Upgrading an old Socket-754 board?

[cdipierr]

I have an old socket 754 Asus board running an Athlon-3200+ @ 2.2GHz. Cache is 128k/512k.

I'd like to upgrade the processor if at all possible. Doing some research I know the board can take up to A64-3700+ chips, but realistically, anything over 3200+ is tough to find even on Ebay for a realistic amount of money.

I did see that the board can take a Sempron 3400+ which if I'm correct runs at 1.8GHz, but being a bit of a different architecture, it might be a bit better.

I know the answer at this stage is usually "start over with a new board", which is a reasonable answer, but just trying to eeke out a little more performance for cheap if possible.

 

[o1die]

Have you tried overclocking? It's not a good investment to upgrade your cpu. You'd be better off getting a refurbished 939 board (about $40) and dual core cpu, which newegg sells for about $63. This morning a website was selling 4 1 gig sticks of corsair ddr2 pc6400 for $65 shipped with no rebate. That was a bargain.

 

[jjmIII]

Semp 3400+ runs at 2ghz. I can see no reason why it would be faster than the Athlon 3200+.

My Semp 3400+ runs easily on a 250 bus @ 2.5ghz.....then it beats a stock Athlon 3200+ .

 

[nyker96]

I had the same problem, but it's my m.b. 754 needs replacing. The platform is quite dead and costing too much to upgrade, e.g. say you go for 2x512 on memory that cost more than 2gb DDR2800s on ebays. Pretty ridiculous, and for the cash to get a A64-3700+ you can get an X2 or even a E2140. The motherboard I bought off ebay is 50 bucks not that cheap, you can get a new 775 for like 75 bucks something like IP35-E when on sale. ANyhow I think keep dumping money into 754 is not a good idea, I'm planning to slowly buying new parts for a complete replacement to AM2/775 in about 6 months time then sell off the 754 stuff on ebay probably end up spending little money upgrading to the newest stuff. I recommend this route as well. sell the old stuff which on ebay is worths a lot then use the cash for a new platform.

 

[bryanW1995]

754 is dead. get a ds3L or ip-35e with a cheap c2d, you will have a tremendous improvement for a minimum cash investment after you sell your old parts.

 

[GundamF91]

I'm in the same boat. I have 754 (ECS) with Athlon64 3200+. I can up the board to 218 Mhz, and that's about 2.4Ghz performance. ECS wont' allow me more than that, but the CPU should be able to handle 2.5Ghz if you have good board and memory. Basically 754 is dead, but I still can run Oblivion with it and also my AGP card. So this will last a while longer until I can get to PCI-e and AM3 or LGA775.

 

[j0j081]

I have one of the fastest socket 754 processors you can buy. It's the 3400+ venice which is a great overclocker limited only by the rest of your hardware. Stock is 2.4 ghz, I only run mine at 2.6 but rumor is it can hit close to 2.8 easy on air which makes it pretty damn fast. I'm actually thinking of selling it soon though just because I want to upgrade to a quad core or something by the end of this year.

 

[cdipierr]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I figured it was a dead end, but worth a shot.

It is a a nice Asus board, so overclocking is an option, so maybe I'll experiment with that.

The other killer is the memory speed limitation. I upgraded from 1GB to 2GB recently, but memory speed plummeted. As I recall this is because of the way the HT worked "back then". It's still better to not swap, but it's caused gameplay degradation.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: cdipierr
Thanks for all the tips guys. I figured it was a dead end, but worth a shot.

It is a a nice Asus board, so overclocking is an option, so maybe I'll experiment with that.

The other killer is the memory speed limitation. I upgraded from 1GB to 2GB recently, but memory speed plummeted. As I recall this is because of the way the HT worked "back then". It's still better to not swap, but it's caused gameplay degradation.

You can manually correct the ram speed in the bios. However, if you want to play with overclocking, set the ram speed low so it won't overclock to an unstable value when you crank up the HTT. I also use a minimum of 2.7v for ram on skt754 boards as well. Don't be afraid to relax timings if you intend to push it beyond stock speed either. Remember to use memtest and your favorite CPU/system stress tester with each attempt. You can refer to Zebo's overclocking guide here for more details if you aren't a overclocking veteran.

The on-die memory controller comes along for the ride when you overclock the CPU, it can help you get more FPS, how much varies situationally, by settings and amount of overclock, and task/game, so it can be well worth the effort.

