*update* SOUTH DAKOTA...R's may lose chance at Senate control because of....KANSAS

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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Of course. His intent is clearly to get the low information voters who haven't a clue to vote for anyone with a (D) by their name, because these same voters will vote for the guy who isn't a Republican if there's no Democrat. Therefore Kobach's mother would serve just as well as any Democrat.

It would be funny if the Dems nominated someone not eligible and then sued Kobach for adding an ineligible person to the ballot. They won't because of the above, but it would be funny.

Hardly. Taylor figures that:

Orman is a helluva lot better choice than Roberts

Orman might win in a State chock full of knee jerk Hate-Um Democrats voters whereas Taylor never stood a chance.

Therefore, support Orman.

It remains to be seen which party Orman might caucus with if elected.

Any questions?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Hardly. Taylor figures that:

Orman is a helluva lot better choice than Roberts

Orman might win in a State chock full of knee jerk Hate-Um Democrats voters whereas Taylor never stood a chance.

Therefore, support Orman.

It remains to be seen which party Orman might caucus with if elected.

Any questions?
lol Yeah - it's a complete mystery.

Let me take this opportunity to be the first to assert coincidence if he wins and caucuses (and votes) with the Democrats.

See how nice I am? I didn't even point out your total lack of reading comprehension. My quoted comments were about Kobach's motivations, not Taylor's.
 
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First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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Amazing we are even talking about the possibly of the Dems sweeping three of the most important offices in Kansas; Governor, Senator and SoS. Just 7 weeks out.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Amazing we are even talking about the possibly of the Dems sweeping three of the most important offices in Kansas; Governor, Senator and SoS. Just 7 weeks out.
I'm much more aligned with Republicans than with Democrats, but the idea of a single party state suddenly flipping is attractive. No politician or party should ever feel secure in their position.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
lol Yeah - it's a complete mystery.

Let me take this opportunity to be the first to assert coincidence if he wins and caucuses (and votes) with the Democrats.

See how nice I am? I didn't even point out your total lack of reading comprehension. My quoted comments were about Kobach's motivations, not Taylor's.

I understand who you were talking about quite well. I pointed out Taylor's likely motivations, as well. He's the instigator of all this.

Kobach's play to blind partisanship is a little demeaning of his fellow Kansans, don't you think? And a little desperate in a state where Repubs hold a registration majority of ~45% to ~27% over Dems.

It's not like there are a lot of fish in that barrel.

Taylor, OTOH, invites them to think outside the box. He just wants a better man than Roberts representing Kansas.

Reference-

http://watchdog.org/36790/ks-political-party-trends-in-kansas/
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Amazing we are even talking about the possibly of the Dems sweeping three of the most important offices in Kansas; Governor, Senator and SoS. Just 7 weeks out.

Kansans let Repubs have it their way & don't seem happy with the results. Maybe it's one of those personal responsibility deals.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
31
91
Well, clearly forcing someone to nominate would not be a problem; that's just following the law.

No. Election law regulates an existing, Constitutionally-protected process. It does not grant the government the power to conscript civilians in the name of some higher purpose with regards to it. A civilian's participation is a right, not an obligation.

"Slower traffic (shall) keep right," does not change that the use of highways is voluntary. Just as it does not allow the government to order everyone to form up on the highway because, "The law says you shall be ordered by speed," election law cannot coerce a nomination. Election law determines the bounds -- it determines what is validly in the election and what is not -- it cannot force an entry.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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I understand who you were talking about quite well. I pointed out Taylor's likely motivations, as well. He's the instigator of all this.

Kobach's play to blind partisanship is a little demeaning of his fellow Kansans, don't you think? And a little desperate in a state where Repubs hold a registration majority of ~45% to ~27% over Dems.

It's not like there are a lot of fish in that barrel.

Taylor, OTOH, invites them to think outside the box. He just wants a better man than Roberts representing Kansas.

Reference-

http://watchdog.org/36790/ks-political-party-trends-in-kansas/
Ah, my bad. And of course it's desperate - he faces a very real risk of losing a rock-solid Republican state. I think these tactics may ultimately be self-defeating, but had he prevailed at SCOKAN, he would have assured Roberts the win as many Democrat voters would have no idea that their party wanted them to vote for someone besides the Democrat candidate. Since he lost, there's a chance that his actions might tip the scale against Roberts.

No. Election law regulates an existing, Constitutionally-protected process. It does not grant the government the power to conscript civilians in the name of some higher purpose with regards to it. A civilian's participation is a right, not an obligation.

