UPS or stabilizer for PC

[sam_816]

Hi all,
I live in brazil these days. though i hardly see power outages(1-2 in a year), there is a lot of problem with voltage fluctuations both in terms of voltage drop and surge(more prominent)
Now i want to know if i will be ok with a stabilizer like this one or i should go for a UPS(something like this) only.
I have silverstone gold rated 750w PSU in my PC.
rest of the specs are in my signature.
please let me know what you think.
cheers.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Hi all,
I live in brazil these days. though i hardly see power outages(1-2 in a year), there is a lot of problem with voltage fluctuations both in terms of voltage drop and surge(more prominent)
Now i want to know if i will be ok with a stabilizer like this one or i should go for a UPS(something like this) only.
I have silverstone gold rated 750w PSU in my PC.
rest of the specs are in my signature.
please let me know what you think.
cheers.

I'm personally not clear in my understanding of a difference between a "stabilizer" and a UPS. But I'd say that a UPS would also "stabilize," while assuring that an outright power blackout would allow for an orderly shutdown of the system. A UPS will switch between AC power at the wall and battery outside a preset range of voltage -- which you can adjust. It will provide "clean" power -- I think the term is a "square-wave" -- either way. The switching is provided so quickly as to eliminate any discontinuity.

Surge suppressors are just not adequate, in my opinion. They may inhibit any damage to hardware from power surges, but they don't prevent your system from simply shutting off or restarting without risk of corrupting the OS system-disk or possibly other storage and data.

A 1400VA UPS should be adequate for approximate 0.6 * 1400 or ~840W of maximum power draw -- from the computer plus any other peripheral equipment connected to the UPS on the "battery" side. Most UPS's offer two banks of outlets: one supported by battery, the other offering only surge suppression. The latter set would be used for items like a printer, a network switch or router, etc. You'd probably want your monitor connected to the battery side, just so you can manually administer the computer during a blackout if you happen to be present at the time.

A UPS worth its salt will be compatible with Active PFC PSUs. It will have a communications link to the computer (often an RJ-45 "Ethernet" plug on one end, and USB on the other), and software which utilizes that link. Typically, a good UPS will show -- in this software -- that there's between a half-hour and an hour of battery charge to support continued computer operation. You might want to set the software to go through a Windows "shutdown" within 5 minutes or so after the blackout begins -- if the power doesn't come back on and switch off the battery support.

Completely draining the battery with these UPS devices will shorten the life of the battery(ies). YOu can usually expect to get 3 or more years out of the batteries otherwise. Replacement is pretty easy, but the batteries will usually cost about half the price of a complete UPS replacement.

It's a good investment. Call it "insurance." In fact, established UPS manufacturers offer warranty protection against equipment damage -- a guarantee that the UPS will work and eliminate that risk. If you buy insurance for your automobile, consider a UPS a sort of "insurance" for your computer investment.

Also, I think that "just a couple outright blackouts annually" is more than enough to justify using a battery-backup -- UPS. Maybe the difference between a "stabilizer" and a UPS depends on whether or not you want any risk at all to your data. Personally, I'd pay extra and buy a UPS.

Also, figure your computer is never likely to utilize the full wattage rating of its PSU. So you could adjust your choice to maybe a 1000VA or 1200VA-rated UPS. Just make sure you configure it to go through orderly PC shutdown within a few minutes of sustained blackout. And if you think your PSU's wattage rating is at least a few hundred watts above the "usual" computer power draw (most of our computers these days draw little more than 100W under idle or extremely light loading) -- you could spend even less and maybe utilize only an 800VA or 900VA unit. I find it too easy to pick a UPS based on the PSU rating, but I also know your computer is not likely to draw nearly that level of power under all or most conditions. Put it another way: if you're engrossed in heavy gaming at the time of a blackout, you'd merely stop gaming, and power consumption would drop below 200W -- with plenty of battery reserve left to go through an orderly shutdown and save the batteries.

Of course, if gaming results in a PC power draw of 500+W, you'd want the UPS to reliably supply that wattage for the time it takes to shut it down.

 

[sam_816]

Thank you so much @BonzaiDuck.

