US Plans Spring Offensive in Afghanistan and Pakistan

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
IF IT'S WAR THEY WANT IT'S WAR THEY'LL GET!

I'm not being sarcastic here. We really should do this. We have verified information that this region is a fortress of the enemy, probably containg Al Qaedas top leadership and they are using it to launch operations in Afghanistan and around the world.

Never leave a threat like that unaddressed. We should have followed them there when we drove them out of Afghanistan.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
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76
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
from Reuters.com


It's about damn time. We should have done this two years ago, instead of allowing the enemy to set up shop in the Pakistan border region.

Well, while I do believe we need to go in and get al-queda, there is quite a problem with Pakistan. They are a nuclear power and they do not have the most stable government. There have been many articles citing questionable protection of their nuclear program.(especially information on contruction of the weapons) All you need is one extremist group, not even Al-qaeda, to gain control of the military and suddenly we're all in trouble :(
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Pakistan buys in. When Al-Qaida related groups tried to off President Mush, he had a change of heart.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
IF IT'S WAR THEY WANT IT'S WAR THEY'LL GET!

I'm not being sarcastic here. We really should do this. We have verified information that this region is a fortress of the enemy, probably containg Al Qaedas top leadership and they are using it to launch operations in Afghanistan and around the world.

Never leave a threat like that unaddressed. We should have followed them there when we drove them out of Afghanistan.
We couldn't, Pakistan would not allow us to send troops into their country. It's only recently, after two assianation attempts on Mushaaraf, that they have relented and will allow U.S. troops to conduct regular operations/offensives in Pakistan.

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Pakistan buys in. When Al-Qaida related groups tried to off President Mush, he had a change of heart.

While this may be true, I missed where it was proven to be Al-Queda (qaida whatever). Could you point me at a link where this was found to be the case?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Sorry Winston, should have been more clear than "Al-Qaida related groups"

Groups with ties to Al-Qaida would be a better way to say it.

Edit: Time.com story

The two groups certainly know each other. Throughout the 1990s, before marching off to fight the Indians in Kashmir, Jaish-e-Muhammad militants crossed into Afghanistan to attend al-Qaeda training camps. Pakistan's intelligence services looked the other way. Officials in Pakistan say that these days Jaish-e-Muhammad activists give shelter to al-Qaeda militants and that al-Qaeda provides funding and guidance to Jaish-e-Muhammad, perhaps contracting the group out for killings.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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Wasn't there something out not-too-recently about some guys in the CIA and NSA being absolutely convinced that certain members of Pakistan's Intelligence community were actively helping and protecting Osama and his supporters up in the mountains?
Anyone else hear/read something to that effect?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Sorry Winston, should have been more clear than "Al-Qaida related groups"

Groups with ties to Al-Qaida would be a better way to say it.

Edit: Time.com story

The two groups certainly know each other. Throughout the 1990s, before marching off to fight the Indians in Kashmir, Jaish-e-Muhammad militants crossed into Afghanistan to attend al-Qaeda training camps. Pakistan's intelligence services looked the other way. Officials in Pakistan say that these days Jaish-e-Muhammad activists give shelter to al-Qaeda militants and that al-Qaeda provides funding and guidance to Jaish-e-Muhammad, perhaps contracting the group out for killings.

Thanks for the link. I know he is not popular with Osama et al, but also there are those who would like to off him for Kashmir. I have been wondering "who dunnit"
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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No, not this spring. This mission is likely to be a fiasco because it is very difficult for us to operate in that part of the world. So, in an election year, do we undertake a mission that is high risk with little possibility of gain. On the other hand, rally 'round me boys, we're fighting.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,905
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
IF IT'S WAR THEY WANT IT'S WAR THEY'LL GET!

I'm not being sarcastic here. We really should do this. We have verified information that this region is a fortress of the enemy, probably containg Al Qaedas top leadership and they are using it to launch operations in Afghanistan and around the world.

