US government, media hyping the Taliban threat in Pakistan

[Craig234]

Link to Bill Moyers segment with a Chrsitian Science Monitor reporter and Juan Cole.

This is an eye-opening segment which convincingly argues, among other things, that the US is greatly hyping the Taliban threat in Pakistan for its own reasons.

They acknowledge the Taliban are 'a problem', but not nearly the threat we're hearing.

There is history there, that as so often, the religious fundamentalists were used by Pakistan as a force against Inidia - and are now a problem for Pakistan. The Pakinstan military (ISI( had close links with them for those operations. But a variety of indications that the government has turned on the Taliban, and is far more powerful.

The interviews heat up in the last 4 or 5 minutes, if you only watch par,t, watch that.

 

[OCGuy]

Right, they are just a boogie man made up by Dick Cheney

In fact, they probably dont even exist

And here is that right-wing rag known as the AP discussing them.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Right, they are just a boogie man made up by Dick Cheney

In fact, they probably dont even exist

And here is that right-wing rag known as the AP discussing them.

Nice, I think you just proved the OP's thread title to be 100% true.

Seems that only one man in DC gets it.

 

[palehorse]

If there is any intentional "hype" at this stage, it's only bringing the level of attention to the Taliban threat that should have been given all along.

IOW, it's about g'damn time you idiots started paying attention.

We've been calling on Pakistan to do exactly this for more than eight years!

Now, if only we could get them to better coordinate everything with NATO, we could bring the entire might of the civilized world down on the Taliban's heads and end this godforsaken fight once and for all... if only...

 

[biostud]

Around 11% of Pakistan is under Taliban control.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: biostud
Around 11% of Pakistan is under Taliban control.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is equivalent of saying 19% of the USA is under Rush Limbaugh control
as the GOP races to become only a regional party.

But even less accurate regarding the tribal areas of Pakistan where Sharia type law
law has always been the de facto standard long before the Taliban even came into existence.

And I suspect what biostud is calling the Taliban is a loose alliance of local Pasthun tribesmen,
old line Mujahadeen formerly allied with the Pakistani central government, a relatively few Al-Quida types, imported Arab fighters more aligned with Wahabist beliefs, and quite a few Taliban fighters pushed from Afghanistan and into the Tribal areas of Pakistan.

And while its possible to assert that some 10 to 11% off all Pakistani citizens live in the tribal areas of Pakistan, which would then compute to be some 17 million, and we use a very high estimate of 25,000 for the actual number of Taliban, we are still left with only only 1/6 of one percent of the tribal areas population being Taliban. And in the rest of the remaining 150 million or so population in the more modern areas of Pakistan, actual Taliban numbers there is unlikely to crack one hundredth of one percent.

But because Taliban type views resembled the views of the local Tribal area population, the Taliban were able to gain a disproportionate share of the leadership. But when the Taliban's too aggressive for total local control resulted in a Pakistani army crackdown that makes as many as a million residents into refugees and threatens the local autonomy the tribal areas had formerly, its very likely to get most of the 17 Million Tribal area residents to drop the Taliban like hot potatoes. And transform the Taliban from guests into net liabilities for the tribal areas IMHO.

Wiser heads within the Tribal areas of Pakistan are likely to conclude, that the former autonomy
they enjoyed is more valuable, and if the price of that is giving up the Taliban, that is a price they will cheerfully pay.

 

[kage69]

We need to prosecute the Taliban and all other AQ affiliates until the gophers are bringing their mail. After waiting so long for the leadership of America to really get serious about answering 9/11, I simply can't bring myself to agree that the problem of Taliban is somehow 'overstated.' Perhaps if this issue once again receives more concern here in the States, it will lead to a similar level of commitment in Pakistan. We need to break up Pakistan's image of us always leaving before they will get really serious and help us eradicate the common threat.

Now, if only we could get them to better coordinate everything with NATO, we could bring the entire might of the civilized world down on the Taliban's heads and end this godforsaken fight once and for all... if only...

I feel this sentiment cannot be overstated. :thumbsup: Well said palehorse :beer:

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: biostud
Around 11% of Pakistan is under Taliban control.

LOL. That's a perfect example of using statistics to misguide. What do you mean by Taliban control? If it means that Taliban groups murdered a few people in the area then yea; maybe close to 11%. If you mean that there is no government presence in the area then you are retarded. There are Alqaeeda cells all over Europe. If they went on a murdering spree would that mean than x% of Europe is under Alqeeda control. All of Pakistan knows that it's American agenda to blow this waaaaaay out of proportion. I've heard people ask me if it's safe to leave my house. Or if I can talk to women.

I'd say I'd feel less safe in New York with the crime rate there than Karachi.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: biostud
Around 11% of Pakistan is under Taliban control.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is equivalent of saying 19% of the USA is under Rush Limbaugh control
as the GOP races to become only a regional party.

But even less accurate regarding the tribal areas of Pakistan where Sharia type law
law has always been the de facto standard long before the Taliban even came into existence.

And I suspect what biostud is calling the Taliban is a loose alliance of local Pasthun tribesmen,
old line Mujahadeen formerly allied with the Pakistani central government, a relatively few Al-Quida types, imported Arab fighters more aligned with Wahabist beliefs, and quite a few Taliban fighters pushed from Afghanistan and into the Tribal areas of Pakistan.

