Upgradability & Planning Ahead for Newbies

[Streckfus]

I know this subject has been beaten like the proverbial dead horse, but if I may, I'd like to take a stab at it from a different point of view.

I'm pretty new here, and I'd venture to say that 99% of all users on this forum are much more advanced than I am, but for the few of you out there that are on the same page as I am, here are my thoughts on upgradability.

Although one can never be "futureproof", I sincerely believe that a person can buy hardware now, with future upgrade potential in mind. And I also believe that regardless of technological advancements, a person can be fairly safe three or fours years from now.

There's a lot of talk on these forums about buying "for the now" and not even bothering with upgradability, but I don't think that applies to the average user. The ultra overclockers, the gearheads, the enthusiasts who need to buy into the newest technologies every six months....no, those folks will never be able to buy a system that'll "last" them three or four years, because that isn't what they're in it for. They wants the biggest and baddest gear at any point in time, and that's totally fine. But there are average end users like me that use computers simply for gaming and other apps, and we have no interest in earning bragging rights with benchmarks, price tags, overclocking, etc.

As soon as I get the cash, I'll be picking up the A8N-SLI Deluxe mobo. I'm not going with SLI right now, but I will be throwing a 6800GT PCI-E card into the works, along with an AMD 64 3500+ and 2GB PC3200 RAM. No overclocking. And although that stock system, without any fudging, may not compare to the enthusiast PCs, from my standpoint, it's going to be a monster.

My current PC is a P3 800MHz with 384MB RAM and a MX4000 video card. Only recently has it become "obsolete" from a gaming standpoint, and I bought the thing over three years ago. But for the average user, it is STILL perfectly fine. Video capture and editing? Sure, maybe not nearly as fast as today's PCs, but completely capable. Word processing? Give me a break. Surfing the net? Of course. Gaming? No, not anymore. Hence, upgrade time.

Now, as soon as my new system gets up and running, it may not come close to any benchmarks that most users on this forum are reaching. But you know what? I won't notice one bit. From my standpoint, my video editing will improve greatly. With the new CPU & video card, I'll be able to play any game I want for quite some time. And in three years, when the 6800GT is old school, PCI-Express is giving way to PCI-E2 or whatever, you know what? I'll still be alright. I'll still be able to pick up the newest "hot card" with the PCI-E interface, regardless of whether or not SLI takes off. Who cares if in three years PCI-E isn't the "best thing out there?" AGP isn't the best thing out there right now, but it will STILL offer top performance as long as it's got a good video card attached to it, right? And in three years, I can always grab an FX CPU and throw it into my old school socket 939 if my 3500+ isn't cutting the cake.

So what's the point of all of this? For all you new folks out there that are clueless about the "ins and outs" of computing, here's my opinion: we CAN do research now and put together systems that will be upgradable in the future, even 3-4 years ahead. When I first started reading these forums (long before I joined, that's for sure), I was slammed with a bunch of techno babble that confused me to no end. The people on this forum REALLY know their sh!t. But I've started to learn a few things, and here are some words of advice for the new folks:

There are some very knowledgeable people around here that will really help you out. A few of them have taken the time to put together comprehensive guides for newbies. A few people will be condescending and poke fun at your ignorance, but a lot of folks are here to help. And don't buy into the whole competition thing. Your PC doesn't have to break any records, and it doesn't have to be a cutting-edge machine unless you want it to be. You can get a nice setup for under $2000, and I believe that the same setup will have plenty of upgrade potential three years from now.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

 

[deveraux]

For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. I will actually be getting a system practically identical to yours and what you have planned as a CPU upgrade is exactly the same as what I have planned. However, I do upgrade my video card every other "generation" since I can't live without having high-resolutions. Anand's recent article on upgradability was quite a good read IMO. I have to say though, that one of the posts on this forum provided a very interesting method of upgrading which me being the silly git that I am never thought of.

It basically revolved around the idea of upgrading individual components of your computer and selling off the old ones that you didn't need and since those parts will only be about a generation old, you'd still get quite a good price on it which makes the total cost of upgrading much much lower. If you were to do this say every 6 months, IMO it will eventually amount to you having among the best rigs out there while extending the life of certain components on your system. I mean, honestly, the main parts of a system that really require attention to upgrading are only the CPU and Graphics card.

If you notice, socket A which was introduced some ~5 years ago IIRC is only about now starting to be "phased out". If people had done the upgrade bit by bit, they would now probably have an XP3200+ CPU which is still a very good system and definitely not worth the price of a full upgrade unless you absolutely have to have bleeding edge performance. I haven't really done the calculations to which option is more favourable but this is just another route to take should you decide to.

