Universal Healthcare in the USA

[boomerang]

I can't figure out how to find cancer survival rates by country but the two most oft quoted numbers are infant mortality and life expectancy. The US ranks low - 34 in both. Behind countries that we consider 3rd world. I currently live in South America and would you believe it that Colombia, Chile, and Argentina all have healthcare systems ranked higher than the USA? I mean what the fuck is up with that?!

What the fuck is up with that is that you should dig a little deeper on those stats. They are the commonly trotted out stats that fit an agenda but they are not even remotely true. You seem to enjoy research so I am hopeful that you will search out the truth on your own.

And while I'm on the subject of bullshit and lies, although we have always had and more than likely always will have a portion of our population that accepts what our corrupt government tells them without question, we just had an election here where the message was one of 'enough'. Our government yet again decided that deception is the best methodology to achieve a goal. The goal in this case was to make Obamacare the 'law of the land'. It necessitated crafting legislation such that the CBO could not report its true costs, that did not clearly indicate that the basis of the legislation was redistribution of wealth and relied on "stupid American voters" to pass it. Type 'Jonathan Gruber' into your favorite search engine and find out what the mainstream media has decided you don't need to know.

I could go on and on with this but I will get to the point. If you want universal health care in this country there are two paths to it. It can be instituted through a period of damage control where the government must convince the people of the nation that government can be trusted to look out for their best interests and when that trust is restored, they can then make a case for universal health care. I estimate that could take twenty years under the best of circumstances or one hundred years under the worst. The second option is to institute it through force. Which BTW is a hugely appealing option for the Democrat party but the 'light' version of that has already failed. We'll know for sure in June with the SCOTUS ruling.

Oh and on a related note, the ignorant American voters, well they're all the Democrats in Congress. Remember that Obamacare got passed with not a single Republican vote? Yeah. The very same people that got their asses handed to them a week ago voted for it in a show of solidarity. Smart move.

Universal health care has been pushed back for many decades and the blame lies totally on the party of lies and deceit which Michael Moore would tell you is the Republican party. But if you thought Sicko was truth, well...

My advice to anyone that really desires universal health care very badly at this point is to consider moving to a country that offers it. The process can take some time so no better time to start than now. We're not going to have it here anytime soon. The Democrats saw to that.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I hope you have thanked the folks paying your insurance. My family coverage from a fortune 200 corp:
500 month.
I pay 15 percent of negotiated cost after 6k deduct. I can and do put 6k into health savings.

I work for a self insured fortune 500 corp.

 

[Spungo]

Government and democracy fail in this country because the country is filled with retards. I'll give an example. Sex education. Countries like Norway and Sweden teach science because that's what people want. Someone wanting to teach bullshit would be run out of town. In America, the exact opposite is true. Someone wanting to teach birth control will be fired and someone claiming HIV is god's way of dealing with gay people will be promoted.

This is the reason UHC will never work in America. Putting the government in charge of medical care means putting stupid people in charge of medical care. They'll write stupid laws saying blood transfusions are illegal because they prevent people from going to heaven. They'll make birth control illegal because aliens 666 lucifer bengazi. Republicans actually have tried banning most forms of birth control; the thought of giving them more power scares me to death. The government has given us crap like No Child Left Behind, Common Core math, extremely shitty postal service, police that do no-knock home invasions and throw flash grenades in baby cribs. The government locks up a shocking percentage of black men due to the war on drugs. The government puts marijuana as a schedule 1 drug, meaning it has no medical use, but America is the biggest user of prescription pain killers in the world. The government clearly doesn't give a shit about the wellbeing of American citizens. Do we really want to give them more power?

We'll be ready for UHC when the country has fewer retards. I'm not holding my breath.
Bush and stem cells

 

[unokitty]

What's stopping us from getting it? How do we get the insurance companies out of the equation? In the movie they said that if they tried to take the national healthcare system away from the British there would be a revolution. It's that important to them. Why is it not important enough for us to stand up and demand it NOW?

US Healthcare system has tiers. Politicians and the 1% don't have a problem with the status quo...

And as Machiavelli observed several hundred years ago, the status quo has plenty of friends. The future has no friends.

