Unschoolers learn what they want, when they want

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,453
10
81
what say you, atot? valid educational method or bunk?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/03/unschooling.sudbury.education/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

Six-year-old Karina Ricci doesn't ever have a typical day. She has no schedule to follow, no lessons to complete.

She spends her time watching TV, doing arts and crafts or practicing the piano. She learned to spell by e-mailing with friends; she uses math concepts while cooking dinner.

Everything she knows has been absorbed "organically," according to her dad, Dr. Carlo Ricci. She's not just on summer break -- this is her life year round as an at-home unschooler.

"It's incredible how capable she is," Ricci said in a phone interview from his home in Toronto, Ontario. "And I think that all young people are that capable ... if you don't tell them they can't or they're not allowed, they surprise us in a lot of ways."

Ricci is professor of alternative learning at Nipissing University and an advocate of unschooling, a concept that's gaining popularity in both Canada and the United States thanks to frustration with the current public education system. In unschooling the child is in control of his/her learning. They are free to decide what they want to study, when they want to study it.

Experts say there are about 2 million home-educated students in the U.S., and Ricci estimates 10% adhere to unschooling ideals. In addition, there are more than 20 Sudbury schools -- private institutions that follow the same philosophy -- in North America. A new one is set to open in Toronto next fall.

The unschooling philosophy is based on education pioneer John Holt's 1964 book "How Children Fail." Put simply, Holt wrote that living is learning. He believed children should follow their innate curiosity and passions rather than being forced to learn hordes of information they will never use.

"I think our education system as a whole is, to me, in a very delicate and precarious place," Sudbury Valley staff member Mimsy Sadofsky said. "It keeps trying to do what it can't do, which is make every child learn everything in the whole wide world. It's like heading toward a cliff."

Sadofsky remembers the terror she and her husband felt after deciding to enroll their children in the Sudbury Valley School in Framingham, Massachusetts. It was 1968 and her son was unhappy with the rules in his first grade class. But could they entrust a 6-year-old with his education?

"Our education system as a whole is, to me, in a very delicate and precarious place.

--Mimsy Sadofsky
"What an enormous risk we were taking with our children's lives," Sadofsky said, thinking back. "You're told to take care of your children and that schools will give them a good education. Suddenly, you're turning it around."

But Sadofsky's kids flourished and are an example of unschooling's success: one is a mathematician, one is a software coordinator-turned-jam entrepreneur and the third is a geologist.

"They have, and I think this is true of [Sudbury] alumni in general, an incredible sense of who they are and how they work, and confidence in their abilities," Sadofsky said. "Not that they know everything, but they know how to find what they need."

Sudbury schools are democratically run, meaning every student and employee has one vote, whatever their age. The only rules are set by the student body and can be changed by a majority. The overlying theme -- respect for yourself, others and the property -- is taken more seriously, students say, because you're judged by your peers instead of an authority figure.

Classes are offered but not mandatory -- "certifications" are required to use equipment such as sharp cooking utensils. There are no grades. Staff members often do not have a teaching background; they are there simply to guide students in their individual pursuits.

It's this lack of structure that has child psychiatrist and Harvard Medical professor Steven Schlozman concerned.

"Teaching is really hard. It's really hard. I don't think that just anybody can sit down and help a child achieve their educational goals and needs.

A student draws in the art room at Sudbury Valley School."There's something wonderful about the idea of just letting kids be kids... focusing just on what they like, can do or are passionate about," Schlozman continued. "The only thing is, they also live in the world and the world is going to need things from them."

Schlozman said students need trained adults to help them make that leap from what's wired in our lower brain functions (walking, talking, eating) to higher brain functions (understanding why "To Kill A Mockingbird" is a good book) because pre-adolescent brains lack the capacity for abstraction.

"I would say we could stand, and would probably do better, with less structure in education... the flip side of that though is that there has to be a middle ground," Schlozman said. "Otherwise you end up with a potential chaos taking the place of maximum learning."

Calls to the National Education Association for comment on unschooling were not returned.

Ben Locke, 21, says there's no reason to worry. Locke entered Sudbury Valley as a teen, feeling isolated and unhappy in his public high school.