 

[Monkey muppet]

For the type of user that you are I would personnaly only go for the 1GB (2x512mb) and split the saved money into getting a slightly nice (quiter) case and a quality PSU

 

[Streckfus]

Originally posted by: Monkey muppet
For the type of user that you are I would personnaly only go for the 1GB (2x512mb) and split the saved money into getting a slightly nice (quiter) case and a quality PSU

I do a lot of digital audio/video editing in addition to the gaming, and when you're running 24+ audio tracks or moving between your video app & Photoshop for rotoscoping, etc....that extra RAM comes in handy. But if I were strictly into gaming, web surfing and word processing, then yeah, I'd be fine with 1GB of RAM.

My future rig:

Antec PlusView1000AMG
Athlon 64 3500+
A8N-SLI Deluxe
2GB PC3200 Corsair Value Select
OCZ PowerStream 520W
6800GT PCI-E
120GB IDE Seagate (Primary)
120GB IDE WD (Secondary)
Sony DRU710A DVD +/=RW
2x200GB Seagate SATA RAID 0 (for digital audio/video capture/editing)

From the reading/research I've done, I think I've got a decent case/PSU in there....

 

[Chosonman]

Streckfus,
You're not looking at it from price vs performance. You are merely calculating what you are getting now vs what you will do later without considering one important factor which is COST.

In the case of PCI-e the difference is $100.00 vs <1% difference in performance. For those who don't mind spending the extra money JUST to be able to upgrade thats their choice. But most people purchase computers based on the PERFORMANCE they are getting. Although it's nice to think that later on you can just buy a new CPU and poof like magic you have the latest and greatest that's simply not the case. The CPU, Motherboard, RAM and other components all merge together to make a complete system.

And quoting from what I have said in the past:
"Consider the fact chipmakers make more money when there is no upgrade path. History has shown us that upgrade paths are very often distrupted by even minor changes in chip makers designs."

So future minded individuals like yourself are willing to sacrifice performance now in order to improve your system later. While those who opt for performance now will get the best system they can afford now and buy an entirely new system later. And the only difference is that later you will have an upgraded OLD system and the performance oriented person will have an entirely new system with the latest technology for only a few dollars more. (There is very little price difference because you paid more for the latest technology now)

And eventually you'll have to upgrade to an entirely new system not too much further in the future from that point. (Sooner than the performance oriented person who now has a new updated system)

Keep this in mind "The life and breath of a computer is its performance." It is at the point where performance can no longer keep up with the latest applications the system is upgraded and socket type has nothing to do with it.

And finally remember, by opting for upgradability you have sacrificed building a faster system now only for the oportunity to build a slower one later.

 

[Streckfus]

Originally posted by: deveraux
I mean, honestly, the main parts of a system that really require attention to upgrading are only the CPU and Graphics card.

I couldn't agree more...of course, timing has something to do with that. If you buy a mobo/CPU when a new socket is introduced (939) then you have plenty of time to upgrade the CPU. By the time I need a new CPU there'll undoubtedly be a new A64 socket, but at least I'll be able to get the FX CPU at a much more reasonable price.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Originally posted by: Chosonman
Streckfus,
You're not looking at it from price vs performance. If you merely take it as what you are getting now vs what you will do later without factoring one important factor which is COST.

Yeah dude, I really have to agree with Choso here. The system you put together is about $2-300 more than my 754 system I am looking at and that 754 would smoke this system. Money is an object for most people and I would rather get a super high end video card, a budget cpu, and enough RAM than worry about future upgradeability. The CPU is typically the least of your problems in modern games with them asking for 1.xGhz from the CPU to this day. While you would like to be well ahead of the suggested speeds on your CPU, it is not the biggest problem in most apps' bad performance. RAM on an AMD system is easy since you can just get 1 or 2gb of valueRAM. That leaves the video card. There are 2 schools of thought here, spend less money & then overclock & cool the card or just buy a sweet high end card. I opted for the latter because, much like a car, overclocking can have very bad consequences. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Streckfus]

Yeah dude, I really have to agree with Choso here. The system you put together is about $2-300 more than my 754 system I am looking at and that 754 would smoke this system. Money is an object for most people and I would rather get a super high end video card, a budget cpu, and enough RAM than worry about future upgradeability. The CPU is typically the least of your problems in modern games with them asking for 1.xGhz from the CPU to this day. While you would like to be well ahead of the suggested speeds on your CPU, it is not the biggest problem in most apps' bad performance. RAM on an AMD system is easy since you can just get 1 or 2gb of valueRAM. That leaves the video card. There are 2 schools of thought here, spend less money & then overclock & cool the card or just buy a sweet high end card. I opted for the latter because, much like a car, overclocking can have very bad consequences. Just my .02 cents.

