Upgrade Canon PowerShot SD850 IS to Canon PowerShot G9?

[NFS4]

I have a Canon SD850 IS and it's a nice little camera, but low-light performance is pretty crappy (IMHO) and I'l like some more manual control with the camera.

I'd like to go with a D-SLR, but it's not exactly easy to carry around a D-SLR with me. The G9 isn't exactly a featherweight either, but it's easier to transport than a D-SLR.

Would the G9 be a good choice? CC has it for $439.99 and I can use my 8% AAA discount to drop it further plus a free Epson R280 printer.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: NFS4
I have a Canon SD850 IS and it's a nice little camera, but low-light performance is pretty crappy (IMHO) and I'l like some more manual control with the camera.

I'd like to go with a D-SLR, but it's not exactly easy to carry around a D-SLR with me. The G9 isn't exactly a featherweight either, but it's easier to transport than a D-SLR.

Would the G9 be a good choice? CC has it for $439.99 and I can use my 8% AAA discount to drop it further plus a free Epson R280 printer.

The G9 doesn't exactly have that good low light performance either, since it's sensor is still 5-6x smaller than even DSLRs with APS-C sized sensors. The G9 is pretty much useless over ISO 400 unless you are making very small prints; in contrast, a DSLR like the E-410 or 420 will produce usable shots up to ISO 1600.

I would suggest you look at the Olympus Evolt E-410 or E-420, since that has a 4/3 size sensor (slightly smaller than APS-C) in a very compact form factor, especially with the Zuiko 25mm f/2.8 lens.

The Panasonic G1 that was just released is another good option, since it fits a 4/3 DSLR sensor into a camera the size of a superzoom.

Overall, I don't think it's worth paying $450 for any kind of point and shoot, since you can get similar performance and features (including IS and manual controls) from a Panasonic Lumix LZ8 that costs $150. Since you already have an SD850 IS, I really don't think it's worth upgrading unless you upgrade to a compact DSLR like the Evolt E-420 or a 4/3 psuedo-DSLR like the Panasonic G1

 

[NFS4]

Thanks, I'll look into it.

I used to have a Nikon D70, but I got rid of it because I didn't use half the features and it just seemed too overwhelming at times. Now, however, after going back to P&S cameras, I miss the image quality and performance even if I wasn't using all the features that I possibly could with the D70.

How about the Evolt E-510 or is it larger than the E-420? I'd like to go as small as possible.

$519 - 8%

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm...m/ccd/productDetail.do

And BTW, what's the diff between the 410 and 420?

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Unfortunately, the E-510 is only slightly smaller than the other entry-level DSLR's.

As an alternative to the G9, you may want to check out the Canon A650. Same sensor, lens, etc as the G9, less $$. BTW, there is also a fairly popular hack that allows you to shoot RAW with it.

Another camera that has been getting good reviews is the new Sony DSC-W300.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
Unfortunately, the E-510 is only slightly smaller than the other entry-level DSLR's.

As an alternative to the G9, you may want to check out the Canon A650. Same sensor, lens, etc as the G9, less $$. BTW, there is also a fairly popular hack that allows you to shoot RAW with it.

Another camera that has been getting good reviews is the new Sony DSC-W300.

He wants good low light performance, an area in which no point and shoot is comparable to a DLSR

To the OP:
The E-510 and E-520 are larger, about the same size as the Canon Rebel XTI and Nikon D40. The E-410 an E-420 is smaller:

Comparison between E-410 and Digital Rebel XTI:

Side
Front

You can get an E-410 body pretty cheaply, and it's really not that different from the E-420. Here is the full list of differences from DPReview:

# Larger, 2.7" LCD display (versus 2.5" on the E-410)
# Contrast detect autofocus (with select lenses)
# Face detection in live view mode
# Auto Gradation (Dynamic Range enhancement)
# Faster continuous shooting speeds (3.5 vs 3.0 fps)
# Improved right hand grip
# Perfect Shot Preview
# Wireless flash control

An E-410 body is as low as $300 used, and the 25mm (50mm equivalent) f/2.8 "pancake" lens is about $220 new Here

If you look around on eBay, you could probably snag an E-420 complete with 25mm lens for <$500. That'll give you a very compact DSLR with a fast prime lens to carry around. Not only will it produce usable results up to ISO 1600, but the fast f/2.8 lens will help as well.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: 996GT2
He wants good low light performance, an area in which no point and shoot is comparable to a DLSR[/L]

OP has also stated he doesn't want to lug around a DSLR. Life is full of compromises, he should know his options.

OP - best bet would be to check photo web sites such as DPReview.com, DCResource.com, Imaging-Resource.com, etc.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
Unfortunately, the E-510 is only slightly smaller than the other entry-level DSLR's.

