Could it be that Nixon and Kissinger were brownosing the Chinese ass, and supported the murderous secular Pakistanis, because they were losing their grip in SE Asia (Vietnam)?
Doppel
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2011
- 13,306
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Total joke. Pakistan is barely a real country. If a country on the other side of the world doesn't give it money it will pull out of its own territory and yet feigns offense that that very same other country considers it so inept that they feel the need to launch a mission in its territory against a criminal under its noses for years.
Kadarin
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2001
- 44,296
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For the record, I didn't donate a damned thing to the Pakistan flood crisis. Mainly because I don't have any interest in helping Pakistan with anything.
busydude
Diamond Member
- Feb 5, 2010
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Yes, It was Pakistan who mediated between The US and China. It played a significant role.. which ultimately led to strengthening of US-China relations.
Originally Posted by iGas
Could it be that Nixon and Kissinger were brownosing the Chinese ass, and supported the murderous secular Pakistanis, because they were losing their grip in SE Asia (Vietnam)?
It sort of worked that way. But if you look at it through the cold war lens, Nixon wanted to play the China card against the USSR. But the latter two had already fallen out, so a lot of it was wasted effort. But I digress from the topic.
The U.S. has more than compensated Pakistan with billions of dollars for whatever help it got during the Cold War. The problem with Pakistan is that it has used most of this help to fight an imaginary religio-ideological battle with India and left very little for it's social development. It's leaders have no one else but themselves to blame for their predicament.
Could it be that Nixon and Kissinger were brownosing the Chinese ass, and supported the murderous secular Pakistanis, because they were losing their grip in SE Asia (Vietnam)?
It sort of worked that way. But if you look at it through the cold war lens, Nixon wanted to play the China card against the USSR. But the latter two had already fallen out, so a lot of it was wasted effort. But I digress from the topic.
The U.S. has more than compensated Pakistan with billions of dollars for whatever help it got during the Cold War. The problem with Pakistan is that it has used most of this help to fight an imaginary religio-ideological battle with India and left very little for it's social development. It's leaders have no one else but themselves to blame for their predicament.
We were living at peace with those tribesmen for 50 years. Then Bush comes out with an idiotic "either with us or without us" threat forcing us to choose. Musharraf probably thought it would be less damaging to side with the Americans and he was probably right. But now when America's bloodlust has been somewhat satisfied, we might as well have peace.
There have been no terrorist attacks in Pakistan since the expulsion of American trainers. I'd take peace over American alms any day.
I don't hate American's either. I hate our current leadership, but incompetence is a bigger issue than corruption. Last week, the ruling government abolished a 2001 bill that gave power to local "towns" within Karachi city and imposed a feudal era commisionirate system that gives power to to officials that weren't even elected for their local constituencies. Needless to say, things have been really tense. They also abolished a 2001 police bill in favour of an 1861 bill. WTF?
I also hate American foreign policy towards our region. It's almost as if they, not the people of Pakistan rule. Wikileaks have proved that ministers are not assigned without the consent of the American ambassador. WTF?
I also appreciate the work done by Americans for society in general. But why don't you let us live? Why must you impose your values and morals upon us?
What has America done for Pakistan
What has America done for Pakistan? Harris Bin Munawar
Inherent in that question are assumptions that need to be questioned themselves. Why should America do anything for Pakistan?
Osama bin Laden has been stolen, Raymond Davis exorcised, and the militarys ego has been hurt once again by men dressed like characters from Star Wars. America is an unreliable ally, the ISI chief is said to have told the Pakistani parliament in a closed-door briefing.
Pakistans ties with terrorists are strategic. Like al Qaeda, Pakistan refers to modern notions of national sovereignty and justice. Like Taliban, Pakistan is concerned less with the enemy and more with spies.
However, our ties with Washington are platonic. If reliability, trust and selflessness are the benchmarks, then the ISIs evaluation of US foreign policy towards Pakistan is essentially a moral critique.
What has America done for Pakistan? parliamentarians asked before calling for a review of ties with the US. Inherent in that question are assumptions that need to be questioned themselves. Why should America do anything for Pakistan?
