US killed Uday, Qusay to cover up past dealings

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Tripleshot

Originally posted by: LunarRay
As I've said in other threads the killing of the two sons could and should have been avoided. We could have used some form of non lethal submission technique. We would have enabled the world to fully invest in the human rights trials and the intel coup of Iraq. For them to have been killed with little effort to stave off the gun battle I wonder why. I don't think it was to cover up secret dealings with Iraq. Most folks already know about the US and other "Western" and "Eastern" nations supplying the Iraqi government preceeding the Iranian hostage crisis time. In as much as I've no idea why they ought to have killed them when waiting them out would have kept the US soldiers from being injured and would have perhaps shown the Iraqi in the street that even now the US seeks to end bloodshed I defer to you folks who love blood and guts to opine... won't change anything... just lets the Pattonites vent...

It was my understanding at the time this went on that the troops did not know if the pig-latin brothers had a secret tunnel to escape from. Capture would have been preferable, but to me it is completely understandable to fire back when automatic weaponfire is coming at you from inside that building. Why is this so difficult for you armchair critics of military tactics to comprehend? This is a done deal, the bastards are buried in their home town and the stooly is paid off with 30 million US dollars.

lets move on to getting that Ratbastard Saddam now.

Word I got was that the guy that turned them in owned the house. He sure as hell would have known about any secret tunnels.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Tripleshot

Originally posted by: LunarRay
As I've said in other threads the killing of the two sons could and should have been avoided. We could have used some form of non lethal submission technique. We would have enabled the world to fully invest in the human rights trials and the intel coup of Iraq. For them to have been killed with little effort to stave off the gun battle I wonder why. I don't think it was to cover up secret dealings with Iraq. Most folks already know about the US and other "Western" and "Eastern" nations supplying the Iraqi government preceeding the Iranian hostage crisis time. In as much as I've no idea why they ought to have killed them when waiting them out would have kept the US soldiers from being injured and would have perhaps shown the Iraqi in the street that even now the US seeks to end bloodshed I defer to you folks who love blood and guts to opine... won't change anything... just lets the Pattonites vent...

It was my understanding at the time this went on that the troops did not know if the pig-latin brothers had a secret tunnel to escape from. Capture would have been preferable, but to me it is completely understandable to fire back when automatic weaponfire is coming at you from inside that building. Why is this so difficult for you armchair critics of military tactics to comprehend? This is a done deal, the bastards are buried in their home town and the stooly is paid off with 30 million US dollars.

lets move on to getting that Ratbastard Saddam now.

Word I got was that the guy that turned them in owned the house. He sure as hell would have known about any secret tunnels.

Then if that is true we probably knew what kind of weapons and all they had and the structural integrity of the building and lots of stuff.
Guess we may could have not killed them.. but, then we just sit in arm chairs and imagine stuff up and all.

 

[Tripleshot]

Word I got was that the guy that turned them in owned the house. He sure as hell would have known about any secret tunnels.

That is true, but if you were a US commander being told by an Iraqi relative of these guys, knowing this was a safe house for them, don't you think that anything told you at that moment would be suspect? And further, 4 US soldiers entered the house and were wounded BEFORE any firefight started. If it were a police action taken in Detroit, you can bet the police would shoot and ask questions later. Same thing here.


Sometiimes it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission. This is one of those times.

Moonbeam, what was done is done. It is part of war. Accept it. There is no conspircy to defraud. War is hell. People die. They died fighting the US Army. They lost. They chose to fight with their automatic weapons. You know damn well that they where told to come out with there hands up first. They didn't. They died. They are buried.

Move on to Saddam and Osama now. This case is closed.

 

[DealMonkey]

from Time.com: Hot on Saddam's Trail

...

"The sons fought hard. They went out tough. He can do no less." The noose around Saddam began to tighten on July 19 when U.S. forces received a tip about the whereabouts of Uday and Qusay. At the time, the source was not regarded as reliable. (According to a senior U.S. military official, the informant failed a polygraph test.) But intelligence units soon picked up an electronic signal that suggested the possible presence of high-level resisters in the same location in Mosul that the source had identified. Just after they began investigating the tip, U.S. forces were approached by Nawaf al-Zaydan Mohammed, a Mosul businessman who told them the brothers were staying at his house. The Americans told him to go back to the house, act normally and wait for U.S. troops to arrive.

