldiers are supporting the coalition in the war against terror,? the statement quoted the spokesman as saying. ?We condemn it strongly. We will take a stand to preserve the sovereignty, dignity and respect of the country,? Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani told parliament. Pakistan foreign office issued a statement condemning the ?senseless use of air power? by the coalition. ?The attack also tends to undermine the very basis of our cooperation with the coalition forces and warrants a serious rethink on their part of the consequences that could ensue from such rash acts,? it said. Heavily armed Pakistani tribesmen brandishing rocket launchers and Kalashnikov rifles gathered near the checkpost in the mountainous Gora Prai area to show their support to condemn the attack. The US-led coalition said an investigation was ongoing. In a statement, it said its soldiers had repelled a militant attack during an operation in Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province that was previously coordinated with Pakistan. Coalition forces informed the Pakistani army that they were coming under fire from ?anti-Afghan? forces in a wooded area near the Gora Prai checkpoint in Pakistan, it said. Unmanned drone aircraft identified the militants and, ?in self defence,? the coalition fired artillery rounds and then used close-air support ?until the threat was eliminated.? However, Pakistani security officials said the deaths came after Afghan troops crossed the porous frontier and tried to occupy the strategic Pakistani post in the tribal belt. Pakistani troops repulsed the Afghan soldiers and the coalition then bombed the area. Coalition aircraft also killed around 15 Taliban militants about a kilometre away, the officials said. A spokesman for Pakistani Taliban militants, Maulvi Omar, said eight ?mujahedeen? were killed by coalition helicopters. (Posted @ 20:40 PST)


Update 2

The Pentagon has said an air strike by US forces in the Afghan-Pakistani border region, said to have killed 11 Pakistani soldiers, was legitimate.

It said US forces had acted in self-defence after coming under attack in clashes with pro-Taleban militias.

The US state department described the deaths as regrettable, and said there was a need for better communication.

Pakistan's military said earlier that the soldiers had died as a result of an "unprovoked and cowardly act".

The incident took place on Tuesday night at a border post in the mountainous Gora Prai region of Mohmand, one of Pakistan's tribal areas, across the border from Afghanistan's Kunar province.

The US military confirmed that its forces based on the Afghan side of the border had launched artillery and air strikes after coming under fire from pro-Taleban forces.


Eight Taleban militants were also killed in the clashes, a Taleban spokesman said.

The incident comes at a time of tension between Pakistan and the US over how to deal with militants in border areas, the BBC's Kim Ghattas reports from Washington.

A statement from coalition forces in Afghanistan made no reference to the Pakistani deaths

"Every indication we have at this point is that this was indeed a legitimate strike in defence of our forces after they came under attack," spokesman Geoff Morrell told reporters.

While the US military greatly valued its relationship with its Pakistani ally, he added, US forces were "within their rights to take the action they took".

Sovereignty

Expressing regret, the US state department said the incident was a reminder that "better cross-border communications between forces is vital".

The 11 Pakistani soldiers were being buried on Wednesday in the north-western city of Peshawar.

A Pakistani army statement said the incident had "hit at the very basis of co-operation" with the US.

Prime Minister Gilani condemned the deaths in parliament saying that Pakistan's sovereignty was at stake.

Please turn on JavaScript. Media requires JavaScript to play.

Funerals have been held for the 11 soldiers who died

A spokesman for a pro-Taleban militant group in Pakistan said it had launched an attack on US and Afghan troops trying to set up a border control post.

In Peshawar, a relative of the one of those wounded in the fighting said that US troops had opened fire on both tribespeople and Pakistani soldiers.

"Then suddenly bomber aircraft came and started bombing," Seed Aman told The Associated Press.

Lawless border

There is increasing anger in Pakistan at US strikes on its territory which have killed more than 50 people this year, says the BBC's Barbara Plett in Islamabad.

Taleban fighters have a strong presence in the border areas of the tribal districts and local administrators have little power there.