And while its possible to assert that some 10 to 11% off all Pakistani citizens live in the tribal areas of Pakistan, which would then compute to be some 17 million, and we use a very high estimate of 25,000 for the actual number of Taliban, we are still left with only only 1/6 of one percent of the tribal areas population being Taliban. And in the rest of the remaining 150 million or so population in the more modern areas of Pakistan, actual Taliban numbers there is unlikely to crack one hundredth of one percent.

But because Taliban type views resembled the views of the local Tribal area population, the Taliban were able to gain a disproportionate share of the leadership. But when the Taliban's too aggressive for total local control resulted in a Pakistani army crackdown that makes as many as a million residents into refugees and threatens the local autonomy the tribal areas had formerly, its very likely to get most of the 17 Million Tribal area residents to drop the Taliban like hot potatoes. And transform the Taliban from guests into net liabilities for the tribal areas IMHO.

Wiser heads within the Tribal areas of Pakistan are likely to conclude, that the former autonomy
they enjoyed is more valuable, and if the price of that is giving up the Taliban, that is a price they will cheerfully pay.

I've yet to see a person who has escaped the figthing who has had a kind word for the Taliban. Most say the military should have done this earlier. They say they don't care if their cities are destroyed as long as the Taliban is eliminated. They blame it all on the Taliban.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: palehorse
If there is any intentional "hype" at this stage, it's only bringing the level of attention to the Taliban threat that should have been given all along.

IOW, it's about g'damn time you idiots started paying attention.

You make dittoheads look good with your posting approach.

We've been calling on Pakistan to do exactly this for more than eight years!

Now, if only we could get them to better coordinate everything with NATO, we could bring the entire might of the civilized world down on the Taliban's heads and end this godforsaken fight once and for all... if only...

The issue isn't the amount of attention, but the characterization of the threat level.

All the 'Pakistan is on the verge of falling and the Taliban will overthrow the governmment within a few months' and 'they're only 60 miles from the capital and close to taking it' talk.

Did you even watch the segment before commenting on the thread about it? I'd guess not.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: biostud
Around 11% of Pakistan is under Taliban control.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is equivalent of saying 19% of the USA is under Rush Limbaugh control
as the GOP races to become only a regional party.

But even less accurate regarding the tribal areas of Pakistan where Sharia type law
law has always been the de facto standard long before the Taliban even came into existence.

And I suspect what biostud is calling the Taliban is a loose alliance of local Pasthun tribesmen,
old line Mujahadeen formerly allied with the Pakistani central government, a relatively few Al-Quida types, imported Arab fighters more aligned with Wahabist beliefs, and quite a few Taliban fighters pushed from Afghanistan and into the Tribal areas of Pakistan.

And while its possible to assert that some 10 to 11% off all Pakistani citizens live in the tribal areas of Pakistan, which would then compute to be some 17 million, and we use a very high estimate of 25,000 for the actual number of Taliban, we are still left with only only 1/6 of one percent of the tribal areas population being Taliban. And in the rest of the remaining 150 million or so population in the more modern areas of Pakistan, actual Taliban numbers there is unlikely to crack one hundredth of one percent.

But because Taliban type views resembled the views of the local Tribal area population, the Taliban were able to gain a disproportionate share of the leadership. But when the Taliban's too aggressive for total local control resulted in a Pakistani army crackdown that makes as many as a million residents into refugees and threatens the local autonomy the tribal areas had formerly, its very likely to get most of the 17 Million Tribal area residents to drop the Taliban like hot potatoes. And transform the Taliban from guests into net liabilities for the tribal areas IMHO.

Wiser heads within the Tribal areas of Pakistan are likely to conclude, that the former autonomy
they enjoyed is more valuable, and if the price of that is giving up the Taliban, that is a price they will cheerfully pay.

I've yet to see a person who has escaped the figthing who has had a kind word for the Taliban. Most say the military should have done this earlier. They say they don't care if their cities are destroyed as long as the Taliban is eliminated. They blame it all on the Taliban.

Great! :thumbsup:

 

[Lemon law]

What we really have is three things being said with.

1. "I've yet to see a person who has escaped the figthing who has had a kind word for the Taliban. Most say the military should have done this earlier. They say they don't care if their cities are destroyed as long as the Taliban is eliminated. They blame it all on the Taliban."

2. "A palehorse Tony the tiger Great!"

3. As in the fast shuffle of forgetting to vett or question facts and assertions, we also forget to look at what its possibly going to mean on the Afghan side of the border.

First of all, anyone who thinks ALL tribal area residents are only going to blame the Taliban and not also going to blame the Pakistani government must be a huge fan of government propaganda. But I do think that the Pakistani side of the Taliban and those entities that deal with it, now realize that they over reached in trying to grab tribal area control. And that what works in Afghanistan does not work in Pakistan. Partly because things are time shifted, the Western powers, both Russia and the USA, have made Afghanistan into a basket case of anarchy for the past three decades, and to that extent the Taliban has some basis in fact to argue that its brutal tactics were needed to actually make things better briefly in Afghanistan.

Yet real political instability has not reached the Tribal areas of Pakistan until a few years ago, and that is partly due to Nato bombings. And now that the Taliban tried to use brutal tactics to over reach in Pakistan, it has no claim to ever making life better in the tribal areas of Pakistan.

But in Afghanistan, the Taliban bread and butter is in noting that Nato has done nothing to end Afghan anarchy and corruption in seven full years.

We do not yet know if Pakistan will end the tribal areas legal anarchy, but Nato would be wise if it tended to that knitting.