In the meantime the U.S. needed another day to study aerial reconnaissance photographs of the neighborhood, cordon it off and get Task Force 20 in place. The savagery of the fight that followed matched the way the brothers had led their lives. Armed with little more than AK-47s, the brothers, Qusay's son Mustafa and a bodyguard repulsed U.S. assault troops four times before the order came to fire an anti-tank missile into each window of the house. According to a commander with the 4th Infantry Division, Uday was still alive when a Delta Force commando stormed the bathroom where the brothers had barricaded themselves. Following Delta Force's standard procedure, the soldier immediately pumped two bullets into Uday's mouth, to ensure his death. The resulting injuries prompted speculation that Uday had committed suicide. Mustafa, 14, was the last to fall, firing from under a bed until he was shot dead.

The U.S. is using intelligence picked up during the fire fight and in subsequent searches of the hideout to ratchet up the pressure on Saddam loyalists. According to a Pentagon official in Iraq, American forces searching the house found a list of payments made to family contacts throughout the country after the regime fell. The value of that information may overshadow the strategic importance of eliminating Uday and Qusay. What's more, during the six-hour shoot-out, the brothers were constantly on the phone, making panicked calls to friends and supporters, providing a windfall for the U.S., which had the house under full electronic surveillance. The military used the intercepted calls to track down and arrest family associates with knowledge of Saddam's movements, according to a senior U.S. military official. Some American officials interpret the fact that the brothers were found together as a sign of their desperation. The brothers' original strategy, the military believes, was to elude U.S. forces by hiding separately.

...

 

[LunarRay]

All the discussion about US action in Iraq should be accompanied by the caveat that the invasion and subsequent presence was and is legal. To the extent it is not then neither are the actions so effected or inspired.

I would like to see the evidence of intent to use WMD against the US before I start agreeing the rightfulness of acts and all.. The WMD themselves would be nice too.. but, I don't think they will be forthcoming..

 

[Burke55]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Burke55
These two particular towel heads deserved to die. They were both at best only nominally deserving of even being referred to as human beings. I wish I could have been there to empty a clip into the bodies just so I could say I did.. We are doing a fair job of keeping Allah supplied with fresh meat for his martyr pool. Uhrah. I only wish we could kill 100,000 radical scumbag fecal matter looking towel heads for every single American KIA. UHRAH....

remember 9/11.

Wow, when Bush says "liberate Iraqis" do you think he means "kill the towel heads"? You add interesting insight into the motives of the administration.

 

[Burke55]

Yeah, I do believe the basic policy of the troops in the field is to kill on site any beloved patriot who proves to be

A. A terrorist ....all terrorists in the cause of Al Qaeda are automatically subhuman and their deaths amount to nothing other than providing nourishment for the earth in the form of processed remains. The only good Al Qaeda operative is a dead one. Ask any American soldier this ....they will agree to a man.

B. Any innocent dumbass local indigenouos Iraqi who should be safely in his or her home and gets caught in the line of fire......these are referred to as collateral damage. If I were on patrol in Iraq my trigger finger would naturally be itchy due a sense of or a general desire to remain alive and return home whole and not in a body bag. Better them than me. Many of the Americans killed in the last month by hostile fire never saw it coming...if I were an Iraqi civilian I would make it a point of staying out of contact with Americans for the time being.....simply to avoid the wrath of some pissed off midwestern fella who is understandably nervous.

C. Yes , the Bush admin has declared total war on hostile extremist Islamic towel heads. The non hostile towel heads have little to worry about.

D. In war it is necessary to dehumanize your enemies .....this makes it much easier to kill the little bastards.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I dinna know guys. It is easy to say you are going to take people captive, but it's hard as hell to do so when they are trying to make it otherwise. Tell you what though, when they find Saddam, they need to take him alive no matter what. That means even if we lose some soldiers. There are things the world needs to know that only he can tell us.

