Upgrading, need help

morrisbj

Senior member
Nov 10, 2005
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I am looking to upgrade my system, but I'm very limited on money. I can probably stretch my budget to about $300 right now, and need to know the most important place (or places) to upgrade. I can't believe it, but this system can't even run Civilization 4 (takes about 5 minutes to load a new game, wait a full minute between turns).

So here are the basics.

AthlonXP 2700+
MSI KT4 Ultra Motherboard
512mb DDR333 RAM
MSI GeForce 5200fx AGP 8x 128mb

I'm just looking for the best short term solution, not terribly concerned with further upgradability. Once I've got some more income coming in, I'll be building a new system, but I need to fix this one for now.
 

Edzard

Senior member
Jul 23, 2003
504
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Your processor, memory, and video card meet or exceed the "Recommended System Requirements" for this game. Note that implicit in the memory specs for this board according to MSI's Taiwan website, you have already maxed out the memory for your board at 512MB despite the fact that the KT400 chipset can theoretically run 3GB of memory. Your video card is fairly lame by today's standards but you are complaining about load times - not frame rates. I recommend you do the following: (1) check your system tray to see if you are loading unnecessary programs, therefore wasting memory [also do a CTRL-ALT-DEL and see what is running and how much memory is being used]; (2) determine if your hard drive has at least 15-20% free space; (3) check your system for malware (viruses, trojans, etc. including adware); (4) clean up and defrag your hard drive (HD) [you may be able to free up significant HD space by using cleanup to delete dated/unneeded system restore files]; (5) install the game so that it runs off the hard drive as much as possible. Also, in your next post, please disclose what OS (Windows 2000 or XP) you are running, complete with what service packs have been installed. And if any of my suggestions proves to be a "magic bullet" please divulge that as well. Good luck.....
 

Edzard

Senior member
Jul 23, 2003
504
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More specifics regarding my earlier statement: "Note that implicit in the memory specs for this board according to MSI's Taiwan website, you have already maxed out the memory for your board at 512MB despite the fact that the KT400 chipset can theoretically run 3GB of memory." Refer to the table in the "Main Memory" section for this board at http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=356 and note the combinations of "Size" and "Maximum Number of DIMMs".
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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I've seen Edzard link to MSI's site. However, I've a KT3 Ultra mobo. So, I think the KT4's limitation is really concerning the number of PC3200 (at 200/400mhz) dimms. You don't need, nor should, run your ram any faster than 166/333mhz. For best performance, you want your ram & cpu "insynch" (the same speed)

My manual says I can use up to 1gig of PC2700 in each slot. I suspect your will do the same. Might wanna google up more info on it, or go to an MSI forums and search.

Having said that, My suggestion is to upgrade to 2 x 512MB's of ram. Makes a BIG difference in my game benchies. Affects game loading/reloading times and all around "smoothness" when navigating around the in-game menu's. Doesn't affect frames-per-second.

The ram can prolly be had for less than $80 or $90.

Put the best gfx card in there you can afford. Get even a used 6800GT with 256MB of vid ram if possible. You're CPU won't bottleneck it. I know, I've played Doom 3 FarCry etc with my CPU set back to Barton 2500 speeds and the 6800GT I have. BTW, not much, if any, reason to get 256MB on a weaker card than the 6800GT. They can't make use of it.

If you can do those 2 upgrades, you'll feel like your rig is "smokin". No lie.

Fern
 

morrisbj

Senior member
Nov 10, 2005
363
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Originally posted by: Edzard
Your processor, memory, and video card meet or exceed the "Recommended System Requirements" for this game. Note that implicit in the memory specs for this board according to MSI's Taiwan website, you have already maxed out the memory for your board at 512MB despite the fact that the KT400 chipset can theoretically run 3GB of memory. Your video card is fairly lame by today's standards but you are complaining about load times - not frame rates. I recommend you do the following: (1) check your system tray to see if you are loading unnecessary programs, therefore wasting memory [also do a CTRL-ALT-DEL and see what is running and how much memory is being used]; (2) determine if your hard drive has at least 15-20% free space; (3) check your system for malware (viruses, trojans, etc. including adware); (4) clean up and defrag your hard drive (HD) [you may be able to free up significant HD space by using cleanup to delete dated/unneeded system restore files]; (5) install the game so that it runs off the hard drive as much as possible. Also, in your next post, please disclose what OS (Windows 2000 or XP) you are running, complete with what service packs have been installed. And if any of my suggestions proves to be a "magic bullet" please divulge that as well. Good luck.....