Change is hard. People profiting from the current system don't want to give up their money. Under the current system, politicians that make the laws get excellent healthcare, paid for by the taxpayers. Why would they want to change?

Obamacare didn't address health care costs. All Obamacare did is shift costs from the older and the sicker to the younger and the healthy. Its a zero sum game.

Uno

 

[theeedude]

Everyone will shit a brick when they see the tax bill for universal care.

We already spend same amount of tax money per capita on health care as countries with universal systems. Except we don't get universal coverage and have to spend even more out of pocket and by businesses. Because murica.

 

[FerrelGeek]

And, based on discussions I've had with friends that live in Canada and the UK, we get helped a lot faster here in the US. A friend of mine in the UK had to wait over a year to get knee surgery due to the lag time between referrals and tests. She also had to get carpal tunnel surgery and they didn't start PT for her until they had enough evidence that she wasn't recovering quickly enough. She told me that this was not at all uncommon there.

Friend in Canada had blood in her urine. Docs put the fear of God in her had told her it could be cancer. Then she had to wait over 2 months for tests. Found out it was just due to a hernia, but she had to wait almost another 2 months for the surgery.

A doctor visit for me is about $20 after I get past the $300 deductible ($700 max for family). A MRI or Catscan costs me less than $100. If I need to get an operation which includes knee or hip replacement it's occurs as soon as the doctor/hospital has an opening, normally 2 to 3 weeks. My max out of pocket is $2,000 individual/$4,000 family. Emergency coverage is at in-network prices though I haven't found a facility that doesn't accept the insurance that the company I work for uses to administer their plans.

I pay $325/month for a family plan that includes dental and vision. My prescription cost $10 for a 30 day supply and $20 for a 90 day supply, generic of course and sometimes it's less depending on the drug. Company pays 80% on name brand drugs.

Based on what my colleagues pay for universal healthcare at the European locations it's not that much different.

 

[Timorous]

That isn't bad. Works out to around 8.4% of salary if you look at average income and monthly bill. Do companies in the UK kick in any money or it just supported by individuals?

Companies pay a contribution too but it varies based on the income and status of the employee. On the national average salary with an employee with no special status (widowed, disabled etc etc) they pay around £152.00 / month so it is a pretty even split between employee and employer.

Once you earn more than £41,860 a year the rate drops to 2% on any income above that level so if you were to earn £100,000 a year your national insurance contribution would be £435.94 a month which is ~ 5.2% of your salary. In this example the employer would be contributing £921.49 a month as they do not get to decrease their contribution once it goes above the £41,860 a year threshold.

EDIT: The thing is though National Insurance is more than just healthcare so to say that is what our healthcare costs is not quite accurate as it covers other services too.

EDIT2: I misread the contribution as being employer only when it was for employee and employer combined. I have changed it to reflect the correct figures.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Here is what I know. A guy I used to work with cut his hand real bad while in England. He called the front desk of the hotel to let them know he bled on the carpet a bit (I think he was using a knife to open a package). Someone came to use some cleaner and that guy insisted he go to the hospital. The guy I worked was afraid of the costs but gave in. The entire visit with stitches was around $50 there was some kind of filing fee included in that figure. He said it didn't take all that long to have done, a DR. Checked him out an intern did the stitching. There is no way a visit like that would be $50 in the US even with decent insurance.

 

[Zodiark1593]

What the fuck is up with that is that you should dig a little deeper on those stats. They are the commonly trotted out stats that fit an agenda but they are not even remotely true. You seem to enjoy research so I am hopeful that you will search out the truth on your own.

And while I'm on the subject of bullshit and lies, although we have always had and more than likely always will have a portion of our population that accepts what our corrupt government tells them without question, we just had an election here where the message was one of 'enough'. Our government yet again decided that deception is the best methodology to achieve a goal. The goal in this case was to make Obamacare the 'law of the land'. It necessitated crafting legislation such that the CBO could not report its true costs, that did not clearly indicate that the basis of the legislation was redistribution of wealth and relied on "stupid American voters" to pass it. Type 'Jonathan Gruber' into your favorite search engine and find out what the mainstream media has decided you don't need to know.

