US Conquests: Germany/Japan was a success. Will Afgan/Iraq?

[JEDI]

since today is 9/11, the question popped up in my mind.

I feel we had a legitimate cause for Afganistan.
less so for Iraq.

nevertheless, $BILLIONS$ spent and those 2 countries are still a mess.

how many decades did it take for Germany/Japan to be a success?

 

[Bitek]

The middle east will remain a mess for a long long time. This will take generations to work out.

At least Germany and Japan were industrialized, stable, civilized and had a clear national identity and history.

Iraq & Afgan (and the surrounding areas) are artificial creations from the remnants of fallen empires and Victorian-era imperial bureaucrats with a mashup of diverse and competing ethnic and religious populations. "Hey, here's a large majority Pashtun population, let's draw a border right down the middle and force them into being minorities in countries with people they hate."

The people are also poor, with little industry, resources and skills other than war making. What hope for peace in our lifetimes is there?

 

[Fern]

US Conquests: Germany/Japan was a success. Will Afgan/Iraq?

I think you'll need to define "success".

IMO, very few similarities between the first two and the latter two countries. Germany & Japan and were able to successfully transition into democracies; much less so for the latter two.

Germany & Japan had a homogeneous population compared to Iraq & Afghanistan. Also Germany & Japan had structured and disciplined populations, again, not so much for the latter two.

Geographically, Germany & Japan were were mostly surrounded by stable countries. Iraq & Afghanistan are in a 'hot bed' region with outside influences creating instability and trouble in them.

Fern

 

[DesiPower]

There is a fundamental difference between those to set of counties. Obviously you don't understand that and that's why you created this thread. God created all men equally is the biggest lie ever told to humanity

 

[werepossum]

Both Germany and Japan were stable and peaceful within a decade. Both also had populations that had a strong habitual acquiescence to secular national authority. Afghanistan has a strong habitual acquiescence to tribal warlords and religious leaders, and Iraq to a much lesser degree is the same. Both nations' religious leaders are almost uniformly in direct opposition to what we want for those nations, and their tribal leaders are at the least out to increase their own power at the expense of the nation overall. Even if they had reasonably inhomogeneous populations - and clearly neither does - there is little chance of success. Ironically, it is much more secular Iraq that appears to be headed for the ultimate disaster, whereas Afghanistan will simply return to being the same target for G-d's enema that it's always been.

 

[JEDIYoda]

We have no interest in a conquest! We did not enter ww2 to conquer Germany or Japan......conquering was not the goal!! The goal was to stop the aggression against others..

 

[Kadarin]

Islamic countries will always tend to be shitholes.

 

[rudder]

Sad to say, but every country in the middle east needs a non-sectarian dictator.

 

[alcoholbob]

Japan and Germany would be successful and productive nations with or without American occupation.

 

[Capt Caveman]

since today is 9/11, the question popped up in my mind.

I feel we had a legitimate cause for Afganistan.
less so for Iraq.

nevertheless, $BILLIONS$ spent and those 2 countries are still a mess.

how many decades did it take for Germany/Japan to be a success?

Retard, you're comparing Apples vs Oranges

 

[xaeniac]

wars longer than 4 years are typically Fail!

 

[bshole]

Japan and Germany would be successful and productive nations with or without American occupation.

And Iraq and Afghanistan will be shitholes with or without American occupation.

 

[Sonikku]

Iraq/Afgan can be a major win for America. We just need to give the military complex the funds it needs to build better tanks and jets and it'll be in the can.

 

[trenchfoot]

Iraq/Afgan can be a major win for America. We just need to give the military complex the funds it needs to build better tanks and jets and it'll be in the can.

Nah, all we need is for Tony Stark to get over himself and get corrupted by Justin Hammer once and for all. Then those two can get really busy cleaning out the closets and basements in the middle east.

 

[Genx87]

These countries had a single culture for the most part. Also had a national identity that went back hundreds or thousands of years.

Occupation to them with an eventual road to self determination was acceptable. The ME is full of tribes forced into national borders by former western imperialists. They havent had their bloodshed to establish borders. Hundreds of millions died in the creation of nations in Europe and the rest of the west. The ME will have to go through a similar transformation. But I suspect the rest of the world wont let them.