I'm sure that your system would smoke mine, but again, I'm not building a PC for bragging rights. Yeah my CPU is more than adequate at this stage, I've got 2GB PC3200 Value RAM, and I'll have a PCI-E eVGA 6800GT video card....where's my weak link and what makes my system "slow"? I dunno, seems to be that the system I've got set up is going to be able to play any game I want for quite some time, and it'll obviously be able to handle the audio/video editing tasks I throw at it.

 

[Chosonman]

Originally posted by: Streckfus
I'm sure that your system would smoke mine, but again, I'm not building a PC for bragging rights. Yeah my CPU is more than adequate at this stage, I've got 2GB PC3200 Value RAM, and I'll have a PCI-E eVGA 6800GT video card....where's my weak link and what makes my system "slow"? I dunno, seems to be that the system I've got set up is going to be able to play any game I want for quite some time, and it'll obviously be able to handle the audio/video editing tasks I throw at it.

I hope I'm understanding you, but after all is said and done you're spending alot more money and getting similiar and not much better performance system compared to less expensive 754 system even after you eventually upgrade.

Also, here's a bold perdiction that I'm willing to bet just about everyone will agree on. The next big leap in performance will not happen on a (939) Winchester Core CPU....

Even if you upgrade your 939 to a cheaper FX chip in the future you're upgrading to negligable performance gains. What does that mean? You wont notice a thing. Wow that's pretty revealing isn't it? And guess what else? You'll have spent almost $200.00 or more preparing and upgrading that system for a few nano second improvement in performance.

 

[Streckfus]

I'm spending about $1600 for this system. And when the day comes to upgrade my video card in a few years (let's estimate that it'll be about $500, fair enough?), maybe throw in an extra gig of RAM or maybe even get a quicker CPU - all of this in a time frame of 4 or 5 years - isn't that a lot cheaper than buying a new motherboard, CPU, video card, etc. every six months or so?

 

[MrControversial]

You know what, I was going to purchase an NForce3 board to save money, but my upgrade curve is about 2 to 3 years anyways, so I'm going for an NForce4 coupled with a 3200 Winnie.

 

[Regs]

3 years is a long time considering how technology is rapidly advancing.

2 years ago the AMD socket A's and Intel 3.0 GHz CPU's were dominating. Paired with a 9700 pro and you had it made. Not even 2 years later, came the 6800's and x800s with the socket 754 A64's which offered almost twice the performance. AMD in the upcoming months will stop manufacturing the Socket A's , so they say. And why not? The 754's and dropping in price as we speak.

It seems like the regular 3 year upgrade has become the regular 2 year upgrade.

With HDL and DX9 features only being introduced to us this year, I can only imagine what games developers will make that will further stretch the boundaries and limitations of hardware in the upcoming years.

 

[Chosonman]

Originally posted by: Streckfus
I'm spending about $1600 for this system. And when the day comes to upgrade my video card in a few years (let's estimate that it'll be about $500, fair enough?), maybe throw in an extra gig of RAM or maybe even get a quicker CPU - all of this in a time frame of 4 or 5 years - isn't that a lot cheaper than buying a new motherboard, CPU, video card, etc. every six months or so?

It's not cost effect for anyone to upgrade every 6 months. That's a choice only hard core enthusiasts chose to make. For the rest of us the life of a computer is analogous to its performance. When it comes time to upgrade similar performing systems will need to be upgraded at about the same time.

But the choice of upgrades you're proposing is not much different than one that can be made by someone who owns a 754 system. The only difference is that the 754 onwner may want to upgrade his motherboard too. But that's not a problem. Here's why....

1) There is hardly any cost benifit between getting new motherboard later then now. In fact costs are likely to run less if one were to buy one later. And considering the price of the newer nforc4 motherboards can be as much as $100.00 higher than an NForce3 motherboard it could be an advantage to buy one later.
2) The 754 buyer has the option to buy newer technology because it could be integrated into the new motherboard.
3) The 939 owner will have to upgrade again sooner rather than later because the technology on his motherboard is older.
4) And finally the 754 owner can use the old CPU, MOBO, and Graphics card for a secondary system or sell it or give it to a family member. While the 939 owner has an old CPU and Graphics are that won't be much use to anyone else unless they purchased a new motherboard to usethem with.