I could go on and on with this but I will get to the point. If you want universal health care in this country there are two paths to it. It can be instituted through a period of damage control where the government must convince the people of the nation that government can be trusted to look out for their best interests and when that trust is restored, they can then make a case for universal health care. I estimate that could take twenty years under the best of circumstances or one hundred years under the worst. The second option is to institute it through force. Which BTW is a hugely appealing option for the Democrat party but the 'light' version of that has already failed. We'll know for sure in June with the SCOTUS ruling.

Oh and on a related note, the ignorant American voters, well they're all the Democrats in Congress. Remember that Obamacare got passed with not a single Republican vote? Yeah. The very same people that got their asses handed to them a week ago voted for it in a show of solidarity. Smart move.

Universal health care has been pushed back for many decades and the blame lies totally on the party of lies and deceit which Michael Moore would tell you is the Republican party. But if you thought Sicko was truth, well...

My advice to anyone that really desires universal health care very badly at this point is to consider moving to a country that offers it. The process can take some time so no better time to start than now. We're not going to have it here anytime soon. The Democrats saw to that.

Well goddamn, my thoughts exactly.

Tl,Dr. Universal Healthcare will take a very long time to properly implement, and will be painful and messy (due partly to the fact you need to raze the entire health insurance industry before the wheels can even begin to move), and that is assumming politicians are halfway competent. Most likely, none of us reading this will be alive by the time it's finished.

 

[Spungo]

Obamacare didn't address health care costs. All Obamacare did is shift costs from the older and the sicker to the younger and the healthy. Its a zero sum game.

Because the system is so completely broken that it's impossible to fix.

1). Do not limit the number of doctors. If everyone having a sociology degree drives wages through the floor so much that minimum wage jobs want university grads, why don't we do the same thing with medical degrees? Triple the number of doctors and let the free market handle the prices. When there are too many doctors, the only way to attract customers is with lower prices.
This will never happen because the doctors union is extremely powerful.

2). Lawsuit reform. Seriously, lawsuits are out of control in this country. Is there any other country in the world where people will intentionally fall then try to sue someone?
This is impossible to fix because the lawyers union is extremely powerful. Also, most politicians are lawyers. The inmates are running the asylum.

3). Expand the role of nurses. 99% of the things doctors do can be handle by a nurse.

4). Drugs should not require prescriptions. How much time and money is wasted on seeing doctors to fill prescriptions? Buying ADD medication should be just as easy as buying cough medication. Can you imagine how expensive cough syrup would be if it needed a prescription? Instead of $10, it might cost $100 or $200. On top of that, you would need to pay another $100 just to get a doctor to say you're allowed to have it. This is such a stupid system.


None of these will ever be fixed. You will never see OTC syringes that are prefilled with hydromorphone. You will never see legal marijuana. You will never see lower medical prices for anything.

 

[sportage]

Everyone will shit a brick when they see the tax bill for universal care.

Tax bill, insurance company bill, I doubt there would be much of a difference.
Actually, the tax bill would most likely be less because as with social security the maintenance fees would be a lot less than private insurance company fees and hospitals fees. What the government charges to manage social security is extremely low and cost effective.

Just wait till social security is privatized into a 401K plan and turned over to the banks and financial institutions. Talk about fees. God have mercy....
Banks and financial institutions that would manage the privatized SS i.e. 401K would not only charge enormous fees, but as with college loans, the financial institutions would demand huge profits by made off everyones 401K retirement plan.
In other words, your retirement would be royally screwed.
Currently, with our government SS system, the maintenance fees are extremely low.
Around 1%.
Turn that management over to the private financial institutions and watch the greed begin.
Why do you think the financial sector and the republicans want SS privatized so badly?
All that money to be made off your retirement fund.

Everyone now under the age of 50 will not know social security as we know it today.
They will have privatized social security in the form of a 401K plan solely managed by the banks and financial institutions. Subject to the whims of the stock market and the banks greed for profits.
There will be no security in privatized social security.

Dems are for universal health care, republicans are not, end of story.