There is rising frustration among the Afghans and foreign troops at Pakistani efforts to negotiate peace deals with pro-Taleban militants on its side of the border.

Afghan and US-led forces accuse Islamabad of not doing enough to deny Taleban militants a hiding-place in Pakistan's tribal areas and to stop them from infiltrating the border.

They are worried that the Pakistan government's recent peace talks with the militants there will only give the Taleban more room for manoeuvre.

Pakistan denies the accusations, saying it has lost about 1,000 soldiers fighting militants in the tribal border areas.

Update 3
Afghanistan says attacks into Pakistan justified KABUL, June 15 (AFP) - Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Sunday threatened to attack Taliban insurgents on Pakistani soil, saying his war-torn country had a right to do so out of ?self-defence. ?Afghanistan has the right to destroy terrorist nests on the other side of the border in self-defence,? Karzai told a news conference in Kabul. ?When they cross the border from Pakistan to come and kill Afghans and coalition troops, it gives us exactly the right to go back and do the same,? he added. Karzai also sent a specific warning to fugitive Taliban leader Mullah Omar and Pakistan Taliban warlord Baitullah Mehsud, saying ?Baitullah Mehsud should know that we will go after him now and hit him in his house.? ?Fazlullah and Mehsud or any one behind them must know this, that today's Afghanistan is not the voiceless Afghanistan of yesterday. Today it has both the voice, the tools and courage for action,? Karzai said. ?We'll defeat them and we'll avenge all that they've done in Afghanistan for the past so many years,? he said. Karzai's government suffered a blow on Friday when Taliban militants blasted open the prison in Kandahar city, freeing more than 1,100 prisoners including hundreds of insurgents, according to NATO-led forces. (Posted @ 17:08 PST)

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani has swiftly responded to Afghan President Hamid Karzai?s harsh warning to Pakistan saying that no one will be allowed to interfere in Pakistan's internal affairs.

President Hamid Karzai had threatened to attack militants within Pakistan's borders, saying his country had a right to do so in self-defence. According to a foreign news agency, Prime Minister Gilani said in an interview that Pakistan would not interfere in the internal affairs of any country and expects others to extend the same courtesy.

The PM said that Afghan President's statement would only hurt the sentiments of those on both sides of the border. He said Pakistan wants "friendly" ties with Kabul. Gilani reiterated that Pakistan is not involved in the war on terror to please America, but to eliminate extremism and terrorism.

WANA: One person was killed as unmanned US drones fired three guided missiles at a house in the Makeen area of South Waziristan on Saturday, a private television channel reported.

According to Express News, the drones fired three missiles at a house in a bid to target the hideout of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan chief Baitullah Mehsud. Locals have recovered one dead body from the debris of the house while more casualties are feared, it said.

Inter-Services Public Relations spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas said he could not confirm the attack or the casualties. Abbas told Daily Times that neither the political agent concerned nor locals could confirm the incident, as there was no military presence in the area.

A local security official, asking not to be named, told AFP that ?extremists tried to hit the drone with a rocket-propelled grenade?. ?The place from where the grenade was fired was then struck by a missile fired by the unmanned drone killing one suspected militant,? the official said.

After the missile attack, the US drones made flights over the Shawal area of North Waziristan, where locals also fired at the planes.

Several missile strikes in the tribal belt this year have been attributed to the US-led coalition based in Afghanistan, killing a number of people.

The incident in Makeen comes just days after an airstrike by US-led coalition forces that had killed 11 Pakistani troops. US officials have said the coalition was legitimately targeting militants but has offered to conduct a joint investigation with Pakistan.

I'll post more on the helicopter intrusion later. But I feel it's only a matter of time before the Pakistani army shoots down a USAF unmanned drone in retaliation. And what the hell does Karzai want? Does he really think he needs to go about invading foreign countries while he doesn't control half his own. This won't end well for him.
 