You post was very very informative. I was considering a voltage stabilizer since I do not keep any important documents on my PC. I only use it for gaming and to store pics/vids from my phone(I back all these up on a separate external hdd)

But I think I will invest in an UPS. Is there a software/app to know how much wattage my PC is consuming during different work/gaming loads? I have ordered a 144hz monitor and i am expecting my gpu to stretch its wings..

My psu is 80plus gold which means it should be able to produce 630-650 watts. I think 1200 VA should be enough. I have seen some models come with 'USB' as one of the features. I guess that is the one with active pfc compatibility. But I am not sure if any one offers warranty here. I will check for available options. Thanks again

 

[R0H1T]

If you're dealing with power surges, as well as voltage drops, you're better off adding a surge protector to the UPS i.e. surge protector goes into the power plug then UPS connects to the surge protector & then comes the PC. The UPS will not withstand too many (high) power surges & it's life will be diminished as well, trust me if you don't wanna fry the UPS & your PC better get a surge protector alongside the UPS.

 

[ViviTheMage]

If you have dirty power, just get a UPS that can handle those voltage fluctuations and power outages. When voltage drops, it flips to battery, voltage is normal, it flips off. The one I use is and APC BR1500G.

 

[bigboxes]

You need a UPS with AVR (automatic voltage regulation). The UPS will handle surge protection. With AVR your UPS will make sure that if you have voltage spikes and drops your computer should not know the difference. I've got them on all my computers and networking equipment. Remember, if you don't have your other peripherals on the battery back up then they won't work when the power goes down.

 

[R0H1T]

You need a UPS with AVR (automatic voltage regulation). The UPS will handle surge protection. With AVR your UPS will make sure that if you have voltage spikes and drops your computer should not know the difference. I've got them on all my computers and networking equipment. Remember, if you don't have your other peripherals on the battery back up then they won't work when the power goes down.

No UPS handles surge protection like a dedicated surge protector, at least not the low grade consumer ones. AVR is a given in a UPS but in case of a major power surge the first thing to go will be the UPS, the PC may or may not get damaged depending on how effectively that particular UPS handles it. There were a thread here discussing this just a while back, see that for reference.

 

[bigboxes]

No UPS handles surge protection like a dedicated surge protector, at least not the low grade consumer ones. AVR is a given in a UPS but in case of a major power surge the first thing to go will be the UPS, the PC may or may not get damaged depending on how effectively that particular UPS handles it. There were a thread here discussing this just a while back, see that for reference.

So, you're suggesting putting a dedicated surge protector in line? From my understanding that you are not supposed to do that with a UPS. Has the SOP changed?

 

[Red Squirrel]

I would try to look at an Online UPS. Most consumer UPSes arn't really AVR, or they arn't sensitive enough, or perhaps simply too trigger happy with switching back to AC so a serries of very fast fluctiations will send the relays going nuts back and forth instead of sticking to battery for a few seconds. This causes the computers to get very dirty power for long enough to lock up or reboot.

I find laserjet printers have tendancy to cause such brownouts which the UPS fails to protect from in some cases. Obviously the laserjet is not plugged in the UPS but it still causes a brown out on the circuit that the UPS is plugged into and if UPS does not trip fast enough the computer gets the brownout.

Since an Online UPS would probably be very expensive you can possibly build one yourself if you can find a high wattage (1000w+) 13.5v power supply and a deep cycle battery and a pure sine inverter. You want pure sine because it would be running on it all the time so probably less hard on the equipment.

 

[sam_816]

Oh god now I am truly confused

Not because of all the suggestions/inputs but all the descriptions here are in Portuguese and I suck at it.

@red squirrel care to expand on onlineUPS? Is it connected to the PC?

@everyone. If i post product features/specifications here will you suggest me which one should I choose? Sorry for so many noobish posts.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

So, you're suggesting putting a dedicated surge protector in line? From my understanding that you are not supposed to do that with a UPS. Has the SOP changed?

That's also my understanding, unless something has changed. Otherwise, I would've done something like that a long time ago.

Personally, I've never lost a UPS during a violent thunderstorm. Where else would one get extreme power spikes? I think we're talking about possibilities, probabilities -- likelihoods. I've had at least 12+ UPS systems since 1993 for the several computers under my "care." I think for the several smaller ones, we just opted to send them out to the recyclers after 5+ years and buy new ones. For those we have now, the battery replacements are serving us well.

