UPDATE: Five students shot at Ohio high school, three killed

[HAL9000]

Before everyone gets completely wrapped up in the bullying thing, eyewitness accounts that I heard on their local news channel indicate the victims were students who were considered to be the shooter's friends - people he sat with and hung out with. So bullying might not even be involved here.

Wow, this guy must have had some serious serious emotional issues. That's upsetting and tragic.

 

[destrekor]

Shens. Learning not to be a dick is part of growing up, and sometimes that involves getting shot after being a dick. It's better to shoot them before they have a family that relies on them.



But then who would stop bullying? We've seen that parents and schools are useless when it comes to bullying. Guns are effective almost every time.

Not that I'd exactly agree that every bullying situation is best resolved with weapons, but there is a very good point to that.
We learn, not only from our personal mistakes, but also those of our peers. That's how communal rearing and education actually works, in terms of preparing for life (as noted: school is about far more than pure book-based education) and setting them up for success.
But social Darwinism has always been present in our history as a species - if you see Bob over there continually harass Ed, and then one day witness Ed slaughter Bob, you may or may not learn that harassing someone in that way might not be a good idea.

Of course, how schools handle these things, how they impart the lessons of social interaction, has degraded terribly, and a lot of people really aren't learning the fundamentals behind all of this. It's not "don't be a dick to people because that's wrong", it's become "don't be a dick to people you think are unstable, because they might kill you." As such, these people are still likely to escape formative years healthy and intact, and go on to contribute negatively society in various ways.

But ultimately, if we as a society actually returned to such old times where punishment was far more brutal, to a degree (not stone-throwing or torture-rack style, but public humiliation and more executions [humane, of course]), then so many unfit adults wouldn't proceed to live long enough to have a family and contribute in any way toward society. Sure, you may lose some great thinkers who had made one or two terrible mistakes... but you shed plenty of the unfits who would only degrade society in the long run (oh, hey... about that), and thus, give a far better chance for the more fit leaders to actually produce a positive impact on the world around them.

 

[isekii]

Before everyone gets completely wrapped up in the bullying thing, eyewitness accounts that I heard on their local news channel indicate the victims were students who were considered to be the shooter's friends - people he sat with and hung out with. So bullying might not even be involved here.

Doesn't mean he couldn't have been f'd over in some sort of way.

 

[Jeff7]

If I had a beef with another classmate (which was rare), we'd normally talk it out. I only had one physical confrontation with another classmate which involved us getting into a pushing/punching match in gym class. The PE teacher broke it up, told us to shake hands, and made us together go put up all the gym equipment that had been taken out for class.

Today, we'd probably be suspended or they'd call the cops on us for getting into a scuffle in school.

In general, growing up in the 80s and 90s, I don't remember there being much of a problem with school shooting, major discipline problems, kids talking back to teachers, etc.

I wonder what has changed...

Ok. My dad had also suggested punching someone.
That presented certain problems of scale: As an 8th grader, a fair portion of the 5th graders were at least my size, or larger.

I had the distinct feeling that getting my ass kicked by a small group of people would do little to improve my social standing.

 

[waggy]

If I had a beef with another classmate (which was rare), we'd normally talk it out. I only had one physical confrontation with another classmate which involved us getting into a pushing/punching match in gym class. The PE teacher broke it up, told us to shake hands, and made us together go put up all the gym equipment that had been taken out for class.

Today, we'd probably be suspended or they'd call the cops on us for getting into a scuffle in school.

In general, growing up in the 80s and 90s, I don't remember there being much of a problem with school shooting, major discipline problems, kids talking back to teachers, etc.

I wonder what has changed...

talking does not always work. if its a argument yes. a bully no.

i was short and small. i wrestled at 119 my sr year.

Talking to bully's seemed to encourage them. the only real way to handle them was to stand up to them. sure i lost a lot of fights but i won many too. NOBODY wan'ts to lose to a kid you out weigh by 50 lbs and have 6 inches on. so 1 good fight with someone and the bullies leave you alone (most times).

trouble is if i was in school and defended myself i would get in just as much trouble. Also it was not uncommon for bullies to get away with it because they were popular, on teh football team or such.

