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Update Homeowner Guns down girl chasing her in back alley she said she was pregnant

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Senior member
Jan 21, 2014
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The Police have made an announcement about this story (already linked to in my previous post, towards the end of the video story).

They are saying that at least one of the shots was INSIDE the (his) house, which if I understand American law, is fine (self defence).
The guy screwed up by not killing her with that first shot.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
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Isn't there a law that says that if you're committing a felony, you also will be charged with any deaths that arise due to the actions of the felony? Wouldn't the breaking/entering/beating up an old man be a felony? Thus, the girl that died or her partner would be the ones charged?
her partner was charged actually

Long Beach Man Arrested in Connection with Tuesday Night Burglary Charged with Robbery, Murder
...
Adams is being held on $1 million bail for residential robbery and murder, since he was involved in the events that led up to Miller's death, McDonnell said.
http://lbpost.com/news/crime/2000004059-long-beach-man-arrested-in-connection-with-tuesday-night-burglary-in-bixby-knolls#.U9LKl-NdV8E
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,861
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The homeowner may also be charged:

"Greer was interviewed by police after the incident, and the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office will decide if he will be charged with Miller's death, McDonnell said. It is unknown how many shots were fired."

And:

"Because the shooting occurred outside the home, the legalities of the shooting are uncertain, McDonnell said. He also said it was not yet known if the guns were registered in Greer's name."
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,440
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Isn't there a law that says that if you're committing a felony, you also will be charged with any deaths that arise due to the actions of the felony? Wouldn't the breaking/entering/beating up an old man be a felony? Thus, the girl that died or her partner would be the ones charged?
At some point you have to consider the connection too tenuous. For example, let's say someone embezzles a million dollars from a company and his wife finds out and kills herself because she's so upset. The man committed a felony, someone died who wouldn't have if he hadn't committed the felony, but you can't very well blame the man for the suicide. Felony murder is about determining when the felon should or should not be accountable, not merely if a connection can be drawn between the crime and the death. Or at least it should be, unfortunately I think the court errs too much away from this.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Isn't there a law that says that if you're committing a felony, you also will be charged with any deaths that arise due to the actions of the felony? Wouldn't the breaking/entering/beating up an old man be a felony? Thus, the girl that died or her partner would be the ones charged?
In California yes there is a law that allows prosecutors to charge a suspect with the death of any person as a result of when the was a crime committed.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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At some point you have to consider the connection too tenuous. For example, let's say someone embezzles a million dollars from a company and his wife finds out and kills herself because she's so upset. The man committed a felony, someone died who wouldn't have if he hadn't committed the felony, but you can't very well blame the man for the suicide. Felony murder is about determining when the felon should or should not be accountable, not merely if a connection can be drawn between the crime and the death. Or at least it should be, unfortunately I think the court errs too much away from this.
I agree there are situations when the connect is very tenuous to prove in court however there are some very clear cut examples such as the aforementioned bank robbery example that occurred in West Stockton. Or these other examples in which someone would be charged with the death of another person even if they did not pull a trigger, stab someone or put that person in a situation where death was the outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFpPUM_KX8E#t=40

After a defendant lights a car on fire (thereby committing the felony of
arson), the fire spreads to a nearby house, killing someone who is inside.


Two defendants, one of them armed with a gun, commit a robbery of a convenience store. The defendant holding the gun accidentally fires it, and the bullet bounces off the ceiling and hits a store clerk, killing her. Both defendants (even the one not holding the gun) may be charged with murder under the felony-murder rule.4


A defendant kidnaps an elderly woman (violating Penal Code 207 PC, California's kidnapping law) for ransom. He does not inflict any physical harm or force on her . . . but in her fear she suffers a heart attack and dies. This defendant also may be charged with murder under the felony-murder rule.5

http://www.shouselaw.com/felony-murder.html
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,440
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I wouldn't say that felony murder charges never make sense or that it should be done away with entirely, I simply feel that in this case - where the killing was under the victim's control and was not necessary to avoid any real damage - it simply shouldn't apply. I also don't agree that the burglary was still underway after the woman had left into the alley.

Not only do I think that the blame is disproportionate to the offense, but it's scary what kind of power this gives someone in Greer's position. He sounds like he wanted to punish the guy who ran away as much as he wanted to punish the woman he shot. So not only did he kill the female accomplice but he increased the charges to something much worse. So someone in his position has more incentive to kill a person just to hurt the other criminal more. That should not be encouraged.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of precedent of felony murder happening for similar situations. I still think it's crazy.

And then there are cases like these where it goes totally off the rails: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/us/04felony.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
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dude is 80 anyway and has lived most of his life. even if he goes to jail I salute him for putting 2 robbers away.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,474
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Imagine this case from the parents point of view. If your son or daughter were pranking some old dude for fun and profit, how upset would you be if he murdered them?
A-not murder
B-im sure I'd be upset but that's why we don't have lynch mob justice in this country.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,474
2
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He knew he was going to kill her with the 2nd shot, per the information given.

That's pretty much the definition of premeditation

pre·med·i·tate
primedtt,pr-/Submit
verb
past tense: premeditated; past participle: premeditated
think out or plan (an action, especially a crime) beforehand.
This is exactly the idiocy I was talking about thank you for providing us a reference example to discuss.