BTW 1 of my systems is a DFI skt754 that is PCIe, so I wouldn't call it entirely dead just yet, with a powerful new 8 series card, it would still be a capable gamer.

 

[cdipierr]

Yes, you *should* be able to change the memory timings in BIOS, but in my experience, setting it manually or setting it to auto doesn't seem to have any different effect. The issue as I recall has to do with something about addressing 3 banks?

Here's what I discovered using a memory testing application:

With 1 GB (1 stick) installed:
950 MB/s transfer

With 2 GB (3 sticks, 2x512 + the original 1GB):
400 MB/s transfer

With 2 GB (2 sticks, 2x1GB):
750 MB/s transfer

All sticks above are CL3 PC-3200.

The Asus BIOS has the ability to run the memory bus at various speeds such as 100 MHz, 133 MHz, 166 MHz, 200 MHz, or Auto, but changing those settings had no visible effect on the transfer rates in any of the situations listed above. I assume this is because it's just ignoring the BIOS settings and letting the CPU/bus decide.

I'm currently running the 2GB, 2 stick setup, and while that's certainly helped in general day-to-day Windows activity, in games it's a letdown from the 1GB approach.

Video is an ATI Radeon x800 Series AGP card.

Edit to add...

Using a better memory utility (PC Wizard), here's more info:

Chipset RAM Type: DDR-SDRAM PC2500 Single
DIMM Type: DDR-SDRAM PC-3200
Bus Speed: 201 MHz
HT Link: 803.9 MHz
Memory Frequency: 158MHz
Chipset Bandwidth: 8840 MB/s
Memory Bandwidth: 2526 MB/s
Latency: CL3

Is there something wrong with the above? The bus speed seems right, but is the memory frequency wrong somehow?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Memory Frequency: 158MHz

Yeah, that is too low, it reads that despite your setting it to 200mhz manually with 2x1gb? Which utilities did you use? You may want to google if there is a better bios for your board then one you are using as well.

MY DFI Infinity doesn't have any issue with 2 sticks running@ or above 200mhz, even with overclocking, so it has to be bios/bios settings, which Asus model is it?

Regardless, if you can't get it to except higher ram frequency, and you don't want to overclock or flash the bios *if even needed*, your next option would be to just boost the ram voltage a bit, and tighten the timings. Since it is rated for CL3@200mhz it will probably handle CL2.5 or even CL2@the current frequency with the added voltage. Make certain it is set to 1T command rate, and I find 8 is a good value for the tRAS with that platform. The best way to juice it for the most performance right now though is to overclock. It'll increase the ram frequency, and more importantly, boost the integrated memory controller and CPU frequency, which will get you over the performance hump you are experiencing with 2 sticks v. 1 stick due to reduced speed and probably higher latency into the deal.

 

[GundamF91]

The 754 does't have dual channel memory but while it doesn't get faster with 2 sticks, it shouldn't be lower either. With my 754, I do notice that the 2 sticks make the system less stable when Oc'd compared to 1 stick of DDR400. Maybe it's due to the way memory system works. Also note that your 754 motherboard has 4x200 HTT, so that's really where you want to adjust. Without a way to lock in AGP and PCI, you'll probably have issue with hitting a limit oc'ing the HTT above 880 or so, because you'll be oc'ing your AGP and PCI channels 10% overspec, and that induces issues.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: GundamF91
The 754 does't have dual channel memory but while it doesn't get faster with 2 sticks, it shouldn't be lower either. With my 754, I do notice that the 2 sticks make the system less stable when Oc'd compared to 1 stick of DDR400.

That's because the older 754 cores (in other words, all but the Venices) require slightly more vcore with two sticks of RAM. It's because the on-die memory controller needs more voltage, when having to control two sticks, compared to one. Then again, you can also just raise the memory timings, like I did here, which then makes it easier on the memory controller: screenshot.

 

[GundamF91]

My 3200+ is a Venice core, and I have it running 1.40v. Is that good enough? I've got my speed to 218mhz now, but suffered a couple of crash/restarts after 4hr of gaming Oblivion. I'm still trying to isolate if it's the AGP card or the CPU or the DDR that's the culprit.

