UPS-backed wall outlet

[herm0016]

So what's the idea there? The inlet on the wall near the UPS, and it would go from UPS outlet to wall inlet? And then use standard nomex between the inlet socket and the wall outlet that the TV connects into?

I mean it's gotta be that way, right? Having an exposed male inlet socket that's hot/live... sounds like quite the bad idea. 😉

Its not hot. GD you people are dense. the male socket on the wall could never be hot, as there is nowhere that that circuit connect to anything but a place to plug in a load.

the male socket is just there to make it all code. you cant have exposed romex hanging out of a wall. you can have a male socket labeled UPS and an outlet on the other side labeled UPS.

Destrekor: nomex is fireproof fabric, used in things like gloves and flight suits. ROMEX is the jacketed wire in your walls. you would use a regular old extension cord to go from the ups to the male plug on the wall.

all of you are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Greenman]

Its not hot. GD you people are dense. the male socket on the wall could never be hot, as there is nowhere that that circuit connect to anything but a place to plug in a load.

the male socket is just there to make it all code. you cant have exposed romex hanging out of a wall. you can have a male socket labeled UPS and an outlet on the other side labeled UPS.

Destrekor: nomex is fireproof fabric, used in things like gloves and flight suits. ROMEX is the jacketed wire in your walls. you would use a regular old extension cord to go from the ups to the male plug on the wall.

all of you are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

Actually, the OP is making it more complicated than it needs to be. In residential settings, the UPS is a device that's placed at the point of use, it's an appliance. The OP wants to move that appliance away from the point of use and have delivery through his household electrical system, that's not a feature designed for residential use because it's a fixed use outlet. If you move your TV the ups becomes useless.

 

[jtworldwide3]

Power bridge is how i did it with my projector.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=4652

wired with Romex in-between so that you can run it legally through the walls and floor.


**edit** just reread what you already did. I think having another one of those boxes in the only way to do it and be legal.

 

[destrekor]

Its not hot. GD you people are dense. the male socket on the wall could never be hot, as there is nowhere that that circuit connect to anything but a place to plug in a load.

the male socket is just there to make it all code. you cant have exposed romex hanging out of a wall. you can have a male socket labeled UPS and an outlet on the other side labeled UPS.

Destrekor: nomex is fireproof fabric, used in things like gloves and flight suits. ROMEX is the jacketed wire in your walls. you would use a regular old extension cord to go from the ups to the male plug on the wall.

all of you are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

Whoops, that's a slip, definitely meant romex haha

And it's not about being dense, I literally asked a question. First people encourage others to ask questions to make sure things are done right, and then they punish those who dare ask questions to prevent accidents or injury. My bad yo.

I basically asked which side of the circuit that male connector would be on. In a round about way, you answered that it'd be on the device side and not hot when a cord isn't plugged into it. Thanks. I was merely confirming suspicions instead of assuming.

Actually, the OP is making it more complicated than it needs to be. In residential settings, the UPS is a device that's placed at the point of use, it's an appliance. The OP wants to move that appliance away from the point of use and have delivery through his household electrical system, that's not a feature designed for residential use because it's a fixed use outlet. If you move your TV the ups becomes useless.

I'm not having it delivered through the electrical system. It's not getting connected to entire circuits. Think of this as a way to power more than one network/server rack from a single UPS. It can't be everywhere, it's going to reside in one rack and neighboring racks will have their own PDUs which then reach back to the UPS.

I'm merely being forced to have some distance between the two racks. And the TV and subwoofer (though I may not put that on battery backup, a minor concession if I did that), simply have a 1/4" board separating them from the rest of the gear.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Is there anything like this that's actually pre-made? I'm not opposed to wiring something myself but for this I'd prefer if it was available retail.

a 240V circuit, which will power the homelab but due to a potential UPS's size and capability, I could still connect the 120V plasma to it. Everything else would plug into the UPS via PDUs, pretty typical there (and surprisingly the majority of my equipment is capable of either voltage).

Thoughts?

Looking at the article you linked, the guy basically built himself nothing more than a switched extension cord with two outlets. You appear to have zeroed in on the wall plate and think it would be cool to have a switched wall outlet with a plug hanging out of the wall somewhere that you could plug in to something.

Can't imagine anyone making a finished product like that commercially available. You can buy switched extension cords (which sure makes you wonder why anyone would go to the bother of DIY).

I've got a project in mind, and part of it also starts with having a electrician buddy help wire up

Electrician buddy? Have him wire one up for you, if he's willing.