I've lived in Northern Virginia, where the weather can occasionally be briefly severe, and I now live in So-Cal, where it isn't -- but there's the brown-out problem. I've only seen maybe one of our UPS's fail -- for whatever reason.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Online UPS may have been the wrong term, I should have said dual conversion.

Basically, instead of running straight off the AC power you do the following:

Take the AC power, convert it into a DC voltage that will float the batteries. (2.25v per cell is typical, a 12v battery has 6 cells, so 13.5 for a 12v system). Float voltage is basically the voltage at which the batteries will stay charged, without overcharging. In telecom 48v systems are used, so the float voltage is 54 volts. But I'd stick with 12v as it's easier to get stuff.

Then you take the 12-13v and connect to a battery, and also connect to an inverter.

Then you plug your computer in the inverter. Your stuff is now constantly running off the inverter, which has batteries as backup. If the AC power is cut or browns out the batteries are part of the circuit so they just keep powering the inverter. It will be completely seamless.

You can buy an actual dual conversion UPS (hard to find but they do make them) that does all of this internally, but they are more expensive, but easier to setup, and probably safer unless you know what you're doing.

 

[bigboxes]

For those we have now, the battery replacements are serving us well.

I just ordered replacement batteries for my wife's 4-year old APC BR1000G. The old one had leaked internally. I just cleaned up the leak with some paper towels. I'll recycle the old battery. Newegg had the best deal for an APC battery. Cheaper by $15 over APC.com and Amazon was twice as much. It's funny that my high value for power protection has rubbed off on my wife. She's parroting my concerns now.

 

[bigboxes]

I would try to look at an Online UPS. Most consumer UPSes arn't really AVR, or they arn't sensitive enough, or perhaps simply too trigger happy with switching back to AC so a serries of very fast fluctiations will send the relays going nuts back and forth instead of sticking to battery for a few seconds. This causes the computers to get very dirty power for long enough to lock up or reboot.

My CyberPower UPS has AVR and adjustable sensitivity. The onscreen software says that I have 40 minutes of run time (main rig) at my current usage. I've got two of them. One for my main rig and monitor. The other for my file server. I connect networking equipment, speakers, kvm switch and printer spread out across both of them. What good is your computer if you're network goes down? Not much. As I said above, the wife has the APC unit. I've had Belkin and APC as well in the past.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I just ordered replacement batteries for my wife's 4-year old APC BR1000G. The old one had leaked internally. I just cleaned up the leak with some paper towels. I'll recycle the old battery. Newegg had the best deal for an APC battery. Cheaper by $15 over APC.com and Amazon was twice as much. It's funny that my high value for power protection has rubbed off on my wife. She's parroting my concerns now.

I never thought one of those cells would leak, and I never personally saw it happen. I've ordered some units from these guys:

http://www.refurbups.com/

APC has some criticisms for similar outfits. Of course, they want you to buy battery replacements from APC.

I just think the discussion could be confusing the OP.

I have friends who are "mainstreamers." One of them bought a quad-core AMD gaming system back in 2011 to replace previous desktop, and I'd asked him about symptoms. The "previous desktop" wasn't that old. He was just using a surge protector. The varistors on those things die after a while.

I've "de-commissioned" PCs without giving them away as Hand-me-downs if they were at minimum six or seven years old. I've never had anything die on me except for a PSU outside its warranty, the occasional faulty ram module -- 15 years ago, a graphics card. And I'd seen what can happen without use of a UPS, so I just think it's false economy not to use one.

 

[sam_816]

sorry @red squirrel but i didn't get much of your 'online UPS' description. i think i should not try to. it s beyond my reach right now.
@all i am getting a used apc for a decent price. the reason why i am even considering is that the seller said that he provides UPSs to some company and this one was sent to him after the company upgraded to a bigger UPS.
is it a good idea? how can i test it? the seller is providing 6 months of warranty from his side.
besides the HW in my sign i have 1 200mm fan, 2 140mm fans and one 120 mm fan installed in the case. I will be adding an ssd soon. will 1200av be enough?