As an alternative to the G9, you may want to check out the Canon A650. Same sensor, lens, etc as the G9, less $$. BTW, there is also a fairly popular hack that allows you to shoot RAW with it.

Another camera that has been getting good reviews is the new Sony DSC-W300.

He wants good low light performance, an area in which no point and shoot is comparable to a DLSR

To the OP:
The E-510 and E-520 are larger, about the same size as the Canon Rebel XTI and Nikon D40. The E-410 an E-420 is smaller:

Comparison between E-410 and Digital Rebel XTI:

Side
Front

You can get an E-410 body pretty cheaply, and it's really not that different from the E-420. Here is the full list of differences from DPReview:

# Larger, 2.7" LCD display (versus 2.5" on the E-410)
# Contrast detect autofocus (with select lenses)
# Face detection in live view mode
# Auto Gradation (Dynamic Range enhancement)
# Faster continuous shooting speeds (3.5 vs 3.0 fps)
# Improved right hand grip
# Perfect Shot Preview
# Wireless flash control

An E-410 body is as low as $300 used, and the 25mm (50mm equivalent) f/2.8 "pancake" lens is about $220 new Here

If you look around on eBay, you could probably snag an E-420 complete with 25mm lens for <$500. That'll give you a very compact DSLR with a fast prime lens to carry aound.

I found a new E420 with 14-42 lens for $529

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/...LR_Digital_Camera.html

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: 996GT2

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
Unfortunately, the E-510 is only slightly smaller than the other entry-level DSLR's.

As an alternative to the G9, you may want to check out the Canon A650. Same sensor, lens, etc as the G9, less $$. BTW, there is also a fairly popular hack that allows you to shoot RAW with it.

Another camera that has been getting good reviews is the new Sony DSC-W300.

He wants good low light performance, an area in which no point and shoot is comparable to a DLSR

To the OP:
The E-510 and E-520 are larger, about the same size as the Canon Rebel XTI and Nikon D40. The E-410 an E-420 is smaller:

Comparison between E-410 and Digital Rebel XTI:

Side
Front

You can get an E-410 body pretty cheaply, and it's really not that different from the E-420. Here is the full list of differences from DPReview:

# Larger, 2.7" LCD display (versus 2.5" on the E-410)
# Contrast detect autofocus (with select lenses)
# Face detection in live view mode
# Auto Gradation (Dynamic Range enhancement)
# Faster continuous shooting speeds (3.5 vs 3.0 fps)
# Improved right hand grip
# Perfect Shot Preview
# Wireless flash control

An E-410 body is as low as $300 used, and the 25mm (50mm equivalent) f/2.8 "pancake" lens is about $220 new Here

If you look around on eBay, you could probably snag an E-420 complete with 25mm lens for <$500. That'll give you a very compact DSLR with a fast prime lens to carry aound.

I found a new E420 with 14-42 lens for $529

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/...LR_Digital_Camera.html

The 14-42 lens is not nearly as compact as the very slim 25mm pancake lens, but the resulting combination is still smaller than any usual DSLR.

I'd say go for it!

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

Originally posted by: 996GT2
He wants good low light performance, an area in which no point and shoot is comparable to a DLSR[/L]

OP has also stated he doesn't want to lug around a DSLR. Life is full of compromises, he should know his options.

OP - best bet would be to check photo web sites such as DPReview.com, DCResource.com, Imaging-Resource.com, etc.

Yeah, but I only wanted to go with the G9 if it was gonna give me better low-light performance and image quality -- if it's not gonna help me there, I might as well just suck it up and move on up.

 

[996GT2]

Yeah, if you want good low light performance in a somewhat compact package (for a DSLR anyway), then the E-420 is really your best bet right now. You'll be able to use the entire line of Olympus Zuiko lenses, including some very nice (and very expensive) pro grade lenses like their 90-250mm f/2.8.

The E-420 does not have as good high ISO performance as competitors from Nikon and Canon, mainly due to the fact that the 4/3 system uses a smaller sensor than the APS-C sized sensors used by Canon and Nikon. However, it is still MILES ahead of any point and shoot and will get you usable shots at ISO 1600.

Plus, the E-420 does have a noticeable size advantage compared to traditional DSLRs. You can check the comparison images I linked above. The E-420 is dramatically thinner than a Rebel XTi and also smaller on the front face. If you pair it with the 14-42, then you do lose some of the portability, but with the 25mm pancake lens an E-420 is dramatically smaller than any other DSLR.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

Originally posted by: 996GT2
He wants good low light performance, an area in which no point and shoot is comparable to a DLSR[/L]

OP has also stated he doesn't want to lug around a DSLR. Life is full of compromises, he should know his options.