Pakistan was born a weak state. Soon after independence, Pakistans founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah asked the US, in a letter sent with his emissary, for $2 billion in military and financial aid, including $170 million for the army, $75 million for the air force, $60 million for the navy, and $700 million each for industrial and agricultural development. He had made a cultural choice.
Pakistans first prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan visited US president Harry Truman in 1950 to sell the countrys geopolitical importance to the super power. Pakistans decision to seek US help against the perceived Soviet designs to reach the warm waters of the Arabian sea was purely strategic.
What the US did for Pakistan consequently produced the conditions that allowed a state that was not expected to last very long when it came into existence, to develop robust agriculture to feed itself, one of the worlds largest militaries and the ability to produce nuclear energy and weapons.
What has America done for Pakistans armed forces?
From 1954 to 1956, the US gave Pakistan about $1400 million in military aid, helping an ill-equipped Pakistan Army develop infrastructure, mobility and firepower, and improve command, control, communication and intelligence capabilities for its newly raised divisions. Also in 1954, Pakistan began to receive more than 100 Sabre F-86F aircraft that made the core of its air force. Armed with Sidewinder missiles, these fighter planes gave the Pakistani air force a decisive edge over the Indian one.
Pakistan had also received several hundred M47 and M48 Patton tanks and artillery equipment that gave it tangible superiority over India. By 1971, Pakistan had lost this edge. During the 1971 war, a carrier task force of Americas Seventh Fleet that included nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Enterprise, several destroyers and nuclear-powered attack submarine Gurnard arrived in the Bay of Bengal in support of Pakistan. But Pakistan Army surrendered a day later.
In the 1980s, after Pakistan rejected a $400 million aid package as peanuts, more than $6 billion flew into the country along with weapons that included about a thousand Stinger missiles, as it fought a perceived Soviet threat in Afghanistan and developed a strategic depth. Since 9/11 (blamed on the strategic assets that Pakistan developed in Afghanistan), we received more than $14 billion in military aid and reimbursements, 17 F-16 aircraft and artillery equipment despite substantial doubts on its commitment to the war on terror. Pakistan Navy received the PNS Alamgir frigate, boats, helicopters and two P-3C Orion surveillance and anti-submarine aircraft (with six in the pipeline) and assigned a key role in the Arabian Sea.
What has America done for Pakistans nuclear program?
Pakistans civil nuclear quest began with the American Atoms for Peace program. It was offered $350,000 to acquire a nuclear reactor in 1955. In 1965, years after scientists Dr Abdus Salam and Dr Ishrat Hussain Usmani traveled to the US, America gave Pakistan its first nuclear reactor. The reactor at Nilore near Islamabad was built by American nuclear engineer Peter Karter and supplied by contractors American Machine and Foundry.
It was only after Pakistan started to develop nuclear weapons that the US imposed sanctions on the country. American concerns of Pakistans role in nuclear proliferation eventually turned out to be true.
What has America done for Pakistans economy?
Pakistans major existential concern in its early years was that all its rivers came from India, and India could block them to cause famines in Pakistan. After negotiations between India and Pakistan failed, America intervened. With input from US public officials, the World Bank spent six years in talks with India and Pakistan to broker the Indus Water Treaty in 1960. After that, the US and the World Bank were major donors to Pakistans irrigation system, that included two large dams (Mangla Dam on Jhelum River and Tarbela Dam on Indus River) that added significantly to Pakistan electricity production, and a number of barrages and headworks (Sidhnai Ravi River, Rasul on Jhelum River, Qadirabad and Marala on Chenab and Chashma on Indus).
In the 1970s, American renaissance man Roger Revelle supervised the Salinity Control and Reclamation Program, American agricultural engineers worked with small-town machine shops in Pakistan to help them develop cheap local land-leveling equipment, and USAIDs agriculture chief Richard Newberg developed a fertiliser production and import policy for Pakistan convincing Washington to supply $100 million worth of fertiliser and invest in the Fauji Fertiliser plant.
American scientist Norman Borlaug, with his new varieties of high-yield seed, oversaw the Green Revolution in Pakistan. He received a Nobel Prize in 1970. By 1977, Pakistans production of wheat and other food grains had more than doubled and it became self-sufficient in food production. Decades later, Pakistans economy still depends on agriculture.