 

[Moonbeam]

That is true, but if you were a US commander being told by an Iraqi relative of these guys, knowing this was a safe house for them, don't you think that anything told you at that moment would be suspect?
--------------
With 30 million riding on the accuracy of the info, not a chance.
=====================
D. In war it is necessary to dehumanize your enemies .....this makes it much easier to kill the little bastards.
---------------------------
You can't dehumanize the enemy, you only dehumanize yourself.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Frankly M, I haven't much confidence on information coming to us after the war, since it was so poorly doled out and misrepresented before it. Given that these two were either going to kill or be killed, getting killed was really the only option. Now if it were to be found that the truth of the matter was different than presented in the accounts, I would readjust my thinking to fit the facts. All I have to go on is what I am told. Now if that is false, then I have another beef with this administration. Number 13535363 if I am counting right

 

[DealMonkey]

According to a commander with the 4th Infantry Division, Uday was still alive when a Delta Force commando stormed the bathroom where the brothers had barricaded themselves. Following Delta Force's standard procedure, the soldier immediately pumped two bullets into Uday's mouth, to ensure his death.

 

[LunarRay]

Citizen Smith,
I've maybe not even one beef if it can be shown that the US invaded Iraq because there existed an exigent circumstance regarding the Iraqi use of WMD against the US and to thwart the intentions of Iraq and extinguish the exigency we had to invade Iraq. If, however, the Administration lied I then have beef a plenty and nothing that would otherwise be construed as 'good' that occurred as a result of the invasion and presence matters... to me anyhow.

 

[LikuidElvanFirestar]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

According to a commander with the 4th Infantry Division, Uday was still alive when a Delta Force commando stormed the bathroom where the brothers had barricaded themselves. Following Delta Force's standard procedure, the soldier immediately pumped two bullets into Uday's mouth, to ensure his death.

Pretty grisly details.. Where did you get this? That's doesn't sound like standard capture protocol of warhawks' top-most wanted list.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-7-2003_pg4_2

* Troops could have captured Saddam?s sons alive, says Syrian official

BEIRUT: A Syrian official said the US could have captured Saddam Hussein?s sons alive and hinted that killing the pair in a US military raid in Iraq may have been to cover up past American political dealings with the defunct regime. Uday and Qusay Hussein were reportedly killed on July 22 in a gun battle in northern Iraq by a US force hunting down leaders of the former regime.

Syria has been a vocal critic of the US war in Iraq. Relations between Washington and Damascus have been strained in recent months over American accusations that Syria supported the ousted Iraqi regime and sheltered some members during and after the war ? charges that Syria denied.

?Of course Saddam Hussein and his children bear the responsibility of turning this country (Iraq) into this rubble,? Syrian Foreign Ministry official Buthaina Shaaban said last night. But the spokeswoman, speaking from Damascus added: ?it was very possible of the US to capture Uday and Qusay instead of killing them. But maybe ? and this is very possible ? that there are files that they (Americans) don?t want to be uncovered.? ?AP

Didn't the Pakistani's kill an American reporter simply because he was American? Why are you posting garbage from them? Why not go to osamaonline.com for some real anti-american drivel. You are getting slack in your postings of America is da debil, you need to go back to training at Berkeley. Marx would be turning over in his grave if he knew you were doing this.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-7-2003_pg4_2

* Troops could have captured Saddam?s sons alive, says Syrian official

BEIRUT: A Syrian official said the US could have captured Saddam Hussein?s sons alive and hinted that killing the pair in a US military raid in Iraq may have been to cover up past American political dealings with the defunct regime. Uday and Qusay Hussein were reportedly killed on July 22 in a gun battle in northern Iraq by a US force hunting down leaders of the former regime.

Syria has been a vocal critic of the US war in Iraq. Relations between Washington and Damascus have been strained in recent months over American accusations that Syria supported the ousted Iraqi regime and sheltered some members during and after the war ? charges that Syria denied.

?Of course Saddam Hussein and his children bear the responsibility of turning this country (Iraq) into this rubble,? Syrian Foreign Ministry official Buthaina Shaaban said last night. But the spokeswoman, speaking from Damascus added: ?it was very possible of the US to capture Uday and Qusay instead of killing them. But maybe ? and this is very possible ? that there are files that they (Americans) don?t want to be uncovered.? ?AP

Didn't the Pakistani's kill an American reporter simply because he was American? Why are you posting garbage from them? Why not go to osamaonline.com for some real anti-american drivel. You are getting slack in your postings of America is da debil, you need to go back to training at Berkeley. Marx would be turning over in his grave if he knew you were doing this.