"It was a radical idea... I'm certain at the time when I made the transition none of us knew exactly what I was getting into."

Locke spent most of his first year at Sudbury Valley playing video games. Then he discovered the music room across the hall. Eventually he became comfortable enough to spend hours chatting with other students in the common room.

"The conversation in SVS is radically different than in public schools," Locke said. "There's no age segregation, no time limit. We would have a wide variety of topics, some of them totally lewd and some of them more deep and philosophical."

"It's more about taking charge of your time rather than choosing to do nothing.

--Molly Morningstar
Unschooling advocate and former SVS student Freya Sargent said that even seemingly aimless activities like this have a purpose -- they lead kids to discover new interests.

"A lot of parents express concern that 'my kid is going to end up doing nothing,'" Sargent said. "And that may be true for a certain amount of time, but we as a species are very curious and we have this innate need to learn... People may sit around for a while, but then they get bored and they want to be involved."

Locke is now studying neuroscience at Harvard University -- a passion he developed after wondering how music translates across cultures (remember the Mario Bros. theme song?).

Approximately 90% of Sudbury Valley's graduates go on to college (compared with 69% of graduates from the public education system). Those opposed to unschooling often say students will have trouble adapting to the real world when confronted with grades, tests or working 9 to 5 under an authority figure.

Molly Morningstar isn't worried. The 19-year-old pre-med student at Hapmshire College in Massachusetts said the freedom she found at SVS didn't teach her to avoid work -- it taught her to work hard at whatever she enjoyed.

"Freedom is a funny word," she said. "[The] structure of being a doctor is freedom in a sense because it's what you chose to do with your life. I feel like I'm a very free person right now -- but I still work as a barista at a café 30 hours a week. It's more about taking charge of your time rather than choosing to do nothing."
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
It is perfectly valid. It worked throughout history for millions of people. I see a lot of people graduate that can solve a math problem, but those same people can't live on their own when they get a job because they lack living skills or independence often looking for someone to teach them how to be self dependent. I think public education misses the mark because they focus so much on grades and subjects that the child doesn't have time to develop interest in things naturally.

Here we have a local family that has children that have never attended school. They run a local farm and the parents said they need those kids home during the day to keep the farm running. The mother taught them all to read, the dad taught them math, and all those things come into use during the daily work on the farm so the kids actually apply what they learn. Their son just got a paid scholarship and is going to college to study agriculture.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,550
940
126
It's incredible how capable she is.

Parents always say stupid shit like that about their kids. Reality on the other hand is another story.

I attended a school with no set cirriculum when I was in 5th grade and didn't learn a fucking thing, except that I hated it there. Next year it was back to public schools.
 
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mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
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That might work if your children aspire to nothing more technical or scientific, but I can assure you that at the age of 18, these children will not be prepared to enter into any technical field, engineering, medicine, science. The simple math and preschool level science will give many people the ability to function in mundain mindless jobs but that is it.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
hmm this would really depend on the kid. i know a few this would be great for..but more that would be failures in life.

Parents always say stupid shit like that about their kids. Reality on the other hand is another story.

I attended a school with no set cirriculum when I was in 5th grade and didn't learn a fucking thing, except that I hated it there. Next year it was back to public schools.

same. i went to a school kinda like the one mentioned in the story. we chose what we wanted to learn (for me it was science and math) while i did end up farther ahead in both i was far behind in other areas of education when i went to a different school.

the idea is great. reality though is not going to be good for the majority of the kids.
 
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BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,322
1,836
126
Ehhh ... school for me was very slow and mostly a waste of time....
I would have been a lot better with "unschooling" ....
 

D1gger

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,411
2
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I feel dumber for having read that story.

There is no way that the majority of kids would gain enough knowledge or skill to be employable in any other profession than burger flipping if they did not participate in some level of organized education.

Home schooling can be a valid method of educating, but in my opinion "unschooling" (which isn't even a word) is setting your child up to fail.
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
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Our current education system just doesn't work for some people, myself included. Had unschooling been an option I would definitely be in a better place, because I hate school. I do not like classroom environments. If it works for you, great, but it doesn't for me so give me a damn alternative. Online schools try to be different but aren't. An online classroom is still a damn classroom.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
She is capable of emailing and finger painting. Impressive!