Never leave a threat like that unaddressed. We should have followed them there when we drove them out of Afghanistan.
And you think I was?

However I don't think I am God, or if I do I certainly seem to hold a different opinion of who He is than you, because I don't quite have what I would term the arrogance to assume I have either the full faculties always to either know what is a threat or when I have a right just to step on other countries' sovereignty at my whim.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
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Originally posted by: Whitling
No, not this spring. This mission is likely to be a fiasco because it is very difficult for us to operate in that part of the world. So, in an election year, do we undertake a mission that is high risk with little possibility of gain. On the other hand, rally 'round me boys, we're fighting.

It appears it would not matter. Folks like yourself are going to complain no matter what.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Charrison, complain about killing other people at our whim and on a contrived set of facts. You can bet your bippy I'll complain.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Charrison, complain about killing other people at our whim and on a contrived set of facts. You can bet your bippy I'll complain.
Contrived set of facts? Have you gone off the deep end, or are you confusing your former middle-eastern dictatorships with one another?

 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Thanks for the link. I know he is not popular with Osama et al, but also there are those who would like to off him for Kashmir. I have been wondering "who dunnit"

WinstonSmith, if you are suggesting India is behind it, you couldn't be further from the truth. India is now dealing with Musharraf, who was very widely despised for planning the Kargil War, simply because the alternative is far worse. Just as the US has a vested interest in seeing Musharraf alive, India too would rather deal with a guy who seems semi-rational occasionally than with fundamentalist mullahs. If you are talking about the Kashmiri militants, you could be on to something. But then again, they are not too far from Al Qaida idealogically and they are indeed trained at their camps in the region. Very few indigenious Kashmiris are still involved in what they genuinely believe to be a freedom struggle. They wouldn't have the resources to make these kinds of attacks on him.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Ah, the famous Alchemize. "Contrived set of facts?" Al, how are those weapons of mass destruction. Second, are you asserting that there was a meaningful connection between Saddam and Osama? Yeah, contrived facts!


BTW, "bippy" is a term used on the Rowan and Martin show, Laugh In. A one hour show. Probably the most famous person you'd recognize is Goldy Hawn.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Ah, the famous Alchemize. "Contrived set of facts?" Al, how are those weapons of mass destruction. Second, are you asserting that there was a meaningful connection between Saddam and Osama? Yeah, contrived facts!
My elderly friend, please scroll up to the top of the post that describes the countries we are talking about.

Hint, they start with "A" and "P", not "I".

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Thanks for the link. I know he is not popular with Osama et al, but also there are those who would like to off him for Kashmir. I have been wondering "who dunnit"

WinstonSmith, if you are suggesting India is behind it, you couldn't be further from the truth. India is now dealing with Musharraf, who was very widely despised for planning the Kargil War, simply because the alternative is far worse. Just as the US has a vested interest in seeing Musharraf alive, India too would rather deal with a guy who seems semi-rational occasionally than with fundamentalist mullahs. If you are talking about the Kashmiri militants, you could be on to something. But then again, they are not too far from Al Qaida idealogically and they are indeed trained at their camps in the region. Very few indigenious Kashmiris are still involved in what they genuinely believe to be a freedom struggle. They wouldn't have the resources to make these kinds of attacks on him.


Actually, I wasnt suggesting India was behind anything. If so, I would have said it. What I believe is that there may be some good will on both Pakistan and Indias part to reduce tensions. Unfortunately this can lead to forces on either side attempting to stir up the pot, so to speak. They could be forces in Pakistan or India, but not govt. supported.

Extremists attack both their opposition and those who are percieved as disloyal to their cause. That does not mean that Al Qaida is behind any of this. Could it be? Of course, but I dislike jumping to conclusions without accounting for other possibilites.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
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Originally posted by: kage69
Wasn't there something out not-too-recently about some guys in the CIA and NSA being absolutely convinced that certain members of Pakistan's Intelligence community were actively helping and protecting Osama and his supporters up in the mountains?
Anyone else hear/read something to that effect?