 

[nmathew]

If sounds like you might have the combo deal I have; newcastle 3200+ with an Asus k8V SE deluxe. If so, you CANNOT overclock that board. It does not have an AGP/PCI clock lock, which means that small overclocks will run nearly everything out of spec. Even a 2% increase of my FSB caused my DVD burner to have write verification errors. Check your chipset. If it's the VIA K8T800, overclocking will lead to instabilities.

 

[GundamF91]

Actually I have the ECS Motherboard K8M800, which is same as K8T800 but with onboard video (which I've added ATi x1650 AGP card now). I share your pain nmathew. The ECS board does not have AGP/PCI lock either, so anything I up on the base HTT speed, such as from 9% increase from 200 to 218mhz (800mhz to 872mhz), I am upping the AGP and PCI by 9% as well, with AGP @ 72.66mhz, and PCI @ 36.33mhz.

I do not have SATA devices so may be the instability is not as much. My IDE drives are working fine at this speed, but I know for a fact that when I push the base HTT to 224mhz, which is about 37.33mhz PCI, the system would lock up. Even then, I'm worried about the 2 recent shut down I've experienced at the 9% overclock. I've also overclocked my ATi x1650 so it could be that one. We'll have to see.

 

[cdipierr]

I have the K8N-E Deluxe (NVidia chipset).

Anyway, doing some digging ... I have the latest BIOS already.

In the Chipset section, it shows my memory running at 166MHz in BIOS. I have the option of setting it to "Manual" in which case I can pick 200, 300, or 400. If I pick 400 or Auto, it keeps the clock at 166. If I set it to 200, it'll run memory at 100.

Ugh. Why can't it run at 200 real? It DID do that with just one memory stick.

 

[GundamF91]

It sounds like it kept defaulting it to DDR333 spec. Is your Athlon64 3200+ a Venice core? I got my 2 DDR400 sticks to work at 400mhz without any problem. In fact they're running at 433mhz right now, just won't go much higher than that. I think it's the board issue. I would recommend stick with it until early 2008, and then go with big motherboard upgrade, and piece out 754 system.

 

[cdipierr]

I don't know what a Venice core is...or how to tell. It's a 2.2GHz 3200+ if that matters.

 

[nyker96]

Originally posted by: cdipierr
I don't know what a Venice core is...or how to tell. It's a 2.2GHz 3200+ if that matters.

just read off the CPU numbers on the back. Most people knows this stuff just need that particular number to tell which revision of CPU you have.

 

[cdipierr]

Originally posted by: nyker96
just read off the CPU numbers on the back. Most people knows this stuff just need that particular number to tell which revision of CPU you have.

I appreciate the idea, but the heatsync/fan are majorly gooped on, I doubt the numbers are readable by this point. No quick software ID utility?

 

[Jester666]

Originally posted by: cdipierr

Originally posted by: nyker96
just read off the CPU numbers on the back. Most people knows this stuff just need that particular number to tell which revision of CPU you have.

I appreciate the idea, but the heatsync/fan are majorly gooped on, I doubt the numbers are readable by this point. No quick software ID utility?

CPU-Z

 

[cdipierr]

CPU-Z reports:

Name: AMD Athlon 3200+
Code Name: NewCastle
Brand ID: 4
Package: Socket 754
Technology: 0.13um
Core Voltage: 1.5V (ish)
Specification: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+
Family: F
Model: C
Stepping: 0
Ext. Family: F
Ext. Model: C
Revision: DH7-CG

Its memory tab reports:
Frequency: 158 MHz
FSBRAM CPU/14
CAS, RAS, RAS Precharge: All 3 clocks
Cycle Time: 7 clocks
Bank Cycle: 10 clocks
Command Rate: 2T
DRAM Idle: 16 clocks

 

[cdipierr]

And as an FYI, both sticks of memory read:
PC3200 (200 MHz), Corsair VGS1GB400C3

Perfectly matched, so no issues there.

 

[GundamF91]

Ok, yours is NewCastle, and mine is Venice, not big deal, just that yours run a bit hotter as it's 0.13um, where as Venice is 0.09um (90nm). The problem I see here is that your memory is CPU speed divided by 14.

With my 3200+, the multiplier is 11, because 11x200mhz = 2.2Ghz. Yours should be the case also, check the CPU-Z to see if it has the x11 multiplier. Your Memory ideally should be CPU/11 speed. Right now the readout says 14. I'm thinking it has to be something with the motherboard not able to support the 2 sticks at 200mhz. speed.