Update: Got it! Used car questions - 2001 Volvo S80 T6

Kaido

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Feb 14, 2004
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Update: Got it! http://i.imgur.com/vm5G8i7.jpg

Looking into a used, but well-maintained 2001 Volvo S80 T6 with 180K miles. It's a twin-turbo automatic. Has a new timing belt and a few other things (front struts, upper engine mounts, water pump & thermostat, radiator). I've read online these are expensive to maintain. At 180K on the clock already, what kind of maintenance am I looking at next?
 
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phucheneh

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Jun 30, 2012
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Wait, let me elaborate: no.

An S80 of that gen is one of the least reliable things Volvo has ever made. In the case of that TT I6, it's the worst in a wide array of similar 4-6cyl inline engines in their cars. With a terrible trans that I would say has a 98% chance of not being original at 180k. If it is, run; it's a time-bomb.

The big thing is the year. A 1999 S80 is way worse than a 2005 S80, even though they pretty much look identical. Gradual changes to the electrical system and ECU's gradually smoothed out the problems on those cars a good bit.

Oh, also: the struts aren't as needed as the strut MOUNTS (whole upper strut cap is rubber), along with lower control arm bushings. There is only one upper engine mount; the torque mount that takes about ten minutes to replace. Too bad about the water pump; the already-worn Volvo ones will last longer than the aftermarket ones that have replaced them.

And the timing belt is a 105k item. Did it get a second one early, or did it get its first one at close to this mileage? My guess would be RUN. ;P
 
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Kaido

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Wait, let me elaborate: no.

An S80 of that gen is one of the least reliable things Volvo has ever made. In the case of that TT I6, it's the worst in a wide array of similar 4-6cyl inline engines in their cars. With a terrible trans that I would say has a 98% chance of not being original at 180k. If it is, run; it's a time-bomb.

The big thing is the year. A 1999 S80 is way worse than a 2005 S80, even though they pretty much look identical. Gradual changes to the electrical system and ECU's gradually smoothed out the problems on those cars a good bit.

Oh, also: the struts aren't as needed as the strut MOUNTS (whole upper strut cap is rubber), along with lower control arm bushings. There is only one upper engine mount; the torque mount that takes about ten minutes to replace. Too bad about the water pump; the already-worn Volvo ones will last longer than the aftermarket ones that have replaced them.

And the timing belt is a 105k item. Did it get a second one early, or did it get its first one at close to this mileage? My guess would be RUN. ;P

So I'd be looking at possibly a new transmission & timing belt, and doing the strut mounts & lower control arm bushings? Anything else major, and anything specifically bad about the car? I'll be checking it out tomorrow; never had a Volvo, don't know anything about them other than their reputation for diehard bodies.

Also, forgot to post the year - it's a 2001 model.
 

Kaido

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Wow, seems to be a huge amount of transmission problems in the pre-2004 S80 models, apparently the tranny was made by GM? Seeing them break down from 40k to 200k miles in forum posts! A quick search online says about $5k to replace or about $2.5-3k to rebuild. If a rebuild would fix it, I could factor that into the cost (private party sale), but some people are saying they're on their third or fourth transmission...ouch!
 

phucheneh

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Yes, trans is a GM. I believe it was essentially the only offering with their needed specs at the time. First FWD I6 as far as I know; the converter housing has to be really short with of course chain-driven guts. It was a mediocre trans. Maybe even 'half-decent.' But Volvo was at its limitations of power and weight with the S80. When they put it in the XC90, they really crapped the bed. 60-80k was the typical lifespan.

I've seen NA I6 S80's of that vintage go between 150-200k on that trans. The turbo I6's usually don't last far beyond 100k. I believe they eventually used the 5cyl sometime after 2000. It had an AW tranny that is fairly decent. They had some issues with the AW 5 speed in some of those cars, too, though.

All the major issues other than the trans are electrical. Check all the climate control function, check the sunroof, all the locks and windows...I would even find a gravel road and check the ABS function. Their ABS controllers go out frequently, and sometimes won't set a light until they try and function. Sometimes they'll just go nuts and knock out the highspeed network with the engine and trans computers.
 

postmortemIA

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Got one with over 160k, still on the original transmission. Transmission does not appear to be a problem yet. Still shifting well. However, zillion other problems happened with various electric and electronic modules. Stay away of these unless you are Volvo mechanic.
 

Kaido

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All the major issues other than the trans are electrical. Check all the climate control function, check the sunroof, all the locks and windows...I would even find a gravel road and check the ABS function. Their ABS controllers go out frequently, and sometimes won't set a light until they try and function. Sometimes they'll just go nuts and knock out the highspeed network with the engine and trans computers.