Painman

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Feb 27, 2000
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Source quote?

This is why Bush is an idiot for taking his eye off the ball - the "Afghan Army" is likely to be largely influenced by the Taliban.

In Iraq, the police/military force there is under partial control by the insurgency.

We're too spent and spread out to do a damn thing about either - and they both know it.

All Hail Commander Codpiece :roll:
 

tvarad

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Jun 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean

How dare Americans blame us for not doing enough and giving free passage to the Taliban to carry out hit-and-run attacks when they can't even stop heavy weapon attacks and border skirmishes? The so called new Afghan army has become a nuisance and has been fighting us ever since the took control and NATO does nothing while they expect to clean up their Taliban mess! Some people may now see why the Taliban was better for us than a puppet government bent on killing its neighbors when it doesn't even control half its own territory.

This is an act of war and NATO should be held fully responsible and accountable for it.

I think the Afghan/Coalition forces have finally had enough of Pakistani BS and are putting Pakistan on notice that giving sanctuary to Pakistan Taliban after attacks in Afghanistan will bear a cost. Pakistanis are worried that Afghans are actually growing a backbone.

 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean

This is an act of war and NATO should be held fully responsible and accountable for it.
The Paks should declare war against NATO and launch a preemptive strike by ordering all their expatriates to shutter their Quikie Marts.

 

palehorse

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Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: tvarad
I think the Afghan/Coalition forces have finally had enough of Pakistani BS and are putting Pakistan on notice that giving sanctuary to Pakistan Taliban after attacks in Afghanistan will bear a cost. Pakistanis are worried that Afghans are actually growing a backbone.
:thumbsup:
 

K1052

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Aug 21, 2003
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Since the OP is too lazy to post a link or entire article:

Pakistan slams US after air strike kills 11 soldiers

1 hour ago

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AFP) ? Pakistan's military condemned a "cowardly" US air strike that killed 11 Pakistani troops near the Afghan border on Wednesday, saying it could jeopardise cooperation in the "war on terror".

The attack on a checkpost in Pakistan's volatile tribal zone was the first of its kind since Islamabad joined Western efforts against the hardline Taliban movement in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

It heightened tensions between Pakistan and the US-led coalition in Afghanistan, which recently warned that the new government's decision to hold peace talks with militants could increase cross-border infiltration.

A Pakistani army spokesman "condemned this completely unprovoked and cowardly act" and blamed the coalition for the "aerial attack" that destroyed a paramilitary post in the Mohmand tribal region, a statement said.

It confirmed that 11 soldiers were killed including an officer.

"The incident had hit at the very basis of cooperation and sacrifice with which Pakistani soldiers are supporting the coalition in the war against terror," it quoted the spokesman as saying.

Pakistan had lodged a strong protest with the coalition, it said.

Heavily armed local tribesmen brandishing rocket launchers and Kalashnikov rifles gathered near the checkpost in the mountainous Gora Prai area to show their support after the attack, residents said.

The US-led coalition in Afghanistan referred queries to the US embassy in Islamabad, which in turn said that the Pentagon was dealing with the matter. The Afghan military made no immediate comment.

Pakistani security officials said the deaths came after Afghan troops crossed the porous frontier and tried to occupy the strategic Pakistani post in the troubled tribal belt, which borders eastern Afghanistan.

The post was in an area that has long been disputed between the two countries.

Pakistani troops repulsed the Afghan soldiers and the coalition then bombed the area. Coalition aircraft also killed around 15 Taliban militants about a kilometre (half a mile) away, the officials said.

A spokesman for Pakistani Taliban militants, Maulvi Omar, said eight "mujahideen (holy warriors)" were killed in an air strike by coalition helicopters.

He also said the rebels had shot down a coalition helicopter and captured seven Afghan soldiers when they were returning from "attacking" the post. There was no confirmation of either claim.