Here we have attack the credibility of the source instead of the argument at hand. Divert attention away from the point at hand. Reduce argument to a slogan. Then we get a slur-garbage. More misdirection in the direction of reference to the despised, Osama the devil and Berkeley, tarring with a broad brush. What we have here is essentially a propaganda piece devoid of intellectual content.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: LikuidElvanFirestar

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

According to a commander with the 4th Infantry Division, Uday was still alive when a Delta Force commando stormed the bathroom where the brothers had barricaded themselves. Following Delta Force's standard procedure, the soldier immediately pumped two bullets into Uday's mouth, to ensure his death.

Pretty grisly details.. Where did you get this? That's doesn't sound like standard capture protocol of warhawks' top-most wanted list.

From:
Time.com

I posted more text a few posts up...

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-7-2003_pg4_2

* Troops could have captured Saddam?s sons alive, says Syrian official

BEIRUT: A Syrian official said the US could have captured Saddam Hussein?s sons alive and hinted that killing the pair in a US military raid in Iraq may have been to cover up past American political dealings with the defunct regime. Uday and Qusay Hussein were reportedly killed on July 22 in a gun battle in northern Iraq by a US force hunting down leaders of the former regime.

Syria has been a vocal critic of the US war in Iraq. Relations between Washington and Damascus have been strained in recent months over American accusations that Syria supported the ousted Iraqi regime and sheltered some members during and after the war ? charges that Syria denied.

?Of course Saddam Hussein and his children bear the responsibility of turning this country (Iraq) into this rubble,? Syrian Foreign Ministry official Buthaina Shaaban said last night. But the spokeswoman, speaking from Damascus added: ?it was very possible of the US to capture Uday and Qusay instead of killing them. But maybe ? and this is very possible ? that there are files that they (Americans) don?t want to be uncovered.? ?AP

Didn't the Pakistani's kill an American reporter simply because he was American? Why are you posting garbage from them? Why not go to osamaonline.com for some real anti-american drivel. You are getting slack in your postings of America is da debil, you need to go back to training at Berkeley. Marx would be turning over in his grave if he knew you were doing this.

Here we have attack the credibility of the source instead of the argument at hand. Divert attention away from the point at hand. Reduce argument to a slogan. Then we get a slur-garbage. More misdirection in the direction of reference to the despised, Osama the devil and Berkeley, tarring with a broad brush. What we have here is essentially a propaganda piece devoid of intellectual content.

Would you rather me quote links from the IDFtimes, GOP.org, Christian websites and call them the complete unbiased truth? I call them as they see em question those that are questionable instead of joinging in with the sheep crowd that you have taken up with.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-7-2003_pg4_2

* Troops could have captured Saddam?s sons alive, says Syrian official

BEIRUT: A Syrian official said the US could have captured Saddam Hussein?s sons alive and hinted that killing the pair in a US military raid in Iraq may have been to cover up past American political dealings with the defunct regime. Uday and Qusay Hussein were reportedly killed on July 22 in a gun battle in northern Iraq by a US force hunting down leaders of the former regime.

Syria has been a vocal critic of the US war in Iraq. Relations between Washington and Damascus have been strained in recent months over American accusations that Syria supported the ousted Iraqi regime and sheltered some members during and after the war ? charges that Syria denied.

?Of course Saddam Hussein and his children bear the responsibility of turning this country (Iraq) into this rubble,? Syrian Foreign Ministry official Buthaina Shaaban said last night. But the spokeswoman, speaking from Damascus added: ?it was very possible of the US to capture Uday and Qusay instead of killing them. But maybe ? and this is very possible ? that there are files that they (Americans) don?t want to be uncovered.? ?AP

Didn't the Pakistani's kill an American reporter simply because he was American? Why are you posting garbage from them? Why not go to osamaonline.com for some real anti-american drivel. You are getting slack in your postings of America is da debil, you need to go back to training at Berkeley. Marx would be turning over in his grave if he knew you were doing this.

Here we have attack the credibility of the source instead of the argument at hand. Divert attention away from the point at hand. Reduce argument to a slogan. Then we get a slur-garbage. More misdirection in the direction of reference to the despised, Osama the devil and Berkeley, tarring with a broad brush. What we have here is essentially a propaganda piece devoid of intellectual content.

Would you rather me quote links from the IDFtimes, GOP.org, Christian websites and call them the complete unbiased truth? I call them as they see em question those that are questionable instead of joinging in with the sheep crowd that you have taken up with.

Bhaaaaaaaaaaaaa Quote the Christians, please. I have a lot in common with the Lord is my Shepherd folk.