Please elaborate on the planning that the defendant committed to satisfy the premeditation.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,440
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dude is 80 anyway and has lived most of his life. even if he goes to jail I salute him for putting 2 robbers away.
He could have probably gotten the woman taken away in police custody without shooting her. She feared he was going to shoot and would have probably agreed to stay still and wait for the police in order to get him to not shoot. And if she was caught it would have led to the capture of her accomplice, just like it did after she was shot.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,399
1,510
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He could have probably gotten the woman taken away in police custody without shooting her. She feared he was going to shoot and would have probably agreed to stay still and wait for the police in order to get him to not shoot. And if she was caught it would have led to the capture of her accomplice, just like it did after she was shot.
and then they both would've been back on the street committing crimes again in a few weeks due to prison overcrowding.

now one is dead and the other will be in prison for a long time. no more crimes.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,440
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and then they both would've been back on the street committing crimes again in a few weeks due to prison overcrowding.
I strongly doubt that. There are a ton of better candidates to let out of prison than the violent elder abusers who have just been sentenced (or are still awaiting trial).

I mean, you obviously think that there's room for him (and for a much longer duration) because of someone else's murder.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,399
1,510
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I strongly doubt that. There are a ton of better candidates to let out of prison than the violent elder abusers who have just been sentenced (or are still awaiting trial).

I mean, you obviously think that there's room for him (and for a much longer duration) because of someone else's murder.
i most certainly think that non-violent drug offenders (for instance) should be released from prison before violent robbers.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,440
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i most certainly think that non-violent drug offenders (for instance) should be released from prison before violent robbers.
So do I, and most likely so does California, if and when they actually start releasing prisoners due to overcrowding (last I heard they're still delaying the decision). They're also a lot more likely to release someone who has already served a substantial portion of his or her sentence over someone who just finished their trial.
 
Jan 25, 2011
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This is exactly the idiocy I was talking about thank you for providing us a reference example to discuss.

Please elaborate on the planning that the defendant committed to satisfy the premeditation.
You might want to tone down calling others out for idiocy. I say that as planning is not needed for first degree murder. Premeditation can be defined a few ways. There isn't a requirement to plan that is mandatory. Only sufficient time to form a conscious decision to kill is needed. If enough time has passed for a "reasonable person" to second guess the decision then that can be sufficient.

It really has to be looked at on a case by case basis.
 
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Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,399
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So do I, and most likely so does California, if and when they actually start releasing prisoners due to overcrowding (last I heard they're still delaying the decision). They're also a lot more likely to release someone who has already served a substantial portion of his or her sentence over someone who just finished their trial.
they release prisoners due to overcrowding daily, not sure what you're talking about.

lots of hit n run murderers out on the street after serving single digit %'s of their sentence.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
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She would have to prove it to a jury's satisfaction, yes. There is no automatic conviction. But the way the laws are written it's a very low wall to jump.
I'd imagine it would be, usually when instigating a crime like they were all kinds of things can be manipulated legally.

Personally, I'd give him a medal and send him home, but I'm not the legal system.
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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He also said it was not yet known if the guns were registered in Greer's name."
Things must vary I guess, I actually went to a police station when I first moved to FL in 1991 and asked about registering guns, I even had one I'd bought off someone else and was still in his name I believe.

I kind of got a "don't worry about it" response.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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You beat me to it.

Also here is a bit more info on the how it went down. Seems like the shooting started inside the home (after they beat the old dude up and broke his collar bone) first and then ended outside.

Tom Greer told police he came home Tuesday night and found two suspects, identified as 28-year-old Andrea Miller and 26-year-old Gus Adams, burglarizing his house near Terrylynn Place and Country Club Drive.

"(The suspects) jump on him, as he describes, and they beat him with fists, and then throw him, body slam him, basically, on to the floor," said Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell.

Greer had a broken collarbone, cuts and bruises from the attack.

"They leave him, basically I think, believing he's not a threat. He is able to get up. At that point, he goes into another room, retrieves a gun and comes back and confronts them once again," McDonnell said.

As the suspects fled, Greer opened fire on them inside and outside the home, hitting Miller as she fled into an alley.
I wonder if they were meth heads.

Pics of the two burglars/robbers.

 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,981
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Someone breaks into a house with people in it expect to be killed.

I don't need you getting angry I called the police and then have you stalk me.

Especially after they already hurt him and disarmed him.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,474
2
0
You might want to tone down calling others out for idiocy. I say that as planning is not needed for first degree murder. Premeditation can be defined a few ways. There isn't a requirement to plan that is mandatory. Only sufficient time to form a conscious decision to kill is needed. If enough time has passed for a "reasonable person" to second guess the decision then that can be sufficient.

It really has to be looked at on a case by case basis.
"Enough time to reconsider pulling the trigger" =/= premeditation.
 
Jan 25, 2011
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"Enough time to reconsider pulling the trigger" =/= premeditation.
California Supreme Court, People v Harris

A verdict of deliberate and premeditated first degree murder requires more than a showing of intent to kill. Deliberation refers to careful weighing of considerations in forming a course of action; premeditation means thought over in advance.

"The process of premeditation and deliberation does not require any extended period of time. The true test is not the duration of time as much as it is the extent of the reflection. Thoughts may follow each other with great rapidity and cold, calculated judgment may be arrived at quickly.
 

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