 

[Atreus21]

Both Germany and Japan were stable and peaceful within a decade. Both also had populations that had a strong habitual acquiescence to secular national authority. Afghanistan has a strong habitual acquiescence to tribal warlords and religious leaders, and Iraq to a much lesser degree is the same. Both nations' religious leaders are almost uniformly in direct opposition to what we want for those nations, and their tribal leaders are at the least out to increase their own power at the expense of the nation overall. Even if they had reasonably inhomogeneous populations - and clearly neither does - there is little chance of success. Ironically, it is much more secular Iraq that appears to be headed for the ultimate disaster, whereas Afghanistan will simply return to being the same target for G-d's enema that it's always been.

And something that people seem to be missing:

We stayed in Germany and Japan for quite a while after the war.

 

[Fern]

And something that people seem to be missing:

We stayed in Germany and Japan for quite a while after the war.

Yeah, in fact we're still in both.

Fern

 

[chucky2]

Not only did we stay for decades, we knew and expected we'd be staying for decades. We let them have a civilian leadership structure, but there was no doubt who was calling the shots - either with that leadership or their civilians.

Contrast that with how we handled Afghanistan and Iraq. We got a civilian leadership in there, but didn't drip out increasing decision making powers to it, we simply gave it far too much too quickly in the auspices of 'look we're not really taking you over, you guys are largely in control of yourselves'. Mixed in with the current US attitude of, If it can't be done McDonald's fast at Wal-mart prices, Commence Full Whine and Second Guess mode. Throw in some scum Politicians and Media doing what they can to subvert success and you've got failure written on the wall.

The lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan isn't that we can't conquer and institutionalize nations to our approximate way of thinking - we can, Germany and Japan proved that. It's that we can't do it on the quick, cheap, or politically correct. We're going to be non-politically correct when we need to be, it won't be cheap, and it will take 2-4 decades of concerted effort. It's why we keep failing at it over and over...

 

[JEDIYoda]

God created all men equally is the biggest lie ever told to humanity

umm actually as far as circumstances go you are correct!!

 

[werepossum]

And something that people seem to be missing:

We stayed in Germany and Japan for quite a while after the war.

Good point.

Not only did we stay for decades, we knew and expected we'd be staying for decades. We let them have a civilian leadership structure, but there was no doubt who was calling the shots - either with that leadership or their civilians.

Contrast that with how we handled Afghanistan and Iraq. We got a civilian leadership in there, but didn't drip out increasing decision making powers to it, we simply gave it far too much too quickly in the auspices of 'look we're not really taking you over, you guys are largely in control of yourselves'. Mixed in with the current US attitude of, If it can't be done McDonald's fast at Wal-mart prices, Commence Full Whine and Second Guess mode. Throw in some scum Politicians and Media doing what they can to subvert success and you've got failure written on the wall.

The lesson of Iraq and Afghanistan isn't that we can't conquer and institutionalize nations to our approximate way of thinking - we can, Germany and Japan proved that. It's that we can't do it on the quick, cheap, or politically correct. We're going to be non-politically correct when we need to be, it won't be cheap, and it will take 2-4 decades of concerted effort. It's why we keep failing at it over and over...

Well said.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Reconstruction happened in Germany and Japan.
60 billion was spent in Iraq and nothing was finished

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013...-abuse-commonplace-iraq-reconstruction-effort

 

[Orignal Earl]

Both also had populations that had a strong habitual acquiescence to secular national authority. .

Well..Japan believed it's emperor was a God

 

[werepossum]

Well..Japan believed it's emperor was a God

Yes, and in the 90s they quietly reinstated that. However, the emperor didn't actually rule.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

since today is 9/11, the question popped up in my mind.

I feel we had a legitimate cause for Afganistan.
less so for Iraq.

nevertheless, $BILLIONS$ spent and those 2 countries are still a mess.

how many decades did it take for Germany/Japan to be a success?

The German and Japanese citizens were not suffering from religious insanity. They had a much higher "rationality" factor than the people in the Middle East. Also, much of the problem we're seeing in the Middle East is based on religious/ethnic grounds, whereas the German and Japanese people were relatively homogeneous and not engaged in internal warfare.

 

[MongGrel]

I think we need to invade Saudi Arabia, and Dubai and go, "hey how you guys like that "

Then plunk down a few bases and watch everyone freak out and kill each other while we watch.

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