 

[Mike64]

I mentioned the breaker board as an illustrative reference. Normal in-wall electrical circuits terminate at breaker boards. To do what you want while staying even marginally "similar to code" would require using cable (like Romex) rated for in-wall use, but you would be terminating it at a socket, rather than at a breaker. Flexible extension-cord-type cords are rarely if ever rated for in-wall use, wherever you put them, or wherever you connect them.

If you're OK with an overall circuit that doesn't meet any aspect of code requirements, as you seem to be, why don't you just make one of the things in the OP yourself? A pre-built version wouldn't be any safer, nor bring the whole kludge any closer to code compliance. Since the box will be "in" the wall, it's not like you're going to be looking at anything but the cord and plug anyway. And if that's the real issue here - that you want a "nice" looking power cord - just get something like one of these: Hanvex 3 Prong AC Power Cord, Stanley 31939 Grounded 3-Wire - 9ft. Replacement Cord, etc., or cut the socket end off a heavy-duty extension cord and use that?

Can't imagine anyone making a finished product like that commercially available.

Yes, electrical parts manufacturers usually don't make parts, the only use for which would violate any existing electrical code...😉 And for that matter, I have trouble imagining a good, much less licensed, electrician being willing to install a non-code compliant circuit in someone else's home, even if that person swears on a 3-foot stack of <scripture of their choice> that they'll never sue him if the house burns down. Though that's probably somewhat less unlikely than being able to find a commercial version of the thing in the OP...

 

[destrekor]

I mentioned the breaker board as an illustrative reference. Normal in-wall electrical circuits terminate at breaker boards. To do what you want while staying even marginally "similar to code" would require using cable (like Romex) rated for in-wall use, but you would be terminating it at a socket, rather than at a breaker. Flexible extension-cord-type cords are rarely if ever rated for in-wall use, wherever you put them, or wherever you connect them.

If you're OK with an overall circuit that doesn't meet any aspect of code requirements, as you seem to be, why don't you just make one of the things in the OP yourself? A pre-built version wouldn't be any safer, nor bring the whole kludge any closer to code compliance. Since the box will be "in" the wall, it's not like you're going to be looking at anything but the cord and plug anyway. And if that's the real issue here - that you want a "nice" looking power cord - just get something like one of these: Hanvex 3 Prong AC Power Cord, Stanley 31939 Grounded 3-Wire - 9ft. Replacement Cord, etc., or cut the socket end off a heavy-duty extension cord and use that?

Yes, electrical parts manufacturers usually don't make parts, the only use for which would violate any existing electrical code...😉 And for that matter, I have trouble imagining a good, much less licensed, electrician being willing to install a non-code compliant circuit in someone else's home, even if that person swears on a 3-foot stack of <scripture of their choice> that they'll never sue him if the house burns down. Though that's probably somewhat less unlikely than being able to find a commercial version of the thing in the OP...

Oh I definitely understood this isn't the best idea. I'm thinking perhaps the type I already have, which acts as an in-wall extension to hide wire for the wall-mounted TV, (with romex between the outlets, and male type on bottom), would still do the trick. I could perhaps still go with a dedicated battery backup unit in the corner, that's not the ugliest thing in the world. This isn't the perfect setup to allow for a truly zero visible cord setup, just the vast majority I was able to do that with. One small backup with two cords plugged into it, and then one cord into the wall - that's hardly going to disrupt the look I have going. It'll be vastly improved over what I currently have, as the AV stack is still plainly wired up in the corner, with intent for that stack to move behind the wall with a dark glass or mesh door. No matter what that setup will be infinitely superior in overall appearance even with a few cords still there.

But I should hopefully have said buddy over soon, his opinion after seeing what I have and want to do will go a long way toward satisfying my curiosity about just what is and isn't -- or shouldn't be -- a good option.


Sometimes I get incredibly stuck on something and stubborn so, admittedly, I am probably barking up the wrong tree with this thread. Oh well. So it goes.


edit:
And through it all, there's a distinct possibility I won't be able to get this 4 or 5 kVA UPS. The individual who currently has it is looking into whether he can make use of it after all or not. He may find an affordable solution and decide to keep the monstrosity (400+ pounds with the batteries). We'll see - my plans may completely fall apart.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Why not just do the inlet method as suggested? That, or the one I suggested seems like it would be the best way. Inlet might be better as you don't have a "permanent" dangling cord but rather just the inlet, then you plug a short extension cord.

Might do that myself actually when I upgrade my UPS to a 48v dual conversion setup. I would have a couple outlets around the house for the more critical/sensitive load and they would run on inverter all the time. Idealy you'd want such outlets to be on a separate inverter as the server equipment in case someone decides to plug a huge inductive load or something and it causes a temporary brownout. I figure 2000w for both PDUs and then maybe 4000w for the rest of the house (selective loads).