So what is a kid to do? i feel bad for kids today.they can't win if they are up against a kid that does not give a shit what happens to him in school or life.

 

[ShawnD1]

They were in the process of learning not to be a dick when they were killed. They weren't fully developed adults.

touche :hmm:

So you think execution is a good deterrent for bullying?

I wouldn't say the punishment has a deterrent effect where 1 person being punished prevents 10 other people from doing future bullying. What I mean is that punishing 1 bully with bullets prevents that 1 bully from causing further trouble. Sort of like how we put rapists in jail just to make sure they don't rape more people.

Also he shouldn't have had access to a gun.

This is incorrect because not being able to go on a killing spree would probably result in the bullied victim killing himself instead of killing the bullies. Gay teens are bullied all the time, and that's the reason they have a very very high suicide rate. If more of them had guns, there would be a much higher killing spree rate but it would eliminate the people responsible for gay suicides, so that would be a victory :thumbsup:

 

[destrekor]

If I had a beef with another classmate (which was rare), we'd normally talk it out. I only had one physical confrontation with another classmate which involved us getting into a pushing/punching match in gym class. The PE teacher broke it up, told us to shake hands, and made us together go put up all the gym equipment that had been taken out for class.

Today, we'd probably be suspended or they'd call the cops on us for getting into a scuffle in school.

In general, growing up in the 80s and 90s, I don't remember there being much of a problem with school shooting, major discipline problems, kids talking back to teachers, etc.

I wonder what has changed...

Exactly. Everything has become so pussified in schools. I honestly wouldn't mind being a teacher, but I couldn't at all do such a thing today. I wouldn't last, because I refuse to participate in the downfall of youth instruction (on all fronts). And if you try and uphold the original methods of school (the ones that worked for most of our baby boomers and whatnot), you'll be fired for "emotional damage of students."

Emotions and decision-making skills (considering the prefrontal cortex hasn't matured until well after graduation of high school, even beyond undergrad) are completely out of whack, and kids will have issues that ultimately make no sense in the bigger picture. But schools can no longer handle it, parents now fear how to properly enforce things, and everything has become so hands off that these kids are NOT learning what actually needs to be learned.

 

[NFS4]

talking does not always work. if its a argument yes. a bully no.

i was short and small. i wrestled at 119 my sr year.

Talking to bully's seemed to encourage them. the only real way to handle them was to stand up to them. sure i lost a lot of fights but i won many too. NOBODY wan'ts to lose to a kid you out weigh by 50 lbs and have 6 inches on. so 1 good fight with someone and the bullies leave you alone (most times).

trouble is if i was in school and defended myself i would get in just as much trouble. Also it was not uncommon for bullies to get away with it because they were popular, on teh football team or such.

So what is a kid to do? i feel bad for kids today.they can't win if they are up against a kid that does not give a shit what happens to him in school or life.

But WHY has it gotten to this point? Is it because social media has given kids another outlet to bully? Is it that kids in general are "weaker" mentally? Are the schools to blame? Is it lax parenting?

I'm just trying to figure out what's happened in the past 10 or 15 years to turn kids into such degenerates.

 

[highland145]

But WHY has it gotten to this point? Is it because social media has given kids another outlet to bully? Is it that kids in general are "weaker" mentally? Are the schools to blame? Is it lax parenting?

I'm just trying to figure out what's happened in the past 10 or 15 years to turn kids into such degenerates.

The family unit is busted.
http://urbandojo.com/2010/06/16/bullying-reasons-why-do-people-bully-others-why-do-bullies-bully/

#5

“Bullies tend to come from families that are characterized as having little warmth or affection. These families also report trouble sharing their feelings and usually rate themselves as feeling less close to each other. Parent of bullies also tend to use inconsistent discipline and little monitoring of where their children are throughout the day. Sometimes parents of bullies have very punitive and rigid discipline styles, with physical punishment being very common. Bullies also report less feelings of closeness to their siblings.”