 

[westom]

the reason why i am even considering is that the seller said that he provides UPSs to some company and this one was sent to him after the company upgraded to a bigger UPS.(

First define the problem. Incandescent bulbs can dim to 40% intensity. Even voltage that low is perfectly fine for any properly designed computer. How often is your voltage varying that much?

Surges that do damage can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does the UPS claim to absorb? Hundreds? IOW near zero joules is enough to claim surge protection to naïve consumers. But if surges are a concern, then something completely different (and also called a surge protector) must be located where AC power enters the building. Only this other device (also called a surge protector) does protection from typically destructive surges.

Third concern is when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 40% intensity. That is what a UPS is for. Temporary and dirty power so that unsaved data can be saved. UPS does mostly nothing to protect hardware. That protection must already be inside the PSU.

What other anomaly concerns you?

 

[sam_816]

First define the problem. Incandescent bulbs can dim to 40% intensity. Even voltage that low is perfectly fine for any properly designed computer. How often is your voltage varying that much?

last time that happened was about a year and a half..

Surges that do damage can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does the UPS claim to absorb? Hundreds? IOW near zero joules is enough to claim surge protection to naïve consumers. But if surges are a concern, then something completely different (and also called a surge protector) must be located where AC power enters the building. Only this other device (also called a surge protector) does protection from typically destructive surges.

this is a major concern. Where I live weather changes without warning and rains with a lot of lightening. In fact my state is notorious for lightening strikes. There are many surge protectors available to protect electronics and electrical devices.

http://m.hardplus.com.br/mobile/produto.php?ID=5143&GRUPO=011



There are some stabilizers available too. Like

http://m.hardplus.com.br/mobile/produto.php?ID=5069&GRUPO=011

But I have never understood how they work.

I was thinking of putting one of these surge protectors between the ups and the mains.

Third concern is when voltage drops so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 40% intensity. That is what a UPS is for. Temporary and dirty power so that unsaved data can be saved. UPS does mostly nothing to protect hardware. That protection must already be inside the PSU.





What other anomaly concerns you?

Now this is something that's very different from what others have posted. And I can't seem to wrap my head around it. Ups is a big market and they make so many claims and even back then up with free insurance. I never do any office related work on my PC. It is only for gaming and saving pics/videos. On top of everything I take backups every 2 weeks. According to what you have written, ups is kinda useless for me. :|

I really don't know what to do.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

last time that happened was about a year and a half..





this is a major concern. Where I live weather changes without warning and rains with a lot of lightening. In fact my state is notorious for lightening strikes. There are many surge protectors available to protect electronics and electrical devices.

http://m.hardplus.com.br/mobile/produto.php?ID=5143&GRUPO=011



There are some stabilizers available too. Like

http://m.hardplus.com.br/mobile/produto.php?ID=5069&GRUPO=011

But I have never understood how they work.

I was thinking of putting one of these surge protectors between the ups and the mains.




Now this is something that's very different from what others have posted. And I can't seem to wrap my head around it. Ups is a big market and they make so many claims and even back then up with free insurance. I never do any office related work on my PC. It is only for gaming and saving pics/videos. On top of everything I take backups every 2 weeks. According to what you have written, ups is kinda useless for me. :|

I really don't know what to do.

I would say, if voltage SPIKES are a major concern, get the device that connects to your household main or near the circuit-breakers.

As for outages in general and brown-outs, the UPS will handle power-loss, and it should handle surges, even limited as other posters assert. You can adjust the lower and upper bounds of voltage tolerance in the UPS software.

ABOUT THE USED APC 1200VA unit you mentioned. Likely, that is a great idea. They're actually covering your purchase against failure for six months? No reason the used system shouldn't last as long. If it had in ANY WAY been damaged the way some here have asserted from excessive voltage spikes/surges, six months should be long enough to show it. At most, you'd only want to replace the batteries.

The APC system and its software will do a SELF_TEST. This should show whether the batteries are still serviceable, or anything else.

That's my view. I don't have the detailed tech-expertise as others here assert for themselves, but I've had a long-standing experience with these devices. And I DO NOT LIKE to see ANY of my systems endure "unannounced" or irregular shutdowns, BSODs, freezes or anything of that sort.

 

[Cerb]

I really don't know what to do.