From your list, I'll have to check into an install option to put more info on the hard drive. As for OS, I'm operating XP Home SP2

 

Edzard

Senior member
Jul 23, 2003
504
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FYI, within the last week I spent at least 20 hours working on a PC having the FISR flavor of the MSI KT4 Ultra motherboard. The PC was severely infested with malware, to the extent that I felt it necessary to low-level format the hard drive, flash the BIOS (just in case it had become infested as well), and re-load the XP Home OS from scratch (Avast detected at least 48 viruses and trojans, one of which it couldn't kill; Ad-Aware found over 800 tracking cookies). The processor on that system was an XP2000+ running at 1.67GHz (133MHz main system bus speed) and the system had a single 256MB memory module, a Samsung K4H560838D-TCC4 (PC3200 - frequency of 200MHz [400MHz DDR]).

My comment about your having maxed out your memory may very well have been an error since you aren't running PC3200 memory, and as Fern astutely observed, the table I pointed out was indeed specific to PC3200 memory. A likely blunder on my part.

However, at least with respect to the system I worked on, I must take exception with Fern's statement that "For best performance, you want your ram & cpu "insynch" (the same speed)." Until a few days ago, I would have resoundingly agreed with that statement. But in addition to the malware problem, the KT4 Ultra PC I worked on had a stability problem - after the rebuild it would not get through an Avast virus scan (fairly CPU/memory intensive) without a spontaneous re-boot. The owner had also noted the same phenomenon - spontaneous re-boots on occasion. The solution to the problem actually turned out to be to run the memory asynchronously from the main system bus - I left the main system bus at stock 133MHz but increased the frequency of the memory bus from 133MHz to 166MHz (333MHz DDR) and tightened the memory timings (I learned this trick from a post on the internet). For emphasis, that is the ONLY change I made and that solved the problem (was able to do two complete Avast scans and a run through 3DMark 2001SE benchmark and demo without any problems and the system ran flawlessly for another 6 hours afterwards). Conclusion: in this particular case, at 266MHz (DDR) the 400MHz (DDR) memory was underclocked sufficently enough to cause a stability problem. First time I've seen this happen, but it is well known that timing is more critical for DDR than for the older SDRAM.

Since your XP2700 processor uses a main system bus of 166MHz, do check your BIOS setup and make sure that (1) you haven't inadvertently set the bus speed for the processor to less than 166MHz and (2) the memory frequency is set at 333MHz DDR and NOT 266MHz DDR. These scenarios are admittedly very unlikely but it won't hurt to check.

If you feel compelled to spend money, then my recommendation is to first add memory (try to match your existing memory module/modules in the process) and see what happens. BUT I also submit that my five recommendations do make sense and if you don't have to spend money to solve the problem, why spend money on a system you plan to discard later (a used GeForce 6800GT video card is going to cost well over 100 bucks and if your future system's motherboard exclusively uses PCI-Express [and therefore has no AGP slot], the 6800GT won't be usable in that system)?

I'd be willing to bet that "thescreensavers" and Fern would agree that tweaking a system, without spending money, can make a significant difference in its performance (especially Fern, who is likely overclocking his processor to at least 2.3GHz or more). For example, I've seen a badly fragmented hard drive degrade system performance by about 30 percent. I've seen malware absolutely RUIN a system's performance. It is well known that if you load a disk drive (and this applies to any given partition on a disk drive) beyond about 80-85% of its capacity, system performance will be degraded. And if your game is mostly running off your DVD drive, then it is very likely that more memory and a faster video card won't help much since the DVD drive will still be substantially the rate-determing process. Remember - your system not only meets the minimum requirements for Civilization 4, it meets the RECOMMENDED hardware requirements. That's why I keep thinking this is a tuning problem. One other thought - you might check to see if SP2 somehow negatively impacts the performance of this specific game (not likely, but perhaps possible). Finally, you may want to consider updating your BIOS if it is not current, but use extreme caution in doing so since there are at least 4 versions of this board.