Pakistan has protested over a series of missile strikes attributed to US-led forces in Afghanistan in recent months, including one in the tribal region of Bajaur in May that killed more than a dozen people.

Several Pakistani soldiers have also been killed by stray shells but it appears to be the first time that any have been killed by a targeted air strike by US forces.

Disputes over the 2,500-kilometre (1,500-mile) frontier between Pakistan and Afghanistan, both key allies in the US-led "war on terror," have flared up several times in recent years.

Pakistan's new government, which ousted allies of President Pervez Musharraf in elections in February, has entered peace talks with pro-Taliban militants in the tribal belt, causing concerns among its Western allies.

The attack came two days after a US think tank said in a report that members of Pakistan's intelligence services and its paramilitaries were supporting Taliban insurgents.

The study by the RAND corporation, funded by the US Department of Defence, said that if Taliban bases in Pakistan were not eliminated, the forces supporting the government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai "will face crippling long-term consequences in their effort to stabilise and rebuild Afghanistan."

Pakistan's military denounced the claims in a statement as "yet another smear campaign maligning Pakistan armed forces and creating differences as well as misunderstanding amongst the coalition partners."



This is probably the most accurate assessment:

Originally posted by: tvarad
Pakistanis are worried that Afghans are actually growing a backbone.

 

Robor

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Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: brandonbull
Mission Accomplished?

Six days. Six weeks. Doubtful six months.

Winning hearts and minds.

Greeted as liberators.

Last throes of the insurgency.
 

palehorse

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Dec 21, 2005
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Heavily armed local tribesmen brandishing rocket launchers and Kalashnikov rifles gathered near the checkpost in the mountainous Gora Prai area to show their support after the attack, residents said.
We call those "The Taliban"... and it's VERY interesting that they would show up in support of their Pakistani comrades.

The post was in an area that has long been disputed between the two countries.
imagine that...

Pakistani troops repulsed the Afghan soldiers and the coalition then bombed the area. Coalition aircraft also killed around 15 Taliban militants about a kilometre (half a mile) away, the officials said.
coincidence?

Pakistan has protested over a series of missile strikes attributed to US-led forces in Afghanistan in recent months, including one in the tribal region of Bajaur in May that killed more than a dozen people.
...otherwise known as "Taliban and Taliban supporters."

Several Pakistani soldiers have also been killed by stray shells but it appears to be the first time that any have been killed by a targeted air strike by US forces.
so what were they doing near Taliban or AQ targets? "stray shells" my ass.

Pakistan's new government, which ousted allies of President Pervez Musharraf in elections in February, has entered peace talks with pro-Taliban militants in the tribal belt, causing concerns among its Western allies.
Making peace with a declared enemy of the U.S., and then subsequently allowing them refuge on your lands, is a rather silly way to convince everyone that you're still committed to the GWOT, dont ya think?

The attack came two days after a US think tank said in a report that members of Pakistan's intelligence services and its paramilitaries were supporting Taliban insurgents.

The study by the RAND corporation, funded by the US Department of Defence, said that if Taliban bases in Pakistan were not eliminated, the forces supporting the government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai "will face crippling long-term consequences in their effort to stabilise and rebuild Afghanistan."
un-fucking-acceptable.

Something tells me that there's A LOT more to this story than TGB would have you believe...
 

Genx87

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Apr 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: The Green Bean

This is an act of war and NATO should be held fully responsible and accountable for it.
The Paks should declare war against NATO and launch a preemptive strike by ordering all their expatriates to shutter their Quikie Marts.

lmao
 

EagleKeeper

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Two other interesting items in the sentence
Heavily armed local tribesmen brandishing rocket launchers and Kalashnikov rifles gathered near the checkpost in the mountainous Gora Prai area to show their support after the attack, residents said.

Rocket launchers have one purpose only - to launch against vehicles.
Displaying them off can easily lead to misinterpration of intentions or validation of previous theories.

The post was in an area that has long been disputed between the two countries.