Actually neither side has any desire for universal healthcare.
Why?
The lobbyist work both sides of the isle and control the issue.
Remember Bill Clinton back in 1992 and his push for universal healthcare?
It was the democrats that marched down to the whitehouse to inform the Clinton's that their universal healthcare plan was dead in the water.

We would need a massive uprising by the American people for universal healthcare.
But the forces in power would never let that happen.
Masses amounts of money would fuel TV ads to convince Americans that universal healthcare would be as bad as full nuclear war.
And America would believe it hook line and stinker. They always do.
Voting in our own best interest is not exactly a national treasure. Never has been.

 

[zanejohnson]

you know what?

this is the first time i've EVER seen both sides of the debate, D's and R's... agree on anything.

that's progress.

what are we agreeing on exactly? that our system of healthcare SUCKS ASS, and WE'RE GETTING SHAFTED HARD.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

more food for thought in graph form:

 

[zanejohnson]

that's it, i'm voting third party in 2016.

or i'm open for ideas, what should we do?

sportage and spongy, you're both really intelligent people, what should we do?

 

[bshole]

Because the system is so completely broken that it's impossible to fix.

1). Do not limit the number of doctors. If everyone having a sociology degree drives wages through the floor so much that minimum wage jobs want university grads, why don't we do the same thing with medical degrees? Triple the number of doctors and let the free market handle the prices. When there are too many doctors, the only way to attract customers is with lower prices.
This will never happen because the doctors union is extremely powerful.

Excellent, excellent, excellent point. An artificial limit on doctors, how the fuck did they get away with that?

 

[zanejohnson]

Excellent, excellent, excellent point. An artificial limit on doctors, how the fuck did they get away with that?

God Jesus H, i didnt know that either...

explains why in every small medium town there are about 5 doctors, and they all live in MANSIONS. not mcmansions...i swear there is doctor in my town with a house with the footprint of a football field.

 

[soulcougher73]

Cause Americans are stupid in mass and are indoctrinated from birth to fear "evil socialism" all the while surrounded by socialistic laws etc that they love but dont even put 2 and 2 together to realize its a socialistic idea. That is how dumb your average American is. It's sad.

 

[soulcougher73]

Everyone will shit a brick when they see the tax bill for universal care.

I wouldnt. It would be less than most people insurance premiums and i have the added "jesus-like" quality of knowing its caring for everyone

 

[glenn1]

Well goddamn, my thoughts exactly.

Tl,Dr. Universal Healthcare will take a very long time to properly implement, and will be painful and messy (due partly to the fact you need to raze the entire health insurance industry before the wheels can even begin to move), and that is assumming politicians are halfway competent. Most likely, none of us reading this will be alive by the time it's finished.

This. Democrats have already proven their incompetence and tone deafness about the subject by focusing on the "universal" part which progressives have still not figured out is not a selling point but instead a point of objection for most voters. The majority of folks have employer-subsidized health insurance and whose top 1, 2, 3, etc. concerns are about fixing the problems with their own coverage. Expanding coverage to others is like #999,999,9999 on their priority list and will be abandoned instantly if anything done to address coverage expansion endangers their own coverage or makes it more expensive by anything more than a token amount.

Only an idiot or progressive (redundant I know) would approach this subject by selling it to middle class voters as "sure your tax rates may go up with universal healthcare and I can't guarantee the same benefits you had under private insurance, but my plan will help some unemployed high-school dropout inner city gang kid have the health insurance he's lacked previously!"

 

[fskimospy]

Because the system is so completely broken that it's impossible to fix.

1). Do not limit the number of doctors. If everyone having a sociology degree drives wages through the floor so much that minimum wage jobs want university grads, why don't we do the same thing with medical degrees? Triple the number of doctors and let the free market handle the prices. When there are too many doctors, the only way to attract customers is with lower prices.
This will never happen because the doctors union is extremely powerful.

I agree!

2). Lawsuit reform. Seriously, lawsuits are out of control in this country. Is there any other country in the world where people will intentionally fall then try to sue someone?
This is impossible to fix because the lawyers union is extremely powerful. Also, most politicians are lawyers. The inmates are running the asylum.

Total costs associated with lawsuits are somewhere around 2% of costs. They are not the cause of our problems. Furthermore, states that have instituted "tort reform" have not experienced noticeably lower rates of health care inflation.