 

[vi edit]

But WHY has it gotten to this point? Is it because social media has given kids another outlet to bully? Is it that kids in general are "weaker" mentally? Are the schools to blame? Is it lax parenting?

I'm just trying to figure out what's happened in the past 10 or 15 years to turn kids into such degenerates.

I think the biggest difference is that 20 years ago most kids would just kill themselves and you'd quickly just forget about it (or never hear about it). Going out postal style wasn't really a glamourous option.

Now you have huge media attention, plus an online culture that can either further push or enable this type of behavior.

I really think that a lot of the "emo/fuck the world/FML" mentality is due to a lack of positive attention that parents give to children. Either parents are too busy at work and throw a kid in front of a TV or shove them into activies they hate instead of just spending time with them. Or on the other end it's an abusive family where the kid is just constantly physically or mentally knocked down.

These kids are desperate for attention. And when they finally break...what better way to get it than one final guns a blazing blast of chaos? With instant access to news, twitter feeds, facebook, ect...You can make a legacy of your name after being ignored for all of your life.

 

[waggy]

But WHY has it gotten to this point? Is it because social media has given kids another outlet to bully? Is it that kids in general are "weaker" mentally? Are the schools to blame? Is it lax parenting?

I'm just trying to figure out what's happened in the past 10 or 15 years to turn kids into such degenerates.

i really have no clue. It's not the bullshit they tried to tell people of bully's having lower self esteem. hell i could have told people that 20 years ago.

I don't think bullying is worse today then i twas 20 years ago. I just think now you can't excape it. when i was in school at 3:30 it ended. i went home and that was it. i would go to friends and play or whatever.

today? it continues ALL DAY. on facebook, texting, etc.

schools say they are doing something about it but i don't think they are.

my recent experiance with bully's and school is negitive. My kids go to a great (in education anyway) school. but there are 100 kids. there is 1 kid in the school that is terrorizing the other kids. He is the largest kid in school. 5ft 9 and 200+lbs and is only a 5th grader (held back twice i think). I posted about him last year. he held a 3rd grader under water until a teacher yanked him off. he got a 1 day suspension.

This year the kid has already been suspended 5 times (that was by Christmas break). Yet the Superintendent protects the boy. he refuses to do anything more then a 1 day suspension and if people complain the paperwork on it gets "lost". its so bad he got fired and won't be back next year.

he comes from a big family but the parents are NEVER home. For the last 3-4 years he has been the one takeing care of his 2 younger siblings because nobody else is home.

its sad. because the kid is a good kid..when he wants to be.

 

[allisolm]

Doesn't mean he couldn't have been f'd over in some sort of way.

Very true. One student said there was a rumor going around that one of the vicitms had sold the shooter fake drugs and he was angry. It will probably turn out to be something completely unrelated to any of this.

At least the shooter is in custody and hopefully will explain.

 

[destrekor]

The family unit is busted.
http://urbandojo.com/2010/06/16/bullying-reasons-why-do-people-bully-others-why-do-bullies-bully/

#5

But that has essentially always been an issue - not everyone is fit to be a good parent.

Half the blame still lies with the parents, and schools are also at fault. Punishment styles have changed, out of fear of how parents will react or for some other reason. Everything has become much "softer" for our youth. There is far less yelling at schools, far less personalized punishment, and more of an approach that sees "you screwed up. we're not doing anything other than taking you out of school for a day or two and letting your parents take care of this." and we all know how effective that tends to be.

 

[Drako]

Sounds like it might be a jealous ex-boyfriend type of deal.

"Nate said his group was friends with T.J. through middle school, but in high school, T.J. went a separate way.
Russell, he said, had recently started dating T.J.'s ex-girlfriend, who is home-schooled."

From the Plain Dealer

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/chardon_student_identifies_sho.html

 

[HAL9000]

touche :hmm:


I wouldn't say the punishment has a deterrent effect where 1 person being punished prevents 10 other people from doing future bullying. What I mean is that punishing 1 bully with bullets prevents that 1 bully from causing further trouble. Sort of like how we put rapists in jail just to make sure they don't rape more people.



