UPS requirement problem with gtx 480

Wedge1

Senior member
Mar 22, 2003
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I have this UPS: http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP6.../dp/B000OTEZ5I

I also have an nvidia gtx 480. The problem is that under certain loads (while gaming) the alarm to my UPS goes off, and if pushed far enough, the PC shuts down.

The PC is plugged into the Cyberpower UPS using a "surge/battery" outlet, rather than just a "surge" alone. The idea is to be able to keep the PC going in case I am doing work and the power goes down in my house; hence the reason I have it plugged into the "surge/battery" side.

Can anybody recommend a UPS that will be able to handle the load draw of this video card? I am not sure exactly how this calculation is determined.
 

Ferzerp

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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That's only a 340W UPS. How they can claim it's 600VA is beyond me (whoever heard of equipment with a .57 power factor).
 

javier_machuk

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Jul 28, 2011
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That's only a 340W UPS. How they can claim it's 600VA is beyond me (whoever heard of equipment with a .57 power factor).

actually most UPS suppliers assume a power factor of ~0.5-0.6 for a "standart" computer load, that's why they say that a 600 VA UPS is for about 340 W
 

rgallant

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Apr 14, 2007
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I just picked this one because it listed the run time on NEW BATTERIES

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/...&cid=255160&lid=4522435&acd=12309163088460810

Run Time (Up To)

3.7 min at full load ¦ 14.5 min at half load

" The idea is to be able to keep the PC going in case I am doing work and the power goes down in my house;"

for the size \ price all you will get is a soft turn off when the power go's off . then have the ups turn it back on per your settings ,eg power on when batts get back up to 80%
-I use only smart apc ups 's , so I'm not sure - so check for that feature when buying a non smart ups.
 

Ferzerp

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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actually most UPS suppliers assume a power factor of ~0.5-0.6 for a "standart" computer load, that's why they say that a 600 VA UPS is for about 340 W


That's not a reasonable assumption at all. And really, the standard assumption is more like .8 (which also is far too low).

To give you an example, the 80 plus certifications require a minimum of .9 PF.
 

javier_machuk

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Jul 28, 2011
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That's not a reasonable assumption at all. And really, the standard assumption is more like .8 (which also is far too low).

To give you an example, the 80 plus certifications require a minimum of .9 PF.

the problem is that you are not going to get that, especially with non "truesinewave" ups, since what this UPS provide is a modified square signal and that causes a distortion factor that is added to the displacement factor which is inherent from inductive/capacitive loads
 

Wedge1

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Mar 22, 2003
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Can somebody tell me what advantage I might have with a "pure sine wave tower UPS"? Is this something that is more compatible with power supplies using active power factor correction? Is this something I need to pay attention to?

Sorry if this deviates too much off-topic of video cards. My original question was about finding a UPS for the gtx 480, but research is leading me to ask power-related questions.
 
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thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
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I've talked about this a few times here so pardon me if I just try and give the quick and dirty version :)

When you have a UPS, you are taking AC and converting it to DC (to charge the batteries). When you switch to battery power that DC is going to AC through an inverter. There are line-interactive UPS' (most UPS are of this type). Here the load runs on the main power feed. When the main power feed goes out of spec (brown out, voltage spike, or total blackout), then the UPS kicks on to battery power to drive the load (in these situations there is a slight delay in kick on that some computer power supplies can handle and other's can't). This duration is nanoseconds in length, and the ability for equipment to survive this essentially comes down to how much reserve power the capacitors can store in the power supply, and the power supplies' ability to handle a sag in power (if the capacitance is low).

The alternative to this is an Online UPS, which constantly takes the incoming power, changes it to DC, and then back to AC. This ensures that the power coming from the UPS is as clean as possible. Most business oriented UPS' are of this variety and start at a fairly high cost due to the better electronics inside, as most consumer grade UPS systems do not have the proper heatsinks and cooling systems in place to run for any longer than their batteries will last.

Of these two types, you also have Modified sine wave UPS, and Pure Sine Wave UPS (though to my knowledge, there are no non-Pure sine wave, Online UPS, as there is no point in such a cost-cutting measure in an already expensive UPS.)

Modified sine waves re-create an AC current from a DC current by chopping. The result, in its crudest implementation, is the square wave. See below for a good image of the two wave sources that matter here (Square and Sine).

500px-Waveforms.svg.png


Now most (unless the equipment is of dubious origin) UPS' are not completely square wave, but rather an acceptable mixture in between a sine wave and square wave, known as a "modified sine wave" (or AVR as Cyberpower likes to coin it). There are many ways of implementing this, but ultimately what all manufacturers attempt to do is as cheaply as possible make a square wave resemble the proper sine wave of AC current.

The problem is that equipment is designed around a pure sine wave model. Incoming power deviates from this all the time (for instance most equipment can survive a +/-3% variance on AC frequency) In these situations however, the equipment must either compensate (by bucking or boosting), or if there are no protections in place, the equipment succumbs to abnormalities (clocks that use the AC power to keep time are notorious for malfunctioning on square wave power).