OP - best bet would be to check photo web sites such as DPReview.com, DCResource.com, Imaging-Resource.com, etc.

Yeah, but I only wanted to go with the G9 if it was gonna give me better low-light performance and image quality -- if it's not gonna help me there, I might as well just suck it up and move on up.

In that case, then, you may want to check out conventional DSLR's, rather than the 4/3 system. Not that there's anything wrong with 4/3, but high ISO performance is inferior to the APS-C format, and there isn't much of a size difference.

Most important, I think, is to give yourself the chance to handle the cameras - go to CC or wherever and check them out in person.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: 996GT2
Plus, the E-420 does have a noticeable size advantage compared to traditional DSLRs. You can check the comparison images I linked above. The E-420 is dramatically thinner than a Rebel XTi and also smaller on the front face. If you pair it with the 14-42, then you do lose some of the portability, but with the 25mm pancake lens an E-420 is dramatically smaller than any other DSLR.

With the pancake, he's limiting himself regarding versatility.

Size comparison (specs from DPReview)

Olympus E-420: 130mm x 91mm x 53mm

Nikon D40: 124mm x 94mm x 64mm

Canon XSi: 129mm x 98mm x 62mm

Not much of a difference, less than 1/2" in thickness.

Also, with the E-420, you lose Image Stabilization, which may be a very desirable feature.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

Originally posted by: 996GT2
Plus, the E-420 does have a noticeable size advantage compared to traditional DSLRs. You can check the comparison images I linked above. The E-420 is dramatically thinner than a Rebel XTi and also smaller on the front face. If you pair it with the 14-42, then you do lose some of the portability, but with the 25mm pancake lens an E-420 is dramatically smaller than any other DSLR.

With the pancake, he's limiting himself regarding versatility.

Size comparison (specs from DPReview)

Olympus E-420: 130mm x 91mm x 53mm

Nikon D40: 124mm x 94mm x 64mm

Canon XSi: 129mm x 98mm x 62mm

Not much of a difference, less than 1/2" in thickness.

Also, with the E-420, you lose Image Stabilization, which may be a very desirable feature.

The size figures you quoted are without any lens. With the 25mm pancake lens, the E-420 is thinner than any other Canikon DSLR out there and is in fact about the size of another DSLR's body alone.

The 25mm lens gives a 50mm focal length: handy for portraits, landscapes, and a myriad of other situations. For many years, 35mm film cameras were sold with a 50mm lens because 50mm is a very useful focal length. Sure, there is no zoom, but learning to compose properly makes you a better photographer anyway and the fixed focal length lens will produce better and sharper images than any zoom lens at any price. Plus, with the 10 MP resolution of the E-420, it's easy to crop a picture and still be able to make 8x10 prints.

I'm suggesting the 25mm lens because I've shot many shots with the 50mm on my Nikon D70. On the D70, the Nikkor 50mm actually has an effective focal length of 75mm; too long to be versatile for every situation, but I still found myself using it very often due to the fast aperture and great quality. Even after I got my 18-55mm VR, I still use the 50mm f/1.8 A LOT.

Sure, the OP could go out and buy a "normal" DSLR like a D40 or Rebel XS/XSi. But with the 18-55mm kit lenses on those cameras, a lot of the portability is thrown out the window. With an E-410 and a 25mm lens, the camera will actually still fit into a large pocket (like on a pair of cargo shorts) and will produce much better images at ISO 1600 than any point and shoot camera ever could.

Edit: Panasonic LX3, as suggested by ElFenix, is another good choice. It doesn't have the ISO performance of a DSLR because the sensor is still 5-6x smaller, but it does have an f/2.0-2.8 lens that lets in more light than the f/2.8-4.8 lens on the G9.

If you were really concerned about low light/no flash performance though, I would still go with the E-420 and 25mm lens combination.

 

[ElFenix]

the g9 has been discontinued by canon. i'd expect a g10 at photokina, and hopefully it'll be something more than a metal bodied a-series.

for small i'd look hard at a panasonic lx-3. it'll easily fit in a cargo pants pocket. it's sensor is a little bigger than the G9's, but it's lens is a lot faster so you get a bit better low-light performance.

the e410/420 isn't anywhere near as compact as the lx-3 or the g9, though it's the smallest slr. the e510/e520 is actually quite a bit wider than the d40 and xti. the grip is fairly substantial on those.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Wait a minute... are you telling me that there are no pancake lenses for Nikon?

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
Wait a minute... are you telling me that there are no pancake lenses for Nikon?

No, there are no current Nikon "pancake" lenses. There were some manual focus Nikkor lenses in that form factor many years ago, but neither Nikon nor Canon make lenses that thin today.

The 50mm f/1.8 is about as thin as it gets for Canon and Nikon. The AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 is twice as thick as the Olympus 25mm, and its effective focal length is really 75mm when mounted on a DX body.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Wow...