This is incorrect because not being able to go on a killing spree would probably result in the bullied victim killing himself instead of killing the bullies. Gay teens are bullied all the time, and that's the reason they have a very very high suicide rate. If more of them had guns, there would be a much higher killing spree rate but it would eliminate the people responsible for gay suicides, so that would be a victory :thumbsup:

As allisolm said, he killed his friends.

He shouldn't have had a gun.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Kids are mean, it's a fact of life, teens will bully and be bullied, it's just a fact of life. Doesn't mean this kind of stuff should ever be contemplated, I hated secondary school. I'd never have done this.

Also he shouldn't have had access to a gun.

Some kids are crazy and will kill kids that are mean it's a sad fact of life.

 

[HAL9000]

Some kids are crazy and will kill kids that are mean it's a sad fact of life.

Very true, which is why I also added he shouldn't have had access to guns.

It's a terrible fact of life that things like this happen, but it seems IMO to happen far too much in America. The last school shooting in the UK was 1996 AFAIK. There seems to be one every few months in America.

 

[Gothgar]

sad

 

[JulesMaximus]

Jesus... this kind of thing scares the hell out of me as a parent. Horrible situation for all involved. :'(

I'm teaching my son to shoot and to respect firearms and the rules of handling them safely but he absolutely will NOT have access to any of them without my supervision until he is old enough to legally own his own guns if he even wants to own them. That I'll leave up to him when the time comes.

 

[busydude]

What is the minimum age requirement to legally own a gun?

 

[vi edit]

It's a terrible fact of life that things like this happen, but it seems IMO to happen far too much in America. The last school shooting in the UK was 1996 AFAIK. There seems to be one every few months in America.

I think there is something to be said about small bouts of "theraputic" violence rather than singular explosive killing sprees.

You could probably trend a graph in the rise of school shootings going one way with the "Zero tolerence" in fighting overlaying that. Kids can't fight back. They are now double victimized. Once getting bullied, and second by the school system/and or parents by not being allowed to defend themselves. So they just have to deal with being a physical/emotional punching bag until they blow up.

Part of being a guy is being able to knock a guy out when you are pissed at them, get your disagreements out of the way and then co-oexist with each other. Get that aggression out of your system in small doses instead of letting it build up.

Sports are similarly therapuetic. Most of the kids that go on these shooting sprees aren't exactly the athletic type. Maybe they needed to find better ways to vent that anger.

 

[HAL9000]

I think there is something to be said about small bouts of "theraputic" violence rather than singular explosive killing sprees.

You could probably trend a graph in the rise of school shootings going one way with the "Zero tolerence" in fighting overlaying that. Kids can't fight back. They are now double victimized. Once getting bullied, and second by the school system/and or parents by not being allowed to defend themselves. So they just have to deal with being a physical/emotional punching bag until they blow up.

Why can kids not fight back anymore? I missed that step in your argument?

Part of being a guy is being able to knock a guy out when you are pissed at them, get your disagreements out of the way and then co-oexist with each other. Get that aggression out of your system in small doses instead of letting it build up.

Sure, that's how I got through it.

Sports are similarly therapuetic. Most of the kids that go on these shooting sprees aren't exactly the athletic type. Maybe they needed to find better ways to vent that anger.

True enough.

 

[JulesMaximus]

What is the minimum age requirement to legally own a gun?

In CA you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun, 18 for rifles and shotguns.

 

[highland145]

What is the minimum age requirement to legally own a gun?

States are different. S.C., 18.

According to the National Rifle Association, Wyoming has no handgun age requirement. In Montana, it's set at 14; in Vermont, 16.

 

[JTsyo]

touche :hmm:
...

This is incorrect because not being able to go on a killing spree would probably result in the bullied victim killing himself instead of killing the bullies. Gay teens are bullied all the time, and that's the reason they have a very very high suicide rate. If more of them had guns, there would be a much higher killing spree rate but it would eliminate the people responsible for gay suicides, so that would be a victory :thumbsup:

So you would rather have people that bully others die and let those that would kill others live? That seems like a less than optimal outcome.