"Slower traffic (shall) keep right," does not change that the use of highways is voluntary. Just as it does not allow the government to order everyone to form up on the highway because, "The law says you shall be ordered by speed," election law cannot coerce a nomination. Election law determines the bounds -- it determines what is validly in the election and what is not -- it cannot force an entry.
"Forcing someone to nominate" means forcing the party to nominate IF the law so required; that would be fulfilling their obligation under the law, which presumably would be an agreement of qualification. "Forcing someone to serve" would mean forcing someone to serve in the role for which she is nominated; I agree that clearly would be un-Constitutional.

This is all moot since (A) the chance that the law requires (or even can require) a party to have a candidate is vanishingly small, and (B) Kansas being a very red state, there are no doubt plenty of statewide offices where the Dems routinely do not nominate a candidate, and probably some gerrymandered for minority representation where the same is true of the GOP. The court allowed the Dems to break the letter of the withdrawal law, presumably because the GOP has been allowed to do the same. There is zero chance the same court would then disallow the same behavior that is much more widely spread.

Kobach's threat to force them to nominate is nothing more than bluff and bluster. Everyone knows this. Even if he can find grounds supporting it (which would probably require someone else to lie - although it's possible that there are Democrats who hate Orman more than Roberts) it's too late for the overseas absentee ballots. That means the various ballots would not have the same choices, which means a lawsuit from the Dems (for having no candidate on the overseas absentee ballots) as well as from Orman.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Well, crap. This is what I get for opining on the law. Turns out that K.S.A. 25-3905(a) says the vacancy shall be filled.

http://www.ksrevisor.org/statutes/chapters/ch25/025_039_0005.html
25-3905. Vacancies after primary election filled by party committee or district convention; governor and lieutenant governor vacancies filled by state party delegate convention. (a) When a vacancy occurs after a primary election in a party candidacy, such vacancy shall be filled by the party committee of the congressional district, county or state, as the case may be, except if the vacancy is in a party candidacy for a district office or for the office of member of the state board of education, it shall be filled by district convention held as provided in K.S.A. 25-3904, and amendments thereto, or as provided in K.S.A. 25-3904a, and amendments thereto, and except as otherwise provided in subsection (c). Such convention shall be called within 10 days of receipt of the notice that the vacancy has occurred or will occur. If only one political party nominates a candidate at the primary election and thereafter a vacancy occurs in such party candidacy, any political party may fill such vacancy in the manner specified in this section.

Additionally, National Review says the overseas ballots may not be an issue - although given that someone here said they had been mailed, perhaps the difference might still be an issue.

http://m.nationalreview.com/corner/...what-they-want-fight-may-not-be-over-hans-von
Late yesterday, the Kansas supreme court granted the writ of mandamus filed by former Democratic U.S. Senate candidate Chad Taylor and ordered Kansas secretary of state Kris Kobach to remove Taylor’s name from the November ballot. But the controversy may not yet be over because of another writ filed by a Democratic voter.

The court dismissed Kobach’s claim (explained in an earlier NRO post) that Taylor failed to comply with the state statute (K.S.A. 25-306b(b)) that requires a candidate who wants to withdraw to certify that “they are incapable of fulfilling the duties of office if elected.” Taylor sent a letter to Kobach that simply said that he was requesting that his name be “withdrawn from the ballot, pursuant to K.S.A. 25-306b(b).”

However, the Kansas court held that Taylor had complied with the statute. In what most lawyers would consider quite a stretch of logic, the justices claimed they were interpreting the “plain meaning” of the statute when they concluded that “Taylor’s letter effectively declares he is incapable of fulfilling the duties of office if elected” since he “incorporated” a reference to the statute in his letter. Because the Kansas Democratic Party was not a party to Taylor’s mandamus action, the court refused to rule on Kobach’s “allegation that a ruling for Taylor would require the Kansas Democratic Party State committee to name his replacement nominee per K.S.A. 25-3905.”

However, almost immediately after the Kansas supreme court issued this order, the same Democratic voter who had filed an amicus brief in the original mandamus action, David Orel, filed his own writ of mandamus seeking an order from the court requiring the Kansas Democratic Party to name a replacement for Taylor on the ballot. Under K.S.A. 25-3905(a), “when a vacancy occurs after a primary election in a party candidacy, such vacancy shall be filled by the party committee of the congressional district, county or state, as the case may be.”

If the Kansas supreme court applies the “plain meaning” of the statute, as they claim to have done in Taylor’s case, then they will note that the statute says that the vacancy “shall” be filled — it is not an option for the political party. As Orel says in his brief, “By its plain terms, therefore, the statute imposes unequivocal and mandatory duties” on the Democratic Party “from which they have no discretion to depart.” Orel also points out that he sent a letter on September 16 to the Kansas Democratic Party asking if the party would comply with this requirement, but he received no answer.