<---- Pentax user

 

[NFS4]

Even better, I found the E-420 for $486 at Buydig with the 14-42 lens

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: NFS4
Even better, I found the E-420 for $486 at Buydig with the 14-42 lens

Pretty slick... the Olympus kit lens is generally regarded as being the best, although lately all the manufacturers have stepped up.

Are you willing to forgo having any type of IS (other than a new camera body)?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle

Originally posted by: NFS4
Even better, I found the E-420 for $486 at Buydig with the 14-42 lens

Pretty slick... the Olympus kit lens is generally regarded as being the best, although lately all the manufacturers have stepped up.

Are you willing to forgo having any type of IS (other than a new camera body)?

I'm not the concerned about IS. I didn't have it on my Nikon D70 and it wasn't really a problem with handheld shooting and I usually have IS turned off on my SD850 IS because it's on the tripod most of the time.

 

[996GT2]

Then go for the E-420 deal; I think you'll like it.

 

[NFS4]

Scratch the E-420 off my list. I just went to CC to to try out Nikon, Canon, and Olympus cameras. The hand grip (or rather, the lack of a hand grip) is an instant deal breaker. There is just no way in the world that I could use an SLR like that, no matter how small it is. The camera on display had the kit 14-42 lens attached and I just couldn't get a comfortable grip or feel comfortable holding it in one hand by my side like I could with my D70.

They had an E-510 there as well, and the grip on that felt much better (even if the camera itself is larger). The other options were the Canon XTi and XSi, but the build quality/paint finish of those cameras leaves much to be desired. They both felt cheap. They had a Nikon D40 kit there as well for $499 as well, but I think that I may just end up getting the E-510 due to its better features and $519 price tag before 8% discount.

Decisions, decisions.

 

[996GT2]

Well, the lack of a grip is what you have to trade for the smaller form factor. If you want a full grip, then yeah, a full sized DSLR is the way to go.

I would not go for the E-510 though if you intend on getting a full sized DSLR, since you stated that ISO performance was one of your main reasons for upgrading in the first place.

Here is a comparison of sensor sizes

35mm Full Frame (Nikon D3, Canon EOS-1D, etc)
864mm^2

Nikon APS-C (D40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 200, 300, etc):
370mm^2

Canon APS-C (Rebel, XT, XTi, XSI, XS, 20D, 30D, 40D, etc)
329mm^2

Olympus 4/3 System (E-400, 410, 420, 50, 510, 520, etc):
225mm^2

1/1.7" (Canon G9, Panasonic LX3, other high end P&S cameras)
43mm^2

1/2.5" (Canon SD, Canon A series, many other P&S)
25mm^2

As you can see, the 4/3 system has only about 1/2 the area of the Nikon APS-C sensor, so when you cram the same # of megapixels onto that smaller sensor the result is more noise at higher ISO.

I would suggest you look at the Nikon D40, since it's got 6 megapixels with the largest APS-C sensor. It will produce clean and very usable images all the way up to ISO 1600.

If you don't mind used, Nikon's D70 is another good choice and will let you get autofocus with older Nikkor AF lenses (the D40 and D60 will only AF with newer AF-S or AF-I lenses that have the AF motor built into the lens).

I suggest you read the reviews over at DPReview of both the E-510 and D40 before you buy. The Olympus does have more features, but it does make several important compromises to the Nikon (one of them being poorer performance at high ISO).

 

[NFS4]

The D40 is $469.99 plus free Epson R280 after rebate at CC. I still feel that I would be missing alot as far as features go.

I did like the way that it felt in my hands. Also, I don't plan on using older lenses with the camera. I'd probably just stick with the kit lens.

I suggest you read the reviews over at DPReview of both the E-510 and D40 before you buy. The Olympus does have more features, but it does make several important compromises to the Nikon (one of them being poorer performance at high ISO).

I read the reviews of the E-420 (haven't gotten to the E-510 yet), but I read about somewhat soft images at 1600 ISO. I don't usually didn't shoot at higher than 800 with my D70 and I don't make very large prints.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: NFS4
The D40 is $469.99 plus free Epson R280 after rebate at CC.

I did like the way that it felt in my hands. Also, I don't plan on using older lenses with the camera. I'd probably just stick with the kit lens.

Check online to see if you can just get the D40 body for around $350 or so.

I recommend doing this and getting the 18-55mm VR lens instead of the regular 18-55mm II that comes in the D40 kit. The VR version is the D60's kit lens, but you can find it new on eBay for $120 shipped (where I got mine). Having VR is a great thing as it will let you shoot at shutter speeds of 1/10 sec or even lower and still get reasonably sharp shots.