 

[CaptnKirk]

This is a clip from a post from the 'TIME.COM' post by Dealmonkey -

Following Delta Force's standard procedure, the soldier immediately pumped two bullets into Uday's mouth, to ensure his death.

I read that the other day, and I have delayed saying anything at all about that statement, until now.

If they were down and a soldier could walk up like that unchallenged, her was no longer a threat - and alive.
The one who fired and had fire returned was correct action & counteraction.

This is proof positive that they wanted them dead - this was an assassination in the end.
True, he may have been injured to a point where his condition was unsurvivable, but the 'Standard Practice' of firing point blank
into the mouth of a person who was still alive at that point after a fire-fight is murder, reguardles of who they were.

We have made a big point of contentenion with our pomp and circumstances in the world court - and the UN, about treatment of captured prisoners.
We have always condemmed the 'Enemy Participants' of executing our captured and injured Soldiers on the battlefield.
There were well over 1,000 of our men killed by execution after battles in Viet Nam before we could secure the area and perform extraction of personel.

I'M not saying right or wrong about this, I asking why the 'Standard Procedure' Policy ?
It is exactly the reverse of the position we posture for world wide, then violate.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
This is a clip from a post from the 'TIME.COM' post by Dealmonkey -

Following Delta Force's standard procedure, the soldier immediately pumped two bullets into Uday's mouth, to ensure his death.

I read that the other day, and I have delayed saying anything at all about that statement, until now.

If they were down and a soldier could walk up like that unchallenged, her was no longer a threat - and alive.
The one who fired and had fire returned was correct action & counteraction.

This is proof positive that they wanted them dead - this was an assassination in the end.
True, he may have been injured to a point where his condition was unsurvivable, but the 'Standard Practice' of firing point blank
into the mouth of a person who was still alive at that point after a fire-fight is murder, reguardles of who they were.

We have made a big point of contentenion with our pomp and circumstances in the world court - and the UN, about treatment of captured prisoners.
We have always condemmed the 'Enemy Participants' of executing our captured and injured Soldiers on the battlefield.
There were well over 1,000 of our men killed by execution after battles in Viet Nam before we could secure the area and perform extraction of personel.

I'M not saying right or wrong about this, I asking why the 'Standard Procedure' Policy ?
It is exactly the reverse of the position we posture for world wide, then violate.

They had a chance to surrender, they didn't take it. Until they were dead they were a threat.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I am glad they are dead...

I am disgusted that we sent their bodies back too. We should have lit the things on fire and tossed them out of an airlpane over Tikrit.

Play the role of Allah for a moment:

Do you want those disgusting pieces of sh!t to be buried in your name and have your supposed blessing? NO way.. if there is such a thing as the devil then I am sending them straight to hell if I was Allah.. and QUCIKLY too.

It's much easier to invade a country, occupy it, and take over its resources when you demonize the leadership.

Do you really think Saddam and his sons were that evil? If so how do you defend the US support of their regime? That would make Reagan/Bush as evil as Saddam and his sons.

That I could believe.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: BOBDN

Originally posted by: dahunan
I am glad they are dead...

I am disgusted that we sent their bodies back too. We should have lit the things on fire and tossed them out of an airlpane over Tikrit.

Play the role of Allah for a moment:

Do you want those disgusting pieces of sh!t to be buried in your name and have your supposed blessing? NO way.. if there is such a thing as the devil then I am sending them straight to hell if I was Allah.. and QUCIKLY too.

It's much easier to invade a country, occupy it, and take over its resources when you demonize the leadership.

Do you really think Saddam and his sons were that evil? If so how do you defend the US support of their regime? That would make Reagan/Bush as evil as Saddam and his sons.

That I could believe.

It's all black an white for you isn't it? By your logic, we shouldn't have allied with Russia in WWII correct? Or was our government evil then too?

 

[CaptnKirk]

They had a chance to surrender - They didn't.
One was found still alive and incapacitated - helpless, but alive.
A burst of gunfire through the mouth into the brain was more convenient than waiting for medical assistance.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
They had a chance to surrender - They didn't.
One was found still alive and incapacitated - helpless, but alive.
A burst of gunfire through the mouth into the brain was more convenient than waiting for medical assistance.

Where did you get the information that he was incapacitated?

 

[DealMonkey]

Personally, I wish they were taken alive only so I could see the Iraqi people beat them with their shoes. I hear they like to do that over there