Edzard




 

morrisbj

Senior member
Nov 10, 2005
363
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Well, I tried twice to write a response, but apparently Avast didn't want to let me stay logged in, so this time I'm just going to give the very short and sweet.

XP installed fresh about a week ago
Drive fully formatted at the same time
Have newest drivers and/or bios for all hardware
Ran Avast and EZantivirus - no viruses
Ran Adaware and PestPatrol - 10 tracking cookies, all deleted
Checked BIOS - all set up properly
Reinstalled game, no options for install, only location
HD was 7% fragmented, went ahead and ran defrag anyway, now 0%
Adjusted RAM timings

All this produced minimal gains, so I decided I'd attempt to overclock. MOBO won't even accept bus set at 167. To put it lightly, I'm fed up with MSI products. I've had trouble with their vidcards in the past, and to be honest, I've never been happy with this MOBO, but a friend who knew a hell of a lot more than me at the time said this KT4Ultra was one of the best around. Like the D-bracket, that is about all.

So, I've spent about $150 of my budget. New nForce2 MOBO and 1gig PC3200 ram. Hopefully this be enough. If not, what 8x AGP card is my best bet for $150 or so?

Oh, and I noticed you mentioned framerates... they've been a problem since I got the 5200 as a budget replacement for a Ti4200, but I don't play games where it is unbearable. I'm a big fan of strategy games (RTS and turn), and I play very few real graphics intensive games, although being able to at least use medium graphics settings would be nice.
 

Edzard

Senior member
Jul 23, 2003
504
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morrisbj -

In the future, I suggest that when you are having a problem: (1) you post as much information and as detailed information about the problem and your attempts to solve it as possible. For example, it would have been very helpful (for those trying to assist you) to have had the information included in your LAST post included in your FIRST post; (2) you post your problem in the most applicable forum possible - for example your questions might have been better directed to the "Software - Apps, Programming and Games" forum since another gamer having the same motherboard as yours might have experienced, and conquered, the same problem as you are having; (3) you exercise a bit more patience while waiting for assistence from others on AnandTech. For example the upgrade suggestions made by "quackerww" would have enabled you to possibly solve your problem (more on that below) while simultaneously eliminating most of the expense of a future system. Quackerww's recommendation would have taken you to a 64-bit platform having the option of using either an AGP or PCI-Express video card. Here is a review of the chipset that is used on the motherboard quackerww recommended:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2471&p=6

That chipset, which I frankly was unaware of until reading quackerww's post and doing some investigating, should not be ignored - in fact since you are spending money, you might want to alter your order (if you do, check the PC3200 memory for compatibility with the ASROCK board in the process). In case you don't already know this, ASROCK is reputed to be afilliated with ASUS and ASUS motherboards have been traditionally known for their quality - I've used 20+ of their boards with only one disappointment. A friend of mine has an XP2400+ running on an ASROCK board (SIS chipset, but apparently a good one) and he seems to be very satisfied with it. That is the extent of my "semi-direct" experience with ASROCK.

My own approach to your problem, from the start, has been to focus on trying to help to solve the problem without spending any money whatsoever since you are on a limited budget. So here's my final attempt.....

Knowing what I know now it seems to me that this is an I/O related problem. I'm assuming (1) that when you re-built your OS you loaded the VIA 4-in-one drivers (2) that you aren't running some ancient 4400RPM hard drive with a 256MB memory buffer (3) that whatever partion you loaded the game has adequate free space (4) you aren't running an OLD low-speed DVD and (5) the memory management system, including virtual memory, or something else in your OS is not fouled up.