Obviously, the Kansas Democratic Party doesn’t want to answer his letter or lose this second mandamus action because the whole point of this political manipulation of the nomination process was to clear the field for the supposed “Independent” in the race, Greg Orman, a contributor to Barack Obama and the DSCC. Orman and Taylor were splitting the Democratic vote against the incumbent Republican senator, Pat Roberts. In fact, as Orel notes, Joan Wagnon, the chairwoman of the Kansas Democratic Party, told the Associated Press that the party had no intention of naming a replacement for Taylor unless “the court tells me to do something.”

The court will have to move very quickly because the federal deadline for sending out ballots to overseas military and civilian voters is September 20. However, the Justice Department in the past has been flexible on this deadline when these types of candidate issues have arisen as long as overseas voters are given extra time to get their ballots back to state election officials.

So the Democrats won the first round in their desire to get rid of the no-longer-wanted Democratic candidate on the ballot, which has to be one of the oddest developments in this year’s mid-term elections. Whether they will win the second round of their effort to rig the process remains to be seen.

Although even if the court orders the Democrats to comply, I'm not sure how that can be enforced, given what the Dems stand to gain.

If nothing else, it's political theater at its finest. And even if Roberts survives, maybe he'll be convinced he should at least learn to once again locate Kansas on a map. Maybe even establish a pretense of living there occasionally.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Well, crap. This is what I get for opining on the law. Turns out that K.S.A. 25-3905(a) says the vacancy shall be filled.

http://www.ksrevisor.org/statutes/chapters/ch25/025_039_0005.html


Additionally, National Review says the overseas ballots may not be an issue - although given that someone here said they had been mailed, perhaps the difference might still be an issue.

http://m.nationalreview.com/corner/...what-they-want-fight-may-not-be-over-hans-von


Although even if the court orders the Democrats to comply, I'm not sure how that can be enforced, given what the Dems stand to gain.

If nothing else, it's political theater at its finest. And even if Roberts survives, maybe he'll be convinced he should at least learn to once again locate Kansas on a map. Maybe even establish a pretense of living there occasionally.

25-3905. Vacancies after primary election filled by party committee or district convention; governor and lieutenant governor vacancies filled by state party delegate convention. (a) When a vacancy occurs after a primary election in a party candidacy, such vacancy shall be filled by the party committee of the congressional district, county or state, as the case may be
You'll notice that nothing in the law specifies WHEN a vacancy must be filled by the "party committee of the . . . state." The law merely says that the vacancy "shall be filled." The 10-day rule mentioned elsewhere in the statute applies only only to "a district office or for the office of member of the state board of education." Thus, the fact that no time limit is specified for filling the vacancy for other offices is rather conspicuous by its absence. You can bet that the Democratic party committee is going to milk that apparent loophole for everything it's worth, and we might well see the vacancy filled just before the polls open the morning of the election, or maybe one minute before the polls close.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
31
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"Forcing someone to nominate" means forcing the party to nominate IF the law so required; that would be fulfilling their obligation under the law

The point is that election law has no such jurisdiction over their persons.

Think of it as a carnival ride, where the operator decides who may be on it and the methods of valid entry. He can say, "Keep your hands and feet within the ride. Those who do not will be kicked out." To describe a method of gaining entry to the ride, he can say, "If a child is kicked off, his parent shall designate a replacement for the vacancy." He cannot force the parent to designate a replacement -- he has power over the ride, not the parent. All it describes is that there is a singular legal method which can be used to designate a replacement. If it isn't used, it isn't used, and the space remains vacant. There's no need to add, "the parent, if he or she so chooses, shall designate a replacement," since the bounds of his jurisdiction never covered taking away that discretion. He is the gatekeeper -- he can say, "You are over 30 inches tall, so you can get on," or, "You are under 30 inches tall, so you may not get on." He can't say, "You are over 30 inches tall, so you must get on," with any legal force.

The government regulating a thing does not mean that all participants become conscripts utterly beholden to some principle. You can get off the ride.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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Democrats should find someone named Pat Roberts like the Republican candidate and nominate that person.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Democrats should find someone named Pat Roberts like the Republican candidate and nominate that person.
Not a bad idea. But maybe someone named Ted Cruz would be better; less likely to attract Democratic votes and more likely to attract Republican votes.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Kansas is sending a 'disclaimer' with the ballots stating that there may be another ballot later and that if you send in both ballots, the 'replacement' ballot will be the one that counts. How would you know what was counted?

