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US seeks ways to punish Moscow

R

RichardE

Banned
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/.../georgia.us/index.html

"It is not business as usual anymore with the Russians, and there are consequences for doing what they are doing," one senior U.S. official said.

Two senior administration officials said Tuesday that they could not speak for attribution because no final decisions had been made. But the United States will be discussing steps to take with its allies in the NATO alliance and the European Union, they said.

The United States boycotted preparatory meetings Tuesday for a NATO meeting with Russia, and NATO has canceled a naval exercise with Russian forces in the northern Pacific.

Washington and its allies also are discussing whether to drop Moscow from the Group of Eight industrialized economic powers, the official said.....
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Continued at link.

I personally think they are pushing this too hard, yeah they made a mistake opening there mouth in the first place, but if this backfires it will make the US look even worse. Sort of like that kid who keeps pushing even when he should have stopped already. The US *needs* Russia on there side in regards to the ME right now.



Oh, and to continue on with the "wow did he say that?" kick lately

President Bush said Monday that Russia's actions "substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world"
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The world looks at the American occupation of Iraq. Then they look at Afghanistan. Then Bush looks at their collective middle finger.

The more America makes this out to be, the worse off it'll come off looking.
 
If US and NATO really believe that what Russia did was wrong, why didn't they do anything to stop it and are instead resorting to totally pathetic and meaningless revanchist gestures like not inviting Russia to meetings or not attending Russian meetings.
This just makes US and NATO look petty and impotent. Russia wants that.
 
Originally posted by: Dari
The world looks at the American occupation of Iraq. Then they look at Afghanistan. Then Bush looks at looks at their collective middle finger.

The more America makes this out to be, the worse off it'll come off looking.
Click to expand...

Mmhmm.
 
Originally posted by: Dari
The world looks at the American occupation of Iraq. Then they look at Afghanistan. Then Bush looks at looks at their collective middle finger.

The more America makes this out to be, the worse off it'll come off looking.
Click to expand...

Then throw in how Israel gets to run rough shod in ME and constantly gets a US green light for whatever they do.
 
Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Maybe he should have looked into his beady sneaky little KGB eyes instead.
Click to expand...

Apparently KGB training allows you to keep people from seeing the dark, evil parts of your soul you want to keep to yourself for surprises like this. 😛
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
If US and NATO really believe that what Russia did was wrong, why didn't they do anything to stop it and are instead resorting to totally pathetic and meaningless revanchist gestures like not inviting Russia to meetings or not attending Russian meetings.
This just makes US and NATO look petty and impotent. Russia wants that.
Click to expand...
Do something like what? If you see some cops beating somebody and you think it's wrong, what are you going to do?
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
If US and NATO really believe that what Russia did was wrong, why didn't they do anything to stop it and are instead resorting to totally pathetic and meaningless revanchist gestures like not inviting Russia to meetings or not attending Russian meetings.
This just makes US and NATO look petty and impotent. Russia wants that.
Click to expand...

Russia wants the best of both worlds. The want to be seen as a relevant world power at the big diplomacy/economics tables yet bee free to threaten their neighbors with military force to extract favorable agreements.

Russia isn't even a WTO member yet and they've been working on it for a while and had been expected to be admitted relatively soon. The Brits are now basically saying no way and the US has been angling to get them thrown out of the G8. If Putin is banking on uses of force to achieve his respect (or fear really) there is only a couple more places he can play that card and each is inherently riskier.

The US and NATO did nothing militarily because getting into a shooting war with the Russians over a non allied nation isn't going to happen. If Putin were to put NATO into a corner by attacking a member state it could be assured that there would be a strong military response....then again I'm not sure the Russians are so eager to see German tanks rolling across their western frontier again.
 
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: senseamp
If US and NATO really believe that what Russia did was wrong, why didn't they do anything to stop it and are instead resorting to totally pathetic and meaningless revanchist gestures like not inviting Russia to meetings or not attending Russian meetings.
This just makes US and NATO look petty and impotent. Russia wants that.
Click to expand...

Russia wants the best of both worlds. The want to be seen as a relevant world power at the big diplomacy/economics tables yet bee free to threaten their neighbors with military force to extract favorable agreements.
Click to expand...
The two go hand in hand. Military force is just expansion of diplomacy. Georgia got what was coming to it for attacking South Ossetia.
Russia isn't even a WTO member yet and they've been working on it for a while and had been expected to be admitted relatively soon. The Brits are now basically saying no way and the US has been angling to get them thrown out of the G8. If Putin is banking on uses of force to achieve his respect (or fear really) there is only a couple more places he can play that card and each is inherently riskier.
Click to expand...
Russian economy is doing fine without WTO, and it was doing crappy during the 90s when Russia was part of G8. Other countries need Russia in WTO more than Russia needs to be in it. Russian main exports are natural resources, where WTO is completely useless. Russian imports are consumer goods, and Russian protectionism could really hurt European and American companies who are counting on Russia for expansion.
The US and NATO did nothing militarily because getting into a shooting war with the Russians over a non allied nation isn't going to happen. If Putin were to put NATO into a corner by attacking a member state it could be assured that there would be a strong military response....then again I'm not sure the Russians are so eager to see German tanks rolling across their western frontier again.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be so sure. Let's just say it hasn't been tested. I would not be aggravating Russia and counting on NATO if I was one of the Baltic states. NATO can't even handle Afghanistan.