After the failure of its first five-year plan, Pakistan set up a Planning Commission in 1958. The second five-year plan encouraged private enterprise in areas where profits could be made, and government expenditure in less developed areas. It surpassed its goals and Pakistan became a model of industrial and economic development in what is known as the third world (for example South Korea modeled its capital Seoul after Karachi), mainly due to American input and financial aid.
After 9/11 when Pakistan decided to join the war on terror, the US helped rescheduled loans of more than $12 billion with members of the Paris Club, allowed duty-free import of hundreds of Pakistani products, and gave Pakistan the biggest economic assistance program since the cold war.
The impact of thousands of Pakistani students, researchers and professionals who were sent on scholarships to universities in the US cannot be measured in financial terms.
And in that manner of argument, it might be appropriate in the end to ask a question that has not been asked so far. What has Pakistan done for the US? What has Pakistan done for the US if reliability, trust and selflessness are the benchmarks?
The author is a media and culture critic and a news editor at The Friday Times.
Nebor
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2003
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Nebor
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2003
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Uh, he also bought a computer that is more than the yearly income of the average Pakistani, has high speed internet at his home, and regularly talks about buying things that Americans would buy (games on the Steam summer sale for example.) I'd bet dollars to donuts he's on the receiving end of some US aid, since he's in the tippy top income bracket of Pakistan.
busydude
Diamond Member
- Feb 5, 2010
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Don't be delusional, people of Pakistan never ruled - It was mostly military.. who ruled your country.
The world has seen what has happened if they let Pakistan do it's thing. It is a matter of global security.. that the world is worried about. Do you think anyone gives a shit about what happens inside other countries; people start looking at other countries if they sense a threat to them personally. Why did the world go berserk after India and Pakistan started developing and testing nuclear weapons?
He says he earns about $3 million a year. Probably in the top 0.1% of population if that is true.
busydude
Diamond Member
- Feb 5, 2010
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What are your values personally?
What faction of Islam are you part of? Wahhabi? Sufi? Shia? Sunni? Muslim of Indian origin or Arab origin?
No.
Also, the military is more democratic than the dynastic democracy here. Same thing in India. Rahul will become the next Congress chairman just because he is the son of Sonia.
Just like Saddam's WMDs were a threat to everyone's personal security.
...and your point is?
That's of little significance, Islam has shared basic values. Freedom in New York and California may be interpreted in different ways--gay marriage is considered "freedom" in some states and not in others. Yet they share the basic value of freedom.
Some of the Islamic values mentioned in the Quran are:
Equality
Justice
Humility
Forgiveness
Piety
busydude
Diamond Member
- Feb 5, 2010
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It is all fine and dandy, but what is the reality? I also can go on and on.. saying how the religion I was born into is great and all that, but what is happening today in the world is totally different.
I will say it time and again; religion may be relevant a few centuries ago, it is not anymore. Religion is the #1 reason for the world's backwardness. Religion did not help create vaccines for polio. I firmly believe that the world would be a much better and happier place without religion.
There is no point.
I was, and still am, against the war in Iraq.
- Oct 30, 2000
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True; yet you went on this board asking for money for your country after the floods.
While it may not benefit your personally; the attitude is there. Come to the US when you cannot do it yourself, otherwise to hell with the US. (but we will still take your aid).
- Oct 30, 2000
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Those values are words only depending on how they are applied.
Muslim men and woman are not considered equals.
The same with justice. When women are punished for being raped that is not justice.
busydude
Diamond Member
- Feb 5, 2010
- 8,793
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Hmm.. :hmm: I think you will be at loss.. as they the biggest charity providers. Oh.. and Bill Gates is helping eliminate polio in Afghanistan and Indian Subcontinent.. he is American BTW.
Nebor
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2003
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That might be true, but I doubt it. Moreover, my point wasn't that you were begging for American money, but that you were receiving US Aid somehow. And I know that you people are more than happy to deceive and trick your way into our money. You think it makes you smarter than us. When you see someone driving a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S in Kabul, or a Range Rover Supercharged in Islamabad, you can pretty much guarantee they're crooked as hell. They're driving a car that costs more than people in their country should make in a lifetime.
Now if only half of the countries in your region actually followed those ideas. That'll be the day.
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