Eat salt. Lots of it, rather than just a few grains. There's a grain of truth, there, well, actually a few, but Westom generally ignores anything less stressful to your electronics than a lightning strike, and that if it doesn't fry something immediately, all is fine.

 

[sam_816]

@BonzaiDuck I think I will go to their office/facility and see the condition of the UPS with my own eyes. Maybe ask them to hook it up to a PC and run diagnostics.

Will get surge protector too.

Another thing I came across today is that my city's electricity deptt. Covers the claims(after investigation) if electric appliances get damaged during lightening strikes.

@cerb I see what you are trying to say. I am not disregarding or blindly following any of the posts here. I think everyone has contributed to my knowledge and I appreciate that.

 

[westom]

Will get surge protector too.

Two completely different devices are both called surge protectors? Which one will you obtain?

A protector adjacent to electronics can only block or absorb that energy. How does its 2 centimeter part block what three miles of sky cannot? How does its hundreds of joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules.

Facilities that cannot have damage (even 100 years ago) use another and completey different device called a surge protector. A homeowner can earth one for about $1` per protected appliance. Because surges are never averted in some magic box next to the appliance. A surge must connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth BEFORE entering.

Those hardplus items do not claim to protect from destructive surges. And do not have the always required earth connection. Therefore cannot protect from typically destructive surges.

How much is a surge protector sold in retail stores? $25 per? $90 per protected appliance? It does not even claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge. A near zero surge already made irrelevant by design standards that existed long before PCs existed.

Never make a decision based in something subjective - ie surge protector. Useful recommendations come with perspective - ie numbers. Recommendations without numbers (and most recommendations have no numbers) are suspect. Where do hundreds of thosuands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

BTW, same applies to so many who worry about brownouts without numbers. Acceptable voltage for any electronics means incandescent bulbs can dim to 50% intensity. A voltage so low as to be potentially harmful to motorized appliances and perfectly good for all electronics.

 

[piasabird]

Incoming current from the power lines to the house are normally surge protected before the current enters the house. However, sometimes current enters sensitive electrical components through antenna wires, Networking and Phone lines as well.

There is another technique for grounding outlets by grounding them to a metal water pipe. This was common place 30 years ago. However, much new construction may not have Iron sewer lines that extend into the ground, or copper supply lines. Outlets may or may not be grounded. This is why the incoming power should be grounded near where the power lines or mains enter the structure. Also a Fuse Box may also e grounded.

When I was in the Army we started using computers with batch processing for admin purposes. When they did this one requirement was a clean power tap from the fuse box to the computer terminal. Ideally a power supply should be plugged into a grounded outlet. Some older buildings have very limited use of grounded outlets. Inside a house or an apartment, something like a refrigerator or a furnace fan starting up could cause a power spike. Usually sources of heavy draws of power are either directly connected or on an isolated power circuit. Maybe plugging in a computer to a kitchen plug may not be such a good idea.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Incoming current from the power lines to the house are normally surge protected before the current enters the house. However, sometimes current enters sensitive electrical components through antenna wires, Networking and Phone lines as well.

There is another technique for grounding outlets by grounding them to a metal water pipe. This was common place 30 years ago. However, much new construction may not have Iron sewer lines that extend into the ground, or copper supply lines. Outlets may or may not be grounded. This is why the incoming power should be grounded near where the power lines or mains enter the structure. Also a Fuse Box may also e grounded.

When I was in the Army we started using computers with batch processing for admin purposes. When they did this one requirement was a clean power tap from the fuse box to the computer terminal. Ideally a power supply should be plugged into a grounded outlet. Some older buildings have very limited use of grounded outlets. Inside a house or an apartment, something like a refrigerator or a furnace fan starting up could cause a power spike. Usually sources of heavy draws of power are either directly connected or on an isolated power circuit. Maybe plugging in a computer to a kitchen plug may not be such a good idea.

That all makes sense. I remember back in the early '80s when I first started experimenting with "micro-computers." I had an old refrigerator in the apartment, and every time it would cut on, the computer would reset.

Now, my only interest in refrigerators is in making noise comparisons to my computers. And freezing the guacamole. Which reminds me -- today I have to make my special salsa, or the tomatoes will get too ripe.