 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: senseamp
If US and NATO really believe that what Russia did was wrong, why didn't they do anything to stop it and are instead resorting to totally pathetic and meaningless revanchist gestures like not inviting Russia to meetings or not attending Russian meetings.
This just makes US and NATO look petty and impotent. Russia wants that.
Click to expand...
Do something like what? If you see some cops beating somebody and you think it's wrong, what are you going to do?
Click to expand...

But that's the whole point. NATO can do nothing. Russia wants to demonstrate that to its neighbors. This ranting and raving by NATO after the fact only helps Russia.
 
NATO is handling afghanistan just fine. They arent allowed to deal with the real issue and the source of any issues within Afghanistan and that is Pakistan.

Russia wont attack a neighbor that can fight back. Doesnt even sound like their army performed all that well against the mighty georgians. How many tanks and airplanes got knocked out by that elite force of 17,000?

 
Originally posted by: Genx87
NATO is handling afghanistan just fine. They arent allowed to deal with the real issue and the source of any issues within Afghanistan and that is Pakistan.

Russia wont attack a neighbor that can fight back. Doesnt even sound like their army performed all that well against the mighty georgians. How many tanks and airplanes got knocked out by that elite force of 17,000?
Click to expand...

I don't know, a handful?
The point is Russia can take the losses, politically, without flinching. What's the political resolve of NATO states to go fighting with Russia for let's say, Lithuania.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
NATO is handling afghanistan just fine. They arent allowed to deal with the real issue and the source of any issues within Afghanistan and that is Pakistan.

Russia wont attack a neighbor that can fight back. Doesnt even sound like their army performed all that well against the mighty georgians. How many tanks and airplanes got knocked out by that elite force of 17,000?
Click to expand...

The bolded part is doubtful.

As for the second paragraph, Russia just set an example for the rest. It may not look pretty like "Shock and Awe" but their bullets and bombs still do massive damage. Hell, there are no "smart bombs" in their arsenal so it's much worse.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
NATO is handling afghanistan just fine. They arent allowed to deal with the real issue and the source of any issues within Afghanistan and that is Pakistan.

Russia wont attack a neighbor that can fight back. Doesnt even sound like their army performed all that well against the mighty georgians. How many tanks and airplanes got knocked out by that elite force of 17,000?
Click to expand...

I don't know, a handful?
The point is Russia can take the losses, politically, without flinching. What's the political resolve of NATO states to go fighting with Russia for let's say, Lithuania.
Click to expand...

I have no idea. But I can gurantee you it will be more than a few tanks when they do react.
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/.../georgia.us/index.html

"It is not business as usual anymore with the Russians, and there are consequences for doing what they are doing," one senior U.S. official said.

Two senior administration officials said Tuesday that they could not speak for attribution because no final decisions had been made. But the United States will be discussing steps to take with its allies in the NATO alliance and the European Union, they said.

The United States boycotted preparatory meetings Tuesday for a NATO meeting with Russia, and NATO has canceled a naval exercise with Russian forces in the northern Pacific.

Washington and its allies also are discussing whether to drop Moscow from the Group of Eight industrialized economic powers, the official said.....
Click to expand...

Continued at link.

I personally think they are pushing this too hard, yeah they made a mistake opening there mouth in the first place, but if this backfires it will make the US look even worse. Sort of like that kid who keeps pushing even when he should have stopped already. The US *needs* Russia on there side in regards to the ME right now.



Oh, and to continue on with the "wow did he say that?" kick lately

President Bush said Monday that Russia's actions "substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world"
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

What "business" does the U.S. have with Russia anyway?

America exports nothing and buys everything from China.

Russia buys everything from China too, that's where they do "business".
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: senseamp
If US and NATO really believe that what Russia did was wrong, why didn't they do anything to stop it and are instead resorting to totally pathetic and meaningless revanchist gestures like not inviting Russia to meetings or not attending Russian meetings.
This just makes US and NATO look petty and impotent. Russia wants that.
Click to expand...