When she applies for a job that requires anything resembling basic education she will thank daddy for allowing her to not learn anyting useful except common sense things as she grew up.
 

Vic Vega

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2010
4,535
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0
I feel dumber for having read that story.

There is no way that the majority of kids would gain enough knowledge or skill to be employable in any other profession than burger flipping if they did not participate in some level of organized education.

Home schooling can be a valid method of educating, but in my opinion "unschooling" (which isn't even a word) is setting your child up to fail.

This.
 

LordMorpheus

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2002
6,871
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I think something like this could work if one or both of the parents was brilliant and very involved in their kid's life. This describes exactly 0.00000001% of Americans, so I think we should hold off on the full-scale rollout of the program.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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It is perfectly valid. It worked throughout history for millions of people. I see a lot of people graduate that can solve a math problem, but those same people can't live on their own when they get a job because they lack living skills or independence often looking for someone to teach them how to be self dependent. I think public education misses the mark because they focus so much on grades and subjects that the child doesn't have time to develop interest in things naturally.

Well homeschooling is different than this 'unschooling'. For a main stream educational model I have very very serious doubts. Most kids need some structure to their education (but it is a fine line between structure and stiffling). I think for well motivated children with attentive parents this could work. Unfortunately we do not have an over abundance of well motivated children with attentive parents. And God help the poor child that has to transfer from an 'unschool' into a traditional school. This is not to say that the current state of our educational system is good, by any means.

I also don't think 'living skills' is something that should be taught by schools - except maybe finance since most people seem to royally fuck theirs up if left to their own devices
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,471
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When I speak to people regarding this, it always comes down to one conclusion: Every child is different. Learning differs, there is no "silver bullet" that will educate every child to an "acceptable" level. If your child excels in a certain environment, then by all means...let that child thrive.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,583
80
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www.bing.com
this pretty much describes the Montessori School system which some of my friends went to up until 8th grade (and some of them are quite accomplished)

It's also been pointed out that Google founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin are both "Montessori kids"

It's always been described to me as "the kids learn what they want when they want"
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
The problem is the first 12 years are more about how to interact and handle failure/success. Kids have already been left to do what they feel is right for the past 10 years or so now and that affect is not looking so good.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I think something like this could work if one or both of the parents was brilliant and very involved in their kid's life. This describes exactly 0.00000001% of Americans, so I think we should hold off on the full-scale rollout of the program.

QFT, plus the child needs to be up there IQ-wise. What this will turn into is lazy parents preferring the hands-off approach allowing their child to set themselves and the society the grow up in for absolute failure. Meanwhile, they will constantly be bragging/tweeting/facebooking how 'genious' their retard is.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
14
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this pretty much describes the Montessori School system which some of my friends went to up until 8th grade (and some of them are quite accomplished)

It's also been pointed out that Google founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin are both "Montessori kids"

It's always been described to me as "the kids learn what they want when they want"

My brother and sister in law are fully vested in this concept with their kids, and it's really quite annoying to watch. The elder child goes to a Montessori kindergarten. You cannot even talk to the child or the parents will practically jump down your throat that you're "smothering" them. We wanted to take a family picture at a Memorial Day picnic. Everyone says, "Cmon Owen, lets all get in the picture!" you know, like normal people would do. My sister-in-law had issues with this, "He's fine, if he wants to get in the picture he will, just leave him alone." :rolleyes: Kids need structure. They don't know anything. I am completely against helicopter parenting, but going the polar opposite is every bit as bad.

The rest of you are totally right about it depending on the type of person that the child is, and this method would only work for 0.01% of the population. I am thinking specifically of one coworker's kids who are the complete opposite of this, they're left to their own devices and it is complete chaos when they're in public. It's pathetic.
 

Numenorean

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2008
4,442
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Well I've learned a lot more outside of school than in it.

But the fundamentals were school-taught. But could have been taught in another way as well I'm sure.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
From TFA:

Everything she knows has been absorbed "organically," according to her dad, Dr. Carlo Ricci. She's not just on summer break -- this is her life year round as an at-home unschooler.

