Universal Health Care Vermont....Not Just Yet

[ivwshane]

The way I see it, the rest of the world hasn't done as wonderful of a job as you want to believe.
Liberals love to advertise the good while leaving out the bad. They almost sound like a bad Michael Moore movie (well, they are bad regardless...).
Europe is drowning in debt, healthcare while cheap or free is also becoming overrun, taxes are choking the populace. And it is expected to get worse. Eventually Europe will become like Greece if things continue on this path. The current EU economic and social policies are unsustainable on several different fronts.

http://www.bruegel.org/publications...lem-and-its-implications-for-economic-growth/

In short, the EU is hanging by an economic and social thread. In short, they are likely fucked if the current path continues. You can't keep taxing the hell out of the population before something eventually gives.

The issue isn't taxes (the eurozone has some of the lowest corporate taxes), the issue is spending. During the recession the US decided to spend, Europe decided to cut, guess who was right? Germany did the same thing and they are now cutting back on their spending, how well do you think that's working our for them?

But none of that has anything to do with the type of healthcare system they have. Just look at canada who is doing pretty well (unless oil tanks more) and they have universal health care.

So I disagree with your point completely.

 

[Sonikku]

They are fake covered, Moonbeam, as America has no money to pay the Doctors, Nurses, etc.

Just like this person who served us in the military, is fake covered.

-John

At artificially high prices, I might add.

Obama Care is an Obamanation.

-John

He used to be really covered... Tricare was golden in the health care industry. Today, after ObamaCare, not so much.

-John

We're all golden.

<wry grin>

-John

Someone wants in the Lifer forum. :sneaky:

 

[soulcougher73]

Gotta get the costs down/under control before you can successfully have UHC in my opinion. Hard to pay for a super car on a economy car budget

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I think it's really just a matter of time before universal health care in the US is reality.

It's not inevitable. The populace subscribes to a free market religion, and universal health care violates every tenant of that.

The notion that the top 1 or 5% of the population are not entitled to become fabulously wealthy on the backs of the little people is sacrilege. So, our nation will just continue to transform into a Central American banana republic. There are too many Joe the Plumber morons who will vote against their own economic self interest for it to do otherwise.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Show me a country with UHC with the scale of the U.S. I'm talking from a population perspective. Then tell me how a government that can't run a healthcare system for veterans will run one covering not just the citizens of the nation but that includes anyone that crosses our unsecured borders and keep in mind that those folks are numbered in the tens of millions and growing exponentially.

...The alternative is...?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

The way I see it, the rest of the world hasn't done as wonderful of a job as you want to believe.
Liberals love to advertise the good while leaving out the bad. They almost sound like a bad Michael Moore movie (well, they are bad regardless...).
Europe is drowning in debt, healthcare while cheap or free is also becoming overrun, taxes are choking the populace.

What percentage of GDP are they spending on health care? Certainly they have other economic issues, but if you simply look at their health care system, how is that faring compared to the American system?

The American system is a complete dumpster fire compared to how all of those evil socialist "people's states" are doing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

...The alternative is...?

I've given you alternatives as to how to approach it, but the approach most forcefully pushed is to give the people who created the NSA problem, the Iraq War and the faux ISIS crisis control of something infinitely more complex and certainly far beyond their understanding relative to those trivial issues. You aren't going to get UHC that others have. Not nearly least of which is because health isn't going to be the priority, political gain is and that point is almost universally ignored. You might as well have a primitive culture where murder is unknown run the DOJ. Hey, no murder means a good job!

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I've given you alternatives as to how to approach it, but the approach most forcefully pushed is to give the people who created the NSA problem, the Iraq War and the faux ISIS crisis control of something infinitely more complex and certainly far beyond their understanding relative to those trivial issues. You aren't going to get UHC that others have. Not nearly least of which is because health isn't going to be the priority, political gain is and that point is almost universally ignored. You might as well have a primitive culture where murder is unknown run the DOJ. Hey, no murder means a good job!

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps Americans are so culturally and politically heterogeneous, and lacking in any sense of nationalism or unity that our government will always be completely dysfunctional. If that's the case then we're simply doomed to becoming a third world banana republic regardless of whether we have true free market health care or communist British health care.

Perhaps we should just accept that millions of Americans are destined to die and suffer and become impoverished from lack of health care or the costs of health care and just give up trying to fix the problem.

Your brilliant alternatives must not have been very compelling since I don't remember them. Let me guess, you want to end all torts litigation so that doctors and hospitals no longer have to worry about recklessness and negligence? Then you want to life all regulations on health care and adopt a laissez-faire system like in Somalia?

 

[ivwshane]

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps Americans are so culturally, politically heterogeneous, and lacking in any sense of nationalism or unity that our government will always be completely dysfunctional. If that's the case then we're simply doomed to becoming a third world banana republic regardless of whether we have true free market health care or communist British health care.

Perhaps we should just accept that millions of Americans are destined to die and suffer and become impoverished from lack of health care or the costs of health care and just give up trying to fix the problem.

Your brilliant alternatives must not have been very compelling since I don't remember them. Let me guess, you want to end all torts litigation so that doctors and hospitals no longer have to worry about recklessness and negligence?

He actually has some good ideas and they typically address cost and better doctor/patient interactions. The problem with hyabusa is that he wants it his way and will only accept change if it happens his way. He fails to understand that our government was setup to work slowly and that any change that will happen will be slow. It's unfortunate because his energy gets misdirected, he is focused on the end game and not how the game is played. If you don't play the game you will never win.

 

[glenn1]

We're all golden.

<wry grin>

-John

#94

 

[sportage]

Not only will UHC will never happen, we all will be up a creek if the newly elected republicans have their way come January 2015.
Republicans have made it quite clear they plan returning everyone back into a full blown healthcare for profit system, where costs rise yearly, and year after year people are added to that list of those locked out of healthcare due to high costs.

After republicans have their way, we will all be back to that system where people simply show up at the ER, the most expensive solution of all, and those lucky enough to still have private healthcare will once again pay that ER bill for all those uninsured.

People get caught up in this Obamacare cost thing, or the predicted cost of an actual UHC system.
But what they never compare that cost to is our full blown healthcare for profit system. Healthcare for profit, not only the most expensive system of all for the individual and for the economy as a whole, but also still resulting in the highest number of uninsured.

With the republicans about to take over, we will no longer see any reasoning yet alone logic to their method of madness.
People will suffer, the economy will suffer, the nation will become weaker, and the spread between middle class and wealthy upper class will continue to expand at a much faster rate.
What is about to happen, the middle class will indeed be redefined as the class of poverty.
Boiled down to two classes of people. Those in poverty and those of great wealth.
And as more and more laws are passed to ensure the wealthy are the ones controlling our politics, and controlling every aspect of our politics, the result will be an end to democracy within America as we know it.

It won't matter if the impoverished, the new middle class, suddenly realize what has happened, or want to change things to a more level playing field. It will be too late. The deck will have already been stacked against any such change. All politics will be controlled by the top one percent and by the corporations. Republicans will have what they always wanted, full control under the richest of the rich.
And the little guy? He won't matter. Never again will you matter.

The sad part given this new system will be enabled by the very same people this new system considers as the enemy.
Think of it as WWII with the Jews striking the very match igniting the very furnaces they will soon be lead into.

UHC? Forget that. Social security? Forget that as well.
And you can forget affordable education, affordable housing, a living wage, a decent chance, and anything nears a level playing field.
The corporations and the most wealthy of the wealthy will call all the shots and control all the wealth.
All while continuing to stack the deck when it comes to laws and politics, enabling forever it will be them and only them calling all the shots.