 

[destrekor]

Why not just do the inlet method as suggested? That, or the one I suggested seems like it would be the best way. Inlet might be better as you don't have a "permanent" dangling cord but rather just the inlet, then you plug a short extension cord.

Might do that myself actually when I upgrade my UPS to a 48v dual conversion setup. I would have a couple outlets around the house for the more critical/sensitive load and they would run on inverter all the time. Idealy you'd want such outlets to be on a separate inverter as the server equipment in case someone decides to plug a huge inductive load or something and it causes a temporary brownout. I figure 2000w for both PDUs and then maybe 4000w for the rest of the house (selective loads).

What would be the double-conversion setup you had in mind? And when you say that, do you mean that the AC power is always converted to DC first, regardless of battery charge and power condition, and then converts back to AC as a pure sine wave? I've seen mention of pure sine wave output from inverter/charger units, but also mention of a minor changeover time as the automatic switch flips - which to me implies standby and not double-conversion.

 

[Red Squirrel]

What would be the double-conversion setup you had in mind? And when you say that, do you mean that the AC power is always converted to DC first, regardless of battery charge and power condition, and then converts back to AC as a pure sine wave? I've seen mention of pure sine wave output from inverter/charger units, but also mention of a minor changeover time as the automatic switch flips - which to me implies standby and not double-conversion.

Yep basically you have rectifiers (AC-DC psus) that convert line voltage to about 54 volts DC. It's the voltage required to float a 48v nominal bank of batteries. Then on the same DC bus, you have your batteries and loads. If power is cut to rectifiers the batteries naturally take over load. there is zero interruption of DC supply. In telecom, all the equipment runs directly off the DC, but in the case of a house you would just have a couple inverters or one large redundant one. The idea is that you have a clean continuous pure sine wave that is never interrupted at all. I've had issues with regular UPSes where if you get a very dirty power outage that is not a clean cut, it might not trip fast enough. I lost my file server twice because of that.

The challenge is this equipment is very hard to find new and even used, since it's not typical to have in a house, so I need to learn more about SMPS design and I'll just build my own converters. All the major brands like Alpha, Eaton, Eltek etc don't really sell to individuals or even have any for sale on their site. What I will probably do is incorporate it as a solar system, so the rectifiers will only really charge when solar is not producing or when the inverters call for more than what solar can provide. In an off grid setup, the rectifiers would be on a generator that starts up if the battery voltage gets too low. The nice thing with a setup of this nature is that it's very modular.

 

[herm0016]

I mentioned the breaker board as an illustrative reference. Normal in-wall electrical circuits terminate at breaker boards. To do what you want while staying even marginally "similar to code" would require using cable (like Romex) rated for in-wall use, but you would be terminating it at a socket, rather than at a breaker. Flexible extension-cord-type cords are rarely if ever rated for in-wall use, wherever you put them, or wherever you connect them.
Yes, electrical parts manufacturers usually don't make parts, the only use for which would violate any existing electrical code...😉

as long as you use things like i posted, have cover plates and use Romex between them, it is to code. i looked it up in my Bro. in laws 2015 IRC book and asked him about it.

 

[destrekor]

as long as you use things like i posted, have cover plates and use Romex between them, it is to code. i looked it up in my Bro. in laws 2015 IRC book and asked him about it.

Good to know that is to code, as I already use one of those and expected it was perfectly safe but may or may not be something to worry about being a code violation down the road.

The real curiosity for the power situation and this wall is due to its construction.

It's a bare wall, ~1/4" plywood/paneling. Not quite "in wall." As you can imagine, it just seems unnecessary to have an outlet on the other side, some romex, and then another socket facing the utility room.

OK, new idea: is there such an idea, that meets code, that resembles a single, probably double-wide electrical box, with an outlet on one side, inlet on the other side? No exposed wire hanging outside, then just a single box that I'd just connect cords to on both sides of the wall. I imagine wiring something like that together is dead simple, but... to code? Or skip the wiring and instead there's a single socket-style adapter, female on one side with a wallplate, and then male on the other side? Is that code? Or is trending too far toward it being a standard extension as there is no romex between the two ends where it connects to the wall?

Making it too complicated I'm sure, just want to try and meet code with any of my projects so resale doesn't carry any costs fixing my "customizations."

 

[nhathuoconline]

^ There's no consumer demand so even if you found one it would probably be an obscenely expensive niche item. Make your own then it'll be exactly how you want it, right down to the color of the outlets.