Her dad is a fucking hippy dippy idiot if he continues to keep her out of the school system. Organically is a buzzword that too many people pay too much attention to... Will she learn proper spelling, grammar, conjugation, math?

Admittedly, she's only six at this point; it's not like we need to start assigning kids arithmetic homework when they're four.
 

TecHNooB

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
7,458
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"A lot of parents express concern that 'my kid is going to end up doing nothing,'" Sargent said. "And that may be true for a certain amount of time, but we as a species are very curious and we have this innate need to learn... People may sit around for a while, but then they get bored and they want to be involved."

Lies!
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
this pretty much describes the Montessori School system which some of my friends went to up until 8th grade (and some of them are quite accomplished)

It's also been pointed out that Google founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin are both "Montessori kids"

lol, motessori reminds me of the protagonist from edgar allen poe's "cask of amontillado".
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Dumb idea. I bet that exceptionally intelligent and motivated kids can do better in this kind of an environment, but with most kids you're setting them up for failure. At a certain point there's no substitute for sitting down, gritting your teeth and doing work that's boring and tedious.
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
11,288
7
0
This would work well for children with attentive/educated parents.

I don't see this ending well for children who grow up in the trailer park/ghetto. Then again, little Jameel could learn all about math/business/economics/law by helping his dad sell crack on the street corner.

The only chance alot of kids have to escape the ghetto is through school.
 
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Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
Dumb idea. I bet that exceptionally intelligent and motivated kids can do better in this kind of an environment, but with most kids you're setting them up for failure. At a certain point there's no substitute for sitting down, gritting your teeth and doing work that's boring and tedious.

Most parents think their kids are exceptional, when in reality most are within a standard deviation of average.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
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I also don't think 'living skills' is something that should be taught by schools - except maybe finance since most people seem to royally fuck theirs up if left to their own devices

I'd personally like to see finance and fitness taught by schools.

In regard to finance, the biggest one I think schools should try and teach is probably credit. Today, we have such a strong sense of instant gratification that we typically don't even look out to see what consequences could or will be. You can apply that same problem to more than just debt. But anyway, show junior just how much he'll be paying for that new XBOX if he charges it to a card with x% interest and only pays the minimum payment. Maybe it won't sink in for everyone, but I think enough will open their eyes and realize how much more they end up paying for things.

In regard to fitness, I'm not looking at the gym courses. I talked about this in a different thread, but I would have loved to learn more of the biological aspects of how certain parts of foods (sugars, starches, fats, etc) are handled by our bodies. Again, use specific examples involving actual students such as asking them how much (non-diet) soda they drink and provide actual values compared to recommended intake. People need things in their own perspective sometimes... it's much more helpful.

QFT, plus the child needs to be up there IQ-wise. What this will turn into is lazy parents preferring the hands-off approach allowing their child to set themselves and the society the grow up in for absolute failure. Meanwhile, they will constantly be bragging/tweeting/facebooking how 'genious' their retard is.

It's possible that parents could become lazy and detached from their child's growth, but it seems like the idea with this method is that the parents are supposed to support the child's interest in things. In a way, this seems more like the "good ole days" where you focus more on a specific path.

For example, I'm a software engineer, so if I took this approach, I might specifically forsake some of the obscure history that I learned throughout my educational career. I'd probably stick to math, programming and an applied science like physics. Of course, being able to speak and write properly is always a good trait, and it shouldn't be ignored.

Her dad is a fucking hippy dippy idiot if he continues to keep her out of the school system. Organically is a buzzword that too many people pay too much attention to... Will she learn proper spelling, grammar, conjugation, math?

I think the assumption is that things like this will be learned throughout life. For example, how many times have you seen someone use a word on this forum that you didn't have a good definition for? That certainly doesn't mean that you're dumb. Have you ever had trouble spelling a word before? That certainly doesn't mean that you're dumb.

Hell, I'll admit that I'm awful at giving definition for words, and I've certainly been caught using the wrong word a few times on the forums. Although, I think that's more or less mixing up definitions and things that sound alike.