When Clinton had the military fire some cruise missiles at osama they had to notify Pakistan and ask them permission since the missiles would be going through Pakastani airspace. It is widely known that because of that phone call, osama knew the cruise missiles were on the way and he had plenty of time to clear the area.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Yes, Al, but A and P. Yes, I suppose "contrived facts" is a bit of a red herring on my part.

Let's start with Afghanistan. Outside of making 30 years of policy mistakes, we haven't done badly there. Of course, it's the same pit that it was before we invaded it. But now it's our pit. With respect to Afghanistan, unless we're willing to take the time and resources to make some fundamental changes in the country -- and I assure you, we are not so prepared -- we're just spitting in the wind. There will be no meaningful change in Afghanistan unless you consider replacing warlord B with warlord C a significant change.

With respect to Pakistan, now there's a place where we can really do some damage. This is an extremely unstable country hanging on to a semblence of "democracy" by its fingers. We've managed to piss off the entire Muslim world in general -- so now we're going to operate in Pakistan and piss them off in particular. It might happen, Mushareff has little control of the outlying districts. I could envision some type of bargain where we go in and kick over the bees nest for him. But, to what end?

Seriously, Al. Look at the invasion of A and the invasion of I. The took literally months of preparation to mount. Ok, this is supposed to be a "spring" offensive. This is almost February. We'd have to start now. There is no way we can set up this kind of opperation without alerting us and them. It ain't gonna happen in spring.

By the way, I wish I could look up who posted that original nonsense about "major terrorist attack in U.S. before mid-February.

In the old testament, the were to beat their swords into plowshares. We beat ours into trumpets. The news industry needed a story.
 

athithi

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2002
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: athithi
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Thanks for the link. I know he is not popular with Osama et al, but also there are those who would like to off him for Kashmir. I have been wondering "who dunnit"

WinstonSmith, if you are suggesting India is behind it, you couldn't be further from the truth. India is now dealing with Musharraf, who was very widely despised for planning the Kargil War, simply because the alternative is far worse. Just as the US has a vested interest in seeing Musharraf alive, India too would rather deal with a guy who seems semi-rational occasionally than with fundamentalist mullahs. If you are talking about the Kashmiri militants, you could be on to something. But then again, they are not too far from Al Qaida idealogically and they are indeed trained at their camps in the region. Very few indigenious Kashmiris are still involved in what they genuinely believe to be a freedom struggle. They wouldn't have the resources to make these kinds of attacks on him.


Actually, I wasnt suggesting India was behind anything. If so, I would have said it. What I believe is that there may be some good will on both Pakistan and Indias part to reduce tensions. Unfortunately this can lead to forces on either side attempting to stir up the pot, so to speak. They could be forces in Pakistan or India, but not govt. supported.

Extremists attack both their opposition and those who are percieved as disloyal to their cause. That does not mean that Al Qaida is behind any of this. Could it be? Of course, but I dislike jumping to conclusions without accounting for other possibilites.

Whatever extremist activity happens across the border (outside of Kashmir) in either nation cannot happen without the involvement of the Governments or their respective intelligence agencies. While I can imagine RAW (Research and Analysis Wing, kind of like CIA in India) has spies inside Pakistan and possibly mischief-makers, there is virtually no comparision between the agents of a fundamentalist, military dictatorship and those of the world's largest democracy. The former are terrorists in and of themselves while the latter have some amount of legitimacy as a Government operation. Also, Indian extremists are usually Indian citizens whereas the extremists traipsing in from across the border are backed by the larger fundamentalist Islamic diaspora.

While Hindu fundamentalism is despicable, it is still nowhere near the problem that Islamic fundamentalism is. Therefore, if you are suggesting that Indian extremists might be behind the assassination attempts, again, I would disagree.

EDIT: Not trying to give you a hard time or something....just thought I'd add my 2 cents to the discussion :)