In a nutshell, modified sine wave power causes inductive loads and motors to run hotter, and more inefficiently. Depending on the sensitivity of the equipment, the type of load, and how "modified" the modified since wave UPS is, you can expect a 20-30% decrease in efficiency when a load is driven off of a modified sine wave. The equipment either has the power envelope to spare and will run fine, albeit hotter, or it will not have the room, and will refuse to run (shut down), or the power supply will simply release the magic smoke (some plasma TV's were known for this issue).

Also, as said by javier_machuk, when you have a modified sine wave load, the Power Factor sharply decreases, this is why your load has to fit within not only the Watts load, but also the VA rating.
 

thecoolnessrune

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Jun 8, 2005
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You schooled me on consumer UPSs. All my experience is with 30kVA+ (to much, much larger) devices.

Indeed, in that class of UPS, the above issues aren't faced at all. All UPS' of that class are Pure Sine Wave, Online UPS systems, and Power Factor when taking the inverter and the active PF power supplies used by most equipment connected to these system, should almost never dip below .95, which means that Wattage and VA should nearly overlap.

Unfortunately, in the consumer market, shortcuts in manufacturing do not get us close to these numbers. Modified sine wave UPS systems only exacerbate this problem rather than help it :(
 

TemjinGold

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Dec 16, 2006
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Awesome explanation, thanks. Some questions:

1) The much lower efficiency and whatnot--that only occurs DURING the blackout when the PC is running off battery, right?

2) Is there some easy way to figure out which PSUs can "take it" and which can't?

3) For those that can take it, does using modified sine abuse the equipment?

I'm basically trying to figure out if it's worth the money to swap my APC for a Pure Sine Wave unit of something. The cost isn't necessarily a problem, just wondering if I would see any benefit if I haven't had any problems so far (gamed through a couple of brownouts already with no issues.)
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
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Awesome explanation, thanks. Some questions:

1) The much lower efficiency and whatnot--that only occurs DURING the blackout when the PC is running off battery, right?

2) Is there some easy way to figure out which PSUs can "take it" and which can't?

3) For those that can take it, does using modified sine abuse the equipment?

I'm basically trying to figure out if it's worth the money to swap my APC for a Pure Sine Wave unit of something. The cost isn't necessarily a problem, just wondering if I would see any benefit if I haven't had any problems so far (gamed through a couple of brownouts already with no issues.)

Happy to help :)

1. You are correct. Line-Interactive UPS systems are the only type of UPS that comes with the possibility of Modified sine wave that I know of (all Online units I've ever seen are Pure Sine Wave). In a situation where you have a Line-Interactive UPS using Modified Since Wave, your equipment will only be exposed to this modified sine wave power when the main power feed goes outside of set parameters (You can usually adjust the sensitivity of the unit when it will cut mains power and switch to batteries).

2. Forums and Google is pretty much your only hope. If you type in your power supply and notice where people say the system is shutting down when on the UPS or the unit is making loud whining noises or something similar, it likely is too sensitive to be used on a modified sine wave UPS. It doesn't mean the Power Supply is bad (indeed, many high end units can't run on modified sine wave power), it just means the PSU is too sensitive to allow itself to operate on such power. This is a bigger issue with active PFC.

3. Yes. Most forms of PFC (Power Factor Correction) rely on capacitor banks to smooth out the power. Feeding these capacitors modified sine wave power is harder on the system as it has to try to smooth out this power source to feed its Inverter. In loads that do not have Active PFC (many modern consumer electronics), the modified sine wave power can be damaging as running on modified sine wave power generates more waste heat that the PSU may, or may not be able to cope with given the same amount of power output. On that same note, Active PFC units (which are the most likely to be able to deal with this power without ill effects), are also the units most sensitive to running on this type of power, as the many forms of circuit protection on these types of power supplies will often cut power, considering it out of spec.
 

thecoolnessrune

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Jun 8, 2005
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Bump for TemjinGold's questions just above.

Also, I want to know if this unit should prevent the problem I am currently having with the unit I mention in my first post about the gtx 480: http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP1...cr_dp_asin_lnk

The UPS you linked should do a great job. The unit you linked has class-leading efficiency (often as high as 99%, as opposed to the Line-interactive standard of ~95%), and also tends to have the cleanest power output when put at high sensitivity settings amongst line-interative UPS systems (keep in mind that there is a clear gap in power deliver of Line-interactive, vs Online UPS systems, but that is because Online UPS systems are always generating a clean power system). The CyberPower has even better output than the APC SMT1000. This is mostly because of the different, smaller inverter that CyberPower is using compared to APC. Notice that the APC SMT1000 handles 70 more real watts of power than the CyberPower unit, and this tends to be conservatively rated by APC.

For home users, I'd say the CyberPower is a great choice that comes at a fraction of the cost of APC, Eaton, or Opti units, and delivers very acceptable performance. :)