This is a right wing totem.

3). Expand the role of nurses. 99% of the things doctors do can be handle by a nurse.

This is already being done.

4). Drugs should not require prescriptions. How much time and money is wasted on seeing doctors to fill prescriptions? Buying ADD medication should be just as easy as buying cough medication. Can you imagine how expensive cough syrup would be if it needed a prescription? Instead of $10, it might cost $100 or $200. On top of that, you would need to pay another $100 just to get a doctor to say you're allowed to have it. This is such a stupid system.

Drugs should definitely require prescriptions. Perhaps some drugs that are currently prescription only should not be, but overall prescriptions are an absolutely vital part of any well-functioning health system. Removing them would be a catastrophe.

None of these will ever be fixed. You will never see OTC syringes that are prefilled with hydromorphone. You will never see legal marijuana. You will never see lower medical prices for anything.

We already have legal marijuana in some places and it's only expanding. Hopefully that expands to all drugs someday. Where have you been?

 

[zanejohnson]

I agree!



Total costs associated with lawsuits are somewhere around 2% of costs. They are not the cause of our problems. Furthermore, states that have instituted "tort reform" have not experienced noticeably lower rates of health care inflation.

This is a right wing totem.



This is already being done.



Drugs should definitely require prescriptions. Perhaps some drugs that are currently prescription only should not be, but overall prescriptions are an absolutely vital part of any well-functioning health system. Removing them would be a catastrophe.



We already have legal marijuana in some places and it's only expanding. Hopefully that expands to all drugs someday. Where have you been?

i dont agree with the part about prescriptions....

everyone who uses illicit drugs is pretty much self medicating... with black market alternatives..

nobody just becomes an addict because they think it's somehow cool. if you remove the need for prescriptions, you remove the black market.

edit: i'm talking about narcotic prescriptions, not about stuff like antibiotics and hypertension meds...

but even with those meds, most people who need them are versed enough in pharmacology to know what they need.

 

[fskimospy]

i dont agree with the part about prescriptions....

everyone who uses illicit drugs is pretty much self medicating... with black market alternatives..

nobody just becomes an addict because they think it's somehow cool.

So you think that people should be able to take antibiotics whenever they want? Considering how much they are overused even with prescriptions and how it contributes to antibiotic resistant bacteria, say goodbye to antibiotics in a short time.

Many drugs can have harmful or even fatal interactions with other drugs and those interactions are not at all obvious to patients. Say hello to lots of additional deaths from unintended drug interactions.

Don't those two things seem like good reasons to have prescriptions?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

you know what?

this is the first time i've EVER seen both sides of the debate, D's and R's... agree on anything.

that's progress.

what are we agreeing on exactly? that our system of healthcare SUCKS ASS, and WE'RE GETTING SHAFTED HARD.

That people understand that there is problem is one thing, comprehending the size, scope and nature of it is another. I don't get into it as much as I used to because it's rather pointless.

 

[zanejohnson]

So you think that people should be able to take antibiotics whenever they want? Considering how much they are overused even with prescriptions and how it contributes to antibiotic resistant bacteria, say goodbye to antibiotics in a short time.

Many drugs can have harmful or even fatal interactions with other drugs and those interactions are not at all obvious to patients. Say hello to lots of additional deaths from unintended drug interactions.

Don't those two things seem like good reasons to have prescriptions?

i edited at the same time you posted...

i do see your point with antibiotics and drug interactions, yes we do need prescriptions when it comes to those things, but shouldn't that be the pharmacist's job?

 

[Newell Steamer]

First and foremost, yes, ACA has helped quite a few people. But, it is no where near to what we need; Universal Healthcare.

ACA is frankly a mutated Obamaabomination, I would honestly love to see it die, provided it gets replaced with Universal Healthcare.

There is no excuse against it, other than the usual good old boys that rant and rave over socialism and their usual fear mongering rhetoric bullshit.

It's embarrassing how other countries get healthcare right, and they are considered to be worse than the US - and, it all because a group of people want to make a shit load of money over it; which, if you criticize, a hur dur dur.