Russia wants the best of both worlds. The want to be seen as a relevant world power at the big diplomacy/economics tables yet bee free to threaten their neighbors with military force to extract favorable agreements.
Click to expand...
The two go hand in hand. Military force is just expansion of diplomacy. Georgia got what was coming to it for attacking South Ossetia.
Russia isn't even a WTO member yet and they've been working on it for a while and had been expected to be admitted relatively soon. The Brits are now basically saying no way and the US has been angling to get them thrown out of the G8. If Putin is banking on uses of force to achieve his respect (or fear really) there is only a couple more places he can play that card and each is inherently riskier.
Click to expand...
Russian economy is doing fine without WTO, and it was doing crappy during the 90s when Russia was part of G8. Other countries need Russia in WTO more than Russia needs to be in it. Russian main exports are natural resources, where WTO is completely useless. Russian imports are consumer goods, and Russian protectionism could really hurt European and American companies who are counting on Russia for expansion.
The US and NATO did nothing militarily because getting into a shooting war with the Russians over a non allied nation isn't going to happen. If Putin were to put NATO into a corner by attacking a member state it could be assured that there would be a strong military response....then again I'm not sure the Russians are so eager to see German tanks rolling across their western frontier again.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be so sure. Let's just say it hasn't been tested. I would not be aggravating Russia and counting on NATO if I was one of the Baltic states. NATO can't even handle Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

My points still stand. These are matters of international pride to Russia to be seen as an equal with the US/EU which are important to them. Granted they surely expected some push back after the events in Georgia but depending which way the election goes here it could last a lot longer than they expected.

Testing NATO Article 5 by actually taking military action against a member country would be totally insane. Even the Soviets weren't nuts enough to roll those dice. There are a lot of conventional forces left around Europe and the US Navy (in particular) and Air Force aren't doing a whole lot in the ME.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
NATO is handling afghanistan just fine. They arent allowed to deal with the real issue and the source of any issues within Afghanistan and that is Pakistan.

Russia wont attack a neighbor that can fight back. Doesnt even sound like their army performed all that well against the mighty georgians. How many tanks and airplanes got knocked out by that elite force of 17,000?
Click to expand...

I don't know, a handful?
The point is Russia can take the losses, politically, without flinching. What's the political resolve of NATO states to go fighting with Russia for let's say, Lithuania.
Click to expand...

Reports were 50 tanks and 5-10 planes. Nothing confirmed as far as I know but 50 tanks is more than a "handful" if you ask me.
 
At least the Russians are taking the high road in Afghanistan and Iraq. As they watch from a distance and see GWB get his comeuppance.

We are damn lucky that Putin is not like our Ronald Reagan, willing to arm terrorists, strike that freedom fighters, to make sure the other side really gets their comeuppance.

Apparently Russia watched and learned the lesson we still have not, when you arm freedom fighters, they are still terrorists, and as soon as you quit arming them, they are as like as not to bite the hand that used to feed them.

When Russia goes for an occupation, they don't try to do it on the cheap.
 
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
NATO is handling afghanistan just fine. They arent allowed to deal with the real issue and the source of any issues within Afghanistan and that is Pakistan.

Russia wont attack a neighbor that can fight back. Doesnt even sound like their army performed all that well against the mighty georgians. How many tanks and airplanes got knocked out by that elite force of 17,000?
Click to expand...

I don't know, a handful?
The point is Russia can take the losses, politically, without flinching. What's the political resolve of NATO states to go fighting with Russia for let's say, Lithuania.
Click to expand...

Reports were 50 tanks and 5-10 planes. Nothing confirmed as far as I know but 50 tanks is more than a "handful" if you ask me.
Click to expand...

Georgian reports. About as accurate as their reports of "ceasefire"
Also, some of those are likely Ossetian military's weapons and not Russian Army.
 
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Genx87
NATO is handling afghanistan just fine. They arent allowed to deal with the real issue and the source of any issues within Afghanistan and that is Pakistan.

Russia wont attack a neighbor that can fight back. Doesnt even sound like their army performed all that well against the mighty georgians. How many tanks and airplanes got knocked out by that elite force of 17,000?
Click to expand...

I don't know, a handful?
The point is Russia can take the losses, politically, without flinching. What's the political resolve of NATO states to go fighting with Russia for let's say, Lithuania.
Click to expand...

Reports were 50 tanks and 5-10 planes. Nothing confirmed as far as I know but 50 tanks is more than a "handful" if you ask me.
Click to expand...

You trust those dumb ass Georgian's to report this acurately?
 
It's a shame Georgia wasn't a full NATO member yet. Would be interesting to see if there was anything left in the paper tiger. As of late it seems mainly those recently joined countries that lived under soviet control that are willing to send troops and support for the various actions going on.
 
Originally posted by: K1052
Testing NATO Article 5 by actually taking military action against a member country would be totally insane. Even the Soviets weren't nuts enough to roll those dice. There are a lot of conventional forces left around Europe and the US Navy (in particular) and Air Force aren't doing a whole lot in the ME.
Click to expand...

NATO was not nuts enough to expand to Russian borders then either.
Ukraine will probably be the test, if things proceed as they do now. I don't think Russia will let the Crimea become part of NATO.

 
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