Also, the guy over voting in Kansas has asked the the election in Kansas be pushed from the 4th to the 12th.

Yep, that's going to happen.....lol.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You'll notice that nothing in the law specifies WHEN a vacancy must be filled by the "party committee of the . . . state." The law merely says that the vacancy "shall be filled." The 10-day rule mentioned elsewhere in the statute applies only only to "a district office or for the office of member of the state board of education." Thus, the fact that no time limit is specified for filling the vacancy for other offices is rather conspicuous by its absence. You can bet that the Democratic party committee is going to milk that apparent loophole for everything it's worth, and we might well see the vacancy filled just before the polls open the morning of the election, or maybe one minute before the polls close.

Or they'll just giggle & blow it out their ass, smirk contentedly.

What's the penalty if they don't comply?

Hint- it'll never get that far because it'll never get to the Kansas Supreme Court before Kobach has to mail all the absentee ballots. They knew that when they ruled in the first place.

In case Kobach didn't notice, they already dick-slapped him up the side of his mouth.

The message? "Get lost, twit."
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
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Democrats should find someone named Pat Roberts like the Republican candidate and nominate that person.

I was thinking they should find a Ronald Reagan and put him for the Ds.

Or just have him change his name like that sleazeball republican in AZ ( or was it Tx?)
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You'll notice that nothing in the law specifies WHEN a vacancy must be filled by the "party committee of the . . . state." The law merely says that the vacancy "shall be filled." The 10-day rule mentioned elsewhere in the statute applies only only to "a district office or for the office of member of the state board of education." Thus, the fact that no time limit is specified for filling the vacancy for other offices is rather conspicuous by its absence. You can bet that the Democratic party committee is going to milk that apparent loophole for everything it's worth, and we might well see the vacancy filled just before the polls open the morning of the election, or maybe one minute before the polls close.
That's true. The Democrat Committee already said they're doing nothing unless and until SCOKAN forces them to do so. I suppose we'll see. It's pretty obvious that SCOKAN is in the tank for the Dems here, so I'm still doubting a replacement happens.

Also shows that familiarity breeds contempt. I'm betting that none of the justices were both appointed and approved by Democrats, so it's the Pubbies' own team spanking them.

Democrats should find someone named Pat Roberts like the Republican candidate and nominate that person.
That would be freakin' hysterical.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
That's true. The Democrat Committee already said they're doing nothing unless and until SCOKAN forces them to do so. I suppose we'll see. It's pretty obvious that SCOKAN is in the tank for the Dems here, so I'm still doubting a replacement happens.

Also shows that familiarity breeds contempt. I'm betting that none of the justices were both appointed and approved by Democrats, so it's the Pubbies' own team spanking them.

I think that the SCOKAN just struck a blow for common sense & decency, that's all. Any candidate who wants to withdraw has that right, regardless of the law. The notion that Dems now have to appoint another candidate also falls on the wrong side of that line, as well.

I don't think their motivations in this matter are partisan in the slightest.

That can't be said for Kobach, a "rising star" doing his best to tap into big money down the road.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,862
7,393
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I think that the SCOKAN just struck a blow for common sense & decency, that's all. Any candidate who wants to withdraw has that right, regardless of the law. The notion that Dems now have to appoint another candidate also falls on the wrong side of that line, as well.

I don't think their motivations in this matter are partisan in the slightest.

That can't be said for Kobach, a "rising star" doing his best to tap into big money down the road.


Seems SOP for politicians to do such things nowadays, but I have to hand it to Kobach for going way above and beyond the call of brown nosing and into the realm of selling his soul for the chance to have the Koch Bros. et al anoint him as another one of their "exploitable minions".

I rate his shenanigans right up there with Joe Barton's apology to BP for the Obama administration's "shakedown" of the company to have them pay for damages from the Gulf oil spill.

A complete unabashed and blatant sellout in both instances.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,494
26,516
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Quick update:

Shanwee County Court panel rules that Democrats do not have to name a replacement candidate.

http://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/election/article2421185.html

A panel of three Shawnee County District Court judges said a state election law does not require Democrats to fill the candidate vacancy. The judges also said the disgruntled voter who sued the state Democratic Party and three of its top officials failed “to provide evidence to sustain it” by refusing to participate in the only hearing in the case Monday.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
What's next in this circus? Please don't tell me GOP is going to stop entertaining us with their stupidity.

They were fukololo the moment Taylor withdrew & anybody with a lick of sense knew it.

Kobach's epic sniveling was designed to ingratiate him to big money right wing donors.

The results of their own policy dictate that they deserve to lose.