Pakistani troops repulsed the Afghan soldiers and the coalition then bombed the area. Coalition aircraft also killed around 15 Taliban militants about a kilometre (half a mile) away, the officials said.

A spokesman for Pakistani Taliban militants, Maulvi Omar, said eight "mujahideen (holy warriors)" were killed in an air strike by coalition helicopters.

So you have a disputed area and military in the area. What might the chance that the Paks could have been Taliban? The Taliuban were very nearby and the Paks may have been cooperating with them
 

The Green Bean

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Originally posted by: palehorse
We call those "The Taliban"... and it's VERY interesting that they would show up in support of their Pakistani comrades.

That only shows your ignorance.

imagine that...

Yes it's been disputed since the British left or even before that.

coincidence?

We are now at peace with the militants in Pakistan. There has been a peace treaty signed. It's shameful for your country that even an unorganized group of militants are more loyal to treaties than your country is to its "allies."

[/quote]
so what were they doing near Taliban or AQ targets? "stray shells" my ass.[/quote]

It's our f***** country not yours!

Making peace with a declared enemy of the U.S., and then subsequently allowing them refuge on your lands, is a rather silly way to convince everyone that you're still committed to the GWOT, dont ya think?

At least we don't commit illegal cowardly acts of wars like the ones your country has been committing in the past 7 years. Why is the "GWOT" more important than the sovereignty of our country? It's not so f*** off.


 

The Green Bean

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Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
So you have a disputed area and military in the area. What might the chance that the Paks could have been Taliban? The Taliuban were very nearby and the Paks may have been cooperating with them

Even if it was the taliban you were going after you have no right to do it! It's our sovereign country and any strike on anyone without our permission is an act of war.
 

The Green Bean

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Jul 27, 2003
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: The Green Bean

This is an act of war and NATO should be held fully responsible and accountable for it.
The Paks should declare war against NATO and launch a preemptive strike by ordering all their expatriates to shutter their Quikie Marts.

Telling them to stop using our airspace is enough for now.
 

tvarad

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Jun 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
We are now at peace with the militants in Pakistan. There has been a peace treaty signed. It's shameful for your country that even an unorganized group of militants are more loyal to treaties than your country is to its "allies."

Make up your mind if it's Pakistani territory or the militant/Talibani territory (implied by Paks signing peace treaties). If you say it's militant territory than STFU and let the Afghans/coalition forces deal with the situation. If you say it's Pakistani territory than make sure it's not used to stage attacks on a neighboring sovereign state. That's considered an act of war.

At least we don't commit illegal cowardly acts of wars like the ones your country has been committing in the past 7 years. Why is the "GWOT" more important than the sovereignty of our country? It's not so f*** off.

If anyone has shown cowardly behavior throughout it's history, it's the Pakistanis. They started wars with India and turned tail when the heat was on as in 1965, 1971 and recently in Kargil. They cannot fight an open war, so they send proxies to Kashmir and Afghanistan to do their fighting for them. And no other country has p*mped itself so much to others like Pakistan has. So much for sovereignty.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Why is the "GWOT" more important than the sovereignty of our country? It's not so f*** off.
That's where you're very, very wrong.

You essentially have four choices: (1) destroy the known terrorists yourselves -- including the Taliban, (2) hand all of them over to NATO, (3) suck up your pride and allow/force NATO to come in and take care of the problem themselves, or (4) declare war on NATO and bring the fight.

If you choose to side with, or protect, known terrorists, then you must also be prepared to suffer the consequences of that poor decision.

So now, try to remain rational, and decide... what's it going to be? (1-4)

My guess is the status quo... #3.
 

DukeN

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Dec 12, 1999
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Sadly there was a similar incident some time into the Afghan conflict where four Canadian soldiers were killed in a similar strike.
 