VIA, the maker of the KT400 chipset on your motherboard is fairly well known for producing comparatively inferior southbridges - at least that is my impression (and in fact the one disappointing ASUS board I've directly experienced had a VIA chipset - I didn't buy the blooming thing, someone gave it to me). Generally it is the southbridge chip that handles I/O (input/output, including reads/writes to IDE devices such as hard drives and optical drives such as CDs and DVDs [hope I'm not insulting you]), and it is here that VIA has a generally less than stellar rap. So it might make sense for you to download a recent copy SIS Sandra (it is free) and run the "drives benchmark" on your hard drive. If the score produced by your system is inferior then maybe we've narrowed the problem to the IDE (or SATA) subsystem - perhaps a BIOS or a driver issue.

If the hard drive produces a reasonable score, then it makes sense to take a hard look at your DVD drive. Is it in the master position (at the very end of an IDE cable), and jumpered as master? If it is running as a slave to another device then by all means set it up as the master device on the cable it is on and test your gaming performance with that configuration. Wouldn't hurt to set it up as the ONLY device (of course as master) on a given cable and see what happens. If that produces a pleasant surprise, then if you need to run another optical device on that cable then set that other device as slave and see what happens.

One other item - your processor. You stated "MOBO won't even accept bus set at 167." To the best of my memory, when the Athlon XP processor hit the 2700+ rating, the bus speed jumped from 133 to 166MHz. Thus, without overclocking, you should be able to run your system using a 166MHz main/front-side bus speed and a 333MHz (DDR) memory speed. If you aren't able to obtain these setting on your own, then I suggest you have your "geekiest" friend review your BIOS settings - maybe you have missed something. But if your processor isn't an XP2700+, then all bets are off.

With regard to a video card upgrade for $150, the 6600GT might be a good one (Leadtek MAY be the brand to buy) - either that or an equivalent from ATI. I must qualify my recommendation by stating that I haven't kept fully up to date on computer hardware, including graphics cards.

Good luck.

 

morrisbj

Senior member
Nov 10, 2005
363
0
0
Originally posted by: Edzard

One other item - your processor. You stated "MOBO won't even accept bus set at 167." To the best of my memory, when the Athlon XP processor hit the 2700+ rating, the bus speed jumped from 133 to 166MHz. Thus, without overclocking, you should be able to run your system using a 166MHz main/front-side bus speed and a 333MHz (DDR) memory speed. If you aren't able to obtain these setting on your own, then I suggest you have your "geekiest" friend review your BIOS settings - maybe you have missed something. But if your processor isn't an XP2700+, then all bets are off.

First, thanks for a little heads up on posting in these forums here. I'm entirely unfamiliar with it and will try to post in a more acceptable forum next time. As to waiting longer, yeah I probably could (and should) have, but I'd already been struggling with the game for a couple weeks, and had been unsuccessful in finding help there. Think I picked up a defective motherboard (not to mention cheap). More on that problem here though.

As what I quoted above however, I probably wasn't clear enough and don't entirely understand how to do what I want to. I have an XP2700+ for sure, and setting the main bus to 166 attains the proper result, my processor running at 2.167ghz. For some reason, there is no separate adjustment in the BIOS for my board to adjust the memory bus, which may be where my problem is coming from.

I want to overclock the CPU, which I thought was done by increasing the bus speed. Am on wrong on that? Should I attempt to change the multiplier instead?
 

Edzard

Senior member
Jul 23, 2003
504
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I did an advanced Google search for "all the words" Athlon XP in combination with "with the exact phrase" Civilization 4 and look what I found:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135231

Suggest you try posting over there as well.

This game looks like a big headache.

Unless you have an excellent processor cooling setup, it is doubtful
that you have very much overclocking headroom. If you are using
a "stock" heatsink/fan or a cheap heatsink/fan, the outlook for OCing
your rig is not bright. Unless you have a processor made before week
0339 (39th week of 2003), the multiplier will be locked (probably at
a factor of 13 [13 x 166.666 = 2167])