Sounds like a pretty terrible car :biggrin:

The car has service records available, so I'll look through and see what was done. Appearance-wise, it's immaculate, like showroom-new immaculate. From reading online, it doesn't appear that 100% of the cars have these issues, but from what you're describing, it's more of a matter of time rather than a hit-or-miss, correct?

Asking price is $4K, if that makes any difference. I would say if I could get the transmission rebuilt for $3K or so, that'd be a slick car, but if the rebuild (or replacement) transmission is just going to crap out due to poor design, then that wouldn't be worth the investment. Drivetrain.com offers an extended warranty on their rebuilds (up to 5 years, unlimited mileage); the '99's listed go between $3K and $5k with the 5-year warranty:

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_cat...matics/volvo_automatic_transmissions.html#S80

Any idea how much installation would cost? If I could get a warrantied rebuild for $3K plus maybe $2K for installation and be covered for 5 years, that might work. Unless it craps out again and I have to pay for another tranny install :rolleyes:
 

Ketchup

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Sep 1, 2002
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Sounds like a pretty terrible car :biggrin:... Asking price is $4K, if that makes any difference.
It does to me. If somehow we could ignore the information from phucheneh (which in reality I find quite difficult) look at the asking price.

The asking price is between fair and poor condition, according to kbb. To me, that car is probably a piece of junk someone is trying to get rid of.

This is especially true considering phucheneh's information.

My recommendation: look at something else. You could easily be putting more than that up-front 4k into a vehicle with these types of issues.
 

Kaido

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It does to me. If somehow we could ignore the information from phucheneh (which in reality I find quite difficult) look at the asking price.

The asking price is between fair and poor condition, according to kbb. To me, that car is probably a piece of junk someone is trying to get rid of.

This is especially true considering phucheneh's information.

My recommendation: look at something else. You could easily be putting more than that up-front 4k into a vehicle with these types of issues.

I just got back from checking it out. Gorgeous condition. No hint of transmission problems yet. 10 years of service history, every single recommendation followed. He just did the 170k maintenance, $6k total over the last year, about $3k a year average in service. Highway miles - business professional. Lives around the corner from me, all his vehicles are immaculate.

How quickly would a transmission problem crop up?
 

Ketchup

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Sep 1, 2002
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I just got back from checking it out. Gorgeous condition. No hint of transmission problems yet. 10 years of service history, every single recommendation followed. He just did the 170k maintenance, $6k total over the last year, about $3k a year average in service. Highway miles - business professional. Lives around the corner from me, all his vehicles are immaculate.

How quickly would a transmission problem crop up?

Wow, that is surprising, in a good way. Have no idea about the tranny. I am not sure which GM tranny they used. The last one that game me a problem was the 700-R4, and that was only when the lockup on the torque converter started acting up, and that was an easy "fix."
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
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Holy electrical gremlins batman. According to this thread I wouldn't even consider it.

Got one with over 160k, still on the original transmission. Transmission does not appear to be a problem yet. Still shifting well. However, zillion other problems happened with various electric and electronic modules. Stay away of these unless you are Volvo mechanic.

Even if you are a Volvo mechanic, do you want to be working on your own car or someone else's car? Someone else's car = profit. Your car = no profit.

Step 1: Buy something more reliable.
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit.
 

phucheneh

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So it is actually a '99?

I've seen ones in decent aesthetic shape go at auction for like a grand. Owners of little used car lots think they're the deal of the century. Then they find out they're wrong.

No lights on in this car? ABS, CEL? ...did you check to make sure the bulbs are working?
 

phucheneh

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Jun 30, 2012
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P.S. I worked on Volvos and if I was going to own one (even if I still worked on them daily), it would be post-P2.

2004.5 S40 and up, and the associated bigger cars. S80 and V70 switched around 07-08.

The S60 lasted the longest. If you're in love with that gen, IMO it's the car to have. Moving past 04-05, it might've even been a downright good car. I mean, I like everything about the car other that the reliability; but they really did kinda get it together towards the end of that platform (the mentioned P2, which started in '99). Again, they look damn similar every way, including under the hood, but the parts just weren't failing like they did on cars just a few years older. Wasn't dropping tons of ABS modules, steering wheel modules, door modules, throttle modules...various...modules...into them. Wasn't seeing wiring issues and/or unstable CAN networks.

But the newer stuff is overall better. Earlier S40's (but after the <2005 Mitsu models) had some quirks, but they generally got addressed, as well, and the S80 redesign was probably the smoothest model launch they'd had in a long time.

Otherwise, 850 > 240 >>>>>>>>>>> S80. Yeah, I know, 240's are cool but I think the 850 was a better car. And not slower than old people fucking in molasses.
 

Kaido

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So it is actually a '99?

I've seen ones in decent aesthetic shape go at auction for like a grand. Owners of little used car lots think they're the deal of the century. Then they find out they're wrong.

No lights on in this car? ABS, CEL? ...did you check to make sure the bulbs are working?

It's a 2001 twin-turbo. Brought a gearhead buddy with me to look it over. Zero rust, I believe is was always garaged. Complete service history. The current owner did everything the shop recommended. Engine ran perfectly.

So, the scary part is the bad rap the car has. Is it for 100% of them? Is it for some, but not others? Is it a design flaw that will eventually affect all cars? I don't know. On the flip side, the car is (1) meticulously-kept appearance-wise, (2) extremely well-maintained, and (3) has no history of any transmission problems. So, either we're good to go, or it's a time-bomb waiting to blow. I saw nothing that would indicate any kind of problems.

Short-term, it seems like a great deal. Long-term, there's a possibility the transmission blows and I'm dead in the water. And then the replacement transmission is garbage as well. Or, maybe, the car is good and will last another 20K+ miles. I lease now (around $3K a year), so if the car lasted just over a year and change, then I'd get my money's worth out of it. Or maybe I get a gem and it lasts awhile.

Test-drive tomorrow!
 

phucheneh

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A trans can last awhile in those. You are apparently observing proof of that. Did they do trans services? I honestly don't know if that really even helps those, or if the survivors are only such because they're churning original fluid. What did the trans fluid look like? Smell like? Taste like? ...Okay, don't taste it.

I don't think the 'original fluid' hypothesis could work...unfortunately, that would probably result in valve body problems. These transmissions really did seem to not fail in any specific way. They just...died. They quit shifting, or one gear quit pulling, or all gears quit pulling...sometimes it was a friction member, sometimes it was a control part. I remember that GM had to restart manufacturing because Volvo was running out of casings to make remans with...can't remember why, though. Porosity, maybe? I don't think they ever blew gears out the side or anything crazy like that.

If you're really considering this car:

Turn key on and double check that all warning lights come on for self-test. This is definitely the kind of car someone would disconnect the CEL on. I strongly recommend having someone with Volvo diag software (pretty much 'dealers') check it. I would recommend an inspection from the dealer, period, actually.

Some coworkers would not have agreed, but I liked doing one-hour used car inspections. As the name implies, it's an hour of labor. I'd do a test drive and then spend 30 mins casually looking the car over. Easy money, and then there's the chance that either the owner or the prospective buyer will want to do some of the work. The $100 that most places will charge might seem kinda steep just to look at something, but it's money well spent. The service writer and mechanic are not salesmen, so if they have a bit of experience in those cars, they should be able to give you some decent advice on that specific vehicle.

The big thing, though, it hooking up with the a laptop and checking the network for issues. And to retrieve your two pages of DTC's. You actually want this; they're mostly trash codes. If it's squeaky clean, someone has cleared everything recently. It would be good that no codes immediately reappeared, but unlikely to stay that way for long.

There are a few things under the hood that you want to be sure get a look. Take the intake tubing off near the turbo outlets. Look for large quantities of oil. If present, it's coming from the turbos; the greater the quantity, the greater the play you'll have in the turbine shafts/bearings.

Oil starvation can also be a problem. ANY noise from the turbos is bad. They are tiny and do not generate much in the realm of performance 'turbo noises.' At idle, you should not hear them.

Also check for positive crankcase pressure. You should have none. If you pull the oil dipstick and put your finger over the tube, it should be a neutral pressure at worst. That means the oil trap is partially plugged. A new one WILL allow negative pressure within the crankcase, even on boosted engines.

Look for oil underneath the car. The engine is aluminum from cam cover to oil pan, and should be sealed without gaskets. It's all machined surfaces with a dab of a proprietary sealer. If they have not been fucked with, they do not leak.

The turbo oil returns, however, do. There should be improved green gaskets on the turbo flange and around the bottom of the drain tubes. They never leak. If they're black...well, you can't tell, because they're leaking. These seem deceptively simple to replace, but require removing a ton of shit and will eat your goddamned lunch.

Hit the panic button and make sure you hear the alarm siren. Not just the horn; there's also a siren in the passenger fender. They get water in them and die. It would not matter, but they can knock out the UEM's mini network and make the keyless entry and sunroof not work...that's the upper electronic module...with its own local network...a network within a network (low speed CAN) within a network (entire CAN). To elaborate...low speed modules can malfunction and dick up the entire low speed side (everything behind the CEM). Everything ahead of the CEM is the high speed (ECM, TCM, ABS, ETM) and can dick up the high speed network. This is bad; the engine and trans computers can 'go offline' and the engine goes into limp-in. The ECM is functioning, but not communicating, and needs to be...rebooted...

Also the CEM is part of both networks (fun) and the 'ETM' is basically the computer attached to the throttle body that is its own seperate entity and talks to the ECM digitally.

Oh wait, have I not mentioned throttles yet? HA!

Sorry...but yeah, you might want to look into the throttle issues, as well. And look up the warranty history on that car. That car has only been out of throttle warranty for two or three years.
 
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Kaido

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Feb 14, 2004
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If you're really considering this car:

Wow, thanks for the info! So basically:

1. Inspect the car
2. Take it to a mechanic for a used-car inspection
3. Get a CarFax on it

It seems like they have massive amounts of problems...on the flip side, KBB value is $5400, so I could always trade it in on something else and probably get an extra ground out of the deal. I've been planning on leasing an Altima (currently $0 down, $265 a month for the 2.5 S model), so even if they gave me $5K, that would basically cut my monthly lease payment in half, which would also be cool.
 

phucheneh

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Carfax is shit. Get it if you want, but don't rely on it. I was referring to having the dealer look up the history on it. You will see all work performed under warranty. There will be throttle stuff there. Hopefully it got a new one at some point, the later the better, and probably also had at least one other seperate software upgrade.

Let a Volvo dealer inspect it, because you need their software to talk to the CAN network and get DTC's from ALL control modules.
 

Kaido

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Carfax is crap. Get it if you want, but don't rely on it. I was referring to having the dealer look up the history on it. You will see all work performed under warranty. There will be throttle stuff there. Hopefully it got a new one at some point, the later the better, and probably also had at least one other seperate software upgrade.

Let a Volvo dealer inspect it, because you need their software to talk to the CAN network and get DTC's from ALL control modules.

Is there a way to tell if the transmission is going to go soon?
 

phucheneh

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Drivability issues, burnt fluid, DTC's. If the TCM has any, they'll be either solenoid codes (sometimes fixable but usually go along with a trans on its way out) or for incorrect gear ratio (slipping).
 

tracerbullet

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Feb 22, 2001
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FWIW, several times in my life I've bought cars that I thought "oh good the previous owner put some money into it and fixed everything, now it's perfect", only to realize the truth was "the previous owner put some more money into it after all the other money he put into it and finally decided to sell the POS to someone else - me".

It's not a ton of money, you won't get totally screwed at least. It's awesome phucheneh is helping, I'd have stopped at no no no based also on friend's experiences with old Volvos which has been miserable. Specifically electrical, and leaks (valve cover gaskets, power steering pumps, master cylinders, etc.).
 

manimal

Lifer
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Phucheneh has pretty much said everything that needs to be said about these things. Early ones worse. Get marginally better. Poop trans
 

phucheneh

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THIS!

and you want a nice volvo go for the S60 love those cars comfortable.

They're pretty much the same car. The intro S60 is better than the intro S80, but not hugely. They got better with time, peaking around 05, near the end of the equivalent S80's life. But they kept the S60 going for a few years more and those cars are pretty refined. It also doesn't hurt that they're newer; but I expect less problems out them at ten years old than what I've seen in these early S80's.

For S80, '01 is actually not that bad; IIRC the biggest issues (other than the trans, which never really got fixed) were in the 99-00 models with '01 being where you start to see differences in parts and whatnot...an electronic part may look externally the same on these cars, but the parts catalog might list two, three, maybe more different part numbers for 99-06, depending on when your particular S80 was built.

Summation:
99-00 < 01-03 < 04-06

I think. I don't remember if the newer split was at 04 or 05. But it's generally 'decent > meh > run.'

Also obligatory R-car. 'The one worth owning.' Although probably not, 'cause they kinda demand too much premium. Better bang/buck with a manual T5, if you can find one (I've seen maybe two).

2005-volvo-s60-r-r-pic-18938.jpeg.jpg
 

postmortemIA

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Oh wait, have I not mentioned throttles yet? HA!

Sorry...but yeah, you might want to look into the throttle issues, as well. And look up the warranty history on that car. That car has only been out of throttle warranty for two or three years.

I have experienced the throttle problem ... twice. Another thing guaranteed to fail, as the module has design flaw.

There are 2 solutions for fly-by-wire problem: cleaning the residue, or replacement. If first solution was used, it is likely that needs to be done again.

http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/volvos-electronic-throttle-module-fiasco