ElFenix

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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
So you have a disputed area and military in the area. What might the chance that the Paks could have been Taliban? The Taliuban were very nearby and the Paks may have been cooperating with them

Even if it was the taliban you were going after you have no right to do it! It's our sovereign country and any strike on anyone without our permission is an act of war.

if you're signing peace treaties with them it's not really your country now is it?
 

EagleKeeper

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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
So you have a disputed area and military in the area. What might the chance that the Paks could have been Taliban? The Taliuban were very nearby and the Paks may have been cooperating with them

Even if it was the taliban you were going after you have no right to do it! It's our sovereign country and any strike on anyone without our permission is an act of war.

If the area is disputed (as acknowledged by the Pakistan release) then it is fair game.

Also, the US stated many years back, that sheltering the AQ would be justification for strikes against those who harbor them. That is why the Taliban are on the run.

If the Pakistanis are harboring the Taliban, then Pakistan may be considered either a target or suspect.

With the Taliban less than a km away for the Pakistan forces, is makes one wonder who is in bed with whom.

 

rudder

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Nov 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Even if it was the taliban you were going after you have no right to do it! It's our sovereign country and any strike on anyone without our permission is an act of war.

In 1998 Bill Clinton asked for permission to shoot some cruise missiles through Pakastani airspace. As soon as he go off the phone the Pakastani military was calling Osama Bin Laden and telling him cruise missiles were on the way.
 

ayabe

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Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
So you have a disputed area and military in the area. What might the chance that the Paks could have been Taliban? The Taliuban were very nearby and the Paks may have been cooperating with them

Even if it was the taliban you were going after you have no right to do it! It's our sovereign country and any strike on anyone without our permission is an act of war.

Then declare war already, that is if you can afford to fight one without our aid. Or maybe we'll just let the Indians steamroll you.

Fact:

It's not your sovereign territory when you have abandoned the area to bandits. The government of Pakistan has no presence there, other than some military/intelligence personnel helping your Talibros get across the border.

 

Woofmeister

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Jul 18, 2004
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For the benefit of the OP, just a little love note that since NATO and the U.S. are operating in Afghanistan pursuant to a U.N. Security Mandate under Security Council Resolution 1386 and Security Council Resolution 1510, there is no credible argument that either NATO or the U.S. specifically are in Afghanistan "illegally."

More important with regard to the subject of the OP, by allowing the Taliban and al-Qaeda to attack Afghanistan and U.N. Mandate forces from its purportedly sovereign territory, Pakistan is in violation of Security Council Resoution 1373, which provides in part:

all States shall:

?(a) Refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts, including by suppressing recruitment of members of terrorist groups and eliminating the supply of weapons to terrorists;

?(b) Take the necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist acts, including by provision of early warning to other States by exchange of information;

?(c) Deny safe haven to those who finance, plan, support, or commit terrorist acts, or provide safe havens;

?(d) Prevent those who finance, plan, facilitate or commit terrorist acts from using their respective territories for those purposes against other States or their citizens;

?(e) Ensure that any person who participates in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or in supporting terrorist acts is brought to justice and ensure that, in addition to any other measures against them, such terrorist acts are established as serious criminal offences in domestic laws and regulations and that the punishment duly reflects the seriousness of such terrorist acts;

?(f) Afford one another the greatest measure of assistance in connection with criminal investigations or criminal proceedings relating to the financing or support of terrorist acts, including assistance in obtaining evidence in their possession necessary for the proceedings;

?(g) Prevent the movement of terrorists or terrorist groups by effective border controls and controls on issuance of identity papers and travel documents, and through measures for preventing counterfeiting, forgery or fraudulent use of identity papers and travel documents;

And yes, all three resolutions are pursuant to Chapter VII of the U.N. Charter, i.e., the Chapter that provides authority for military force.

It makes no difference whether Obama or McCain becomes the next U.S. President, they've both indicated that Pakistan's little two-step with their Taliban and al-Qaeda proxies is going to come to an end.

Can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned.