UPDATE: Five students shot at Ohio high school, three killed

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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,480
8,340
126
Why can kids not fight back anymore? I missed that step in your argument?

Zero tolerance policies in schools. If you fight back you get in trouble too. Combine that with parents that get mad at their kids for getting in trouble and kids will just take the abuse while the school does nothing.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
76
Zero tolerance policies in schools. If you fight back you get in trouble too. Combine that with parents that get mad at their kids for getting in trouble and kids will just take the abuse while the school does nothing.

Craziness, that's not the way it worked for me, or they way my old school currently operates, if there's a fight, then they assertion who was responsible and punish that person, not the person defending themselves.

I once got into a fight at school, someone tried to hit me, missed, so I stepped away, so then he turned to my best friend and punched him, so I turned back and punched him in the face, he was knocked to the ground, by the time he got up a teacher was there to break it up, we both were taken into the teachers office to explain ourselves, we explained, it was clear he was the problem, I said "I realise I shouldn't punch people, but if the situation happened again I would do exactly the same thing" the teacher said "Fair enough then" and that was it, he got suspended, I went back to lessons.

My parents were fine with it, and that's the way the world and school should work.

Happy Birthday!
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
8,793
5
76
The sad part is the parents don't own up to it. They almost always.. put the blame on movies, games, etc. They never blame the kids.. nor themselves.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
76
One interesting aspect of this case, making it slightly more unique, is that is wasn't a murder suicide, it was just a murder case, so the gunman can be interviewed... I'll be interesting to see the results of that, if they are made public.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Jesus... this kind of thing scares the hell out of me as a parent. Horrible situation for all involved. :'(

I'm teaching my son to shoot and to respect firearms and the rules of handling them safely but he absolutely will NOT have access to any of them without my supervision until he is old enough to legally own his own guns if he even wants to own them. That I'll leave up to him when the time comes.

:thumbsup:

I'm all for getting kids involved with firearms as early as possible. More specifically, when it is most appropriate for the child in question, and only if they continue to express interest should "instruction" really continue (beyond basic respect for the awesome power that can be produced by such a small device).

But free, unsupervised access should only occur when sufficiently mature enough. What age you consider this, imho, should depend entirely on the child in question. When I was late high-school/early college, I had knowledge of our firearms in the house, and knew what parts of the puzzle were where (ammo and weapons in different locations but fairly close). When they were not taken out (rarely) to fire when visiting a farm, I understood them for one purpose: property defense. Nobody even had to tell me that, but I don't even think of them. Only when I heard our dog barking (more intensely than usual) did those firearms even enter into thought, and I already basically had a plan of grab phone, run into parents room and grab weapon, and defend through assault. :D
Never even needed to do any of that. However, perhaps it should have at least been practiced, so as to not fumble around when it really mattered. :hmm:
Our weapons weren't secured, and perhaps that something to really consider. My dad is somewhat old-school though, and the way I see it (and the way I might approach it as a father, if/when it comes to such), it is just how things are. Hell, I'm not really sure I'd want weapons completely locked down, at least, not every single one. Maybe a gun safe would be good for rifles and other weapons, but having to get into a safe before you can properly arm yourself when someone is in the house, seems like a dangerous waste of time. And thus, somewhere a handgun should be "out" (not secured in safe/locked), but hidden, and the magazine somewhere else, with ammo stored separately (possibly where a full magazine would be stored).
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,480
8,340
126
I had access to firearms freely in my house since I could remember. Nothing was locked up.

I was taking hunting/firearm safety courses when I was 9 or 10 and was shooting rifles and shotguns even before that. I think I was 5 or 6 when I had my first BB gun. I grew up hunting and respecting firearms and never once thought of using them for anything other than hunting or target practice in approved places. It's the same as a car really. Keys were always there for the taking, but I never felt the urge to go joy riding with it. They were just tools for appropriate uses.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,528
908
126
:thumbsup:

I'm all for getting kids involved with firearms as early as possible. More specifically, when it is most appropriate for the child in question, and only if they continue to express interest should "instruction" really continue (beyond basic respect for the awesome power that can be produced by such a small device).

But free, unsupervised access should only occur when sufficiently mature enough. What age you consider this, imho, should depend entirely on the child in question. When I was late high-school/early college, I had knowledge of our firearms in the house, and knew what parts of the puzzle were where (ammo and weapons in different locations but fairly close). When they were not taken out (rarely) to fire when visiting a farm, I understood them for one purpose: property defense. Nobody even had to tell me that, but I don't even think of them. Only when I heard our dog barking (more intensely than usual) did those firearms even enter into thought, and I already basically had a plan of grab phone, run into parents room and grab weapon, and defend through assault. :D
Never even needed to do any of that. However, perhaps it should have at least been practiced, so as to not fumble around when it really mattered. :hmm:
Our weapons weren't secured, and perhaps that something to really consider. My dad is somewhat old-school though, and the way I see it (and the way I might approach it as a father, if/when it comes to such), it is just how things are. Hell, I'm not really sure I'd want weapons completely locked down, at least, not every single one. Maybe a gun safe would be good for rifles and other weapons, but having to get into a safe before you can properly arm yourself when someone is in the house, seems like a dangerous waste of time. And thus, somewhere a handgun should be "out" (not secured in safe/locked), but hidden, and the magazine somewhere else, with ammo stored separately (possibly where a full magazine would be stored).

I can tell you that my son has different friends through our house on a daily basis so leaving a loaded firearm lying around is just a really really really bad idea.

Nope, they are all locked up in a fullsize gun safe that is bolted to the concrete slab of our house. I have the combination memorized and I gave my wife a copy of it and she hid it somewhere she'll never find it again I'm sure.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I had access to firearms freely in my house since I could remember. Nothing was locked up.

I was taking hunting/firearm safety courses when I was 9 or 10 and was shooting rifles and shotguns even before that. I think I was 5 or 6 when I had my first BB gun. I grew up hunting and respecting firearms and never once thought of using them for anything other than hunting or target practice in approved places. It's the same as a car really. Keys were always there for the taking, but I never felt the urge to go joy riding with it. They were just tools for appropriate uses.

Yep. But it seems to require as least decent parenting for youth to understand that, just because we can reach for these things, doesn't mean we can. More importantly, somehow it has to be instilled to the point that it doesn't even cross the mind of the person. Which has more to do with raising a respectful child than it does discipline and specifically instructing right and wrong for every little thing. When you do it right, all those little things like not stealing cars, not killing people, not throwing people off a bridge into a river (I'm sure someone has done that absolutely randomly)... they all just fall into place. :)
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,528
908
126
I had access to firearms freely in my house since I could remember. Nothing was locked up.

I was taking hunting/firearm safety courses when I was 9 or 10 and was shooting rifles and shotguns even before that. I think I was 5 or 6 when I had my first BB gun. I grew up hunting and respecting firearms and never once thought of using them for anything other than hunting or target practice in approved places. It's the same as a car really. Keys were always there for the taking, but I never felt the urge to go joy riding with it. They were just tools for appropriate uses.

Same here, but this was our Step-Dad and all three of us kids feared him. He would have killed us if we ever touched his guns (he had 2 rifles, a .22 and a 30-06). He's the one who taught me to shoot and it was with the .22.

My Mom was only married to him for about a year and a half though, he was an alcoholic with severe depression issues. Ironically, he ended up shooting himself in a failed drunken suicide attempt... great role model he was. :rolleyes:
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,528
908
126
Yep. But it seems to require as least decent parenting for youth to understand that, just because we can reach for these things, doesn't mean we can. More importantly, somehow it has to be instilled to the point that it doesn't even cross the mind of the person. Which has more to do with raising a respectful child than it does discipline and specifically instructing right and wrong for every little thing. When you do it right, all those little things like not stealing cars, not killing people, not throwing people off a bridge into a river (I'm sure someone has done that absolutely randomly)... they all just fall into place. :)

None of you have had teenage kids I take it...
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,078
136
Can't believe teenagers do this to their schools. My teen years weren't great, but I would say that I have a lot more positive memories than bad ones. Never will understand why a teen thinks shooting their classmates will solve their problems.

They arent trying to solve problems. Modern teens have no clue how to solve problems.
They are trying to find a way to express anger and frustration and fear and possibly hate. They are looking for attention, or perhaps something that makes them feel alive, an adrenaline rush.

In other words, teen angst.


We used to just listen to crappy music and beat our skulls against lockers.
I think that was far more healthy.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
None of you have had teenage kids I take it...

I was one, not all that long ago. :p

So, my perspective is going to be a little different, because I am also not that far removed from these generations who are getting all soft. Mine was already decently soft and I've suffered due to it as well.
Some of this is also just the way I was raised and how I saw things at that age.

I had my little things that I got away with, and the trouble-making that I did as a youth either got me in trouble or I found a way to sneak around and even do some things that were definitely morally wrong... but the way I was brought up, there was indirect influence that pointed me the right direction, even when my parents weren't around.

Of course, all of these really is quite specific to each child. Different children need different parenting attitudes and styles, so some need a little more personal attention to put them on the Good for Society and Self road.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
I really think that a lot of the "emo/fuck the world/FML" mentality is due to a lack of positive attention that parents give to children. Either parents are too busy at work and throw a kid in front of a TV or shove them into activies they hate instead of just spending time with them. Or on the other end it's an abusive family where the kid is just constantly physically or mentally knocked down.
I would disagree with this. I wasn't "emo" but I was depressed for a very long time. I have a good family, I went to a good school, I didn't struggle in school. It was all internal. That's just part of growing up. My brother was the total opposite. Nothing could bring him down. He didn't grasp the seriousness of a lot of things. I think one major problem is that people today refuse to admit that being a teen is normal. It is completely 100% normal for teens to:
-feel depressed
-feel alone
-feel invincible
-feel like the centre of the world
-feel like their current situation is more important than it really is
-feel like their current situation is less important than it really is
-make snap decisions

Today, society treats all people as if they were 40 years old. Little 8 year old kid was crying a minute ago but now he's extremely happy after someone hands him a stuffed bear? He must be bipolar. We must put him on medication! Yes that is very bipolar behavior, but it's normal for kids to be bipolar; it goes away with time. It's also normal for teens to feel sad. Instead of parents and teachers saying it's normal for people to feel sad for no reason, they say that it's very unusual to feel sad for no reason. Instead of thinking it's just a phase that will go away, the kid now thinks he has a mental illness that will not go away with time. Now what? Suicide, killing spree, etc. If you thought that your life sucked ass and that it would never improve, you too would go out with a bang.


I'm reminded of the scene from Bowling For Columbine where fat is talking to the creators of South Park. Matt Stone said that the message he always got in school was that school was extremely important. If you fuck this up, your entire life will be a failure, which he points out is the exact opposite of how it really works. People can go from normal depressed to killing spree depressed if you fill their heads with a bunch of bullshit like that.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Canadians would have apologized for being in the path of the bullet, they are oddly polite.

More like government mandate. Self defense is illegal up here. I'm guessing that trying to dodge bullets is illegal too. If someone shoots, you better stand in the way.
/liberal government
 

RadiclDreamer

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2004
8,622
40
91
More like government mandate. Self defense is illegal up here. I'm guessing that trying to dodge bullets is illegal too. If someone shoots, you better stand in the way.
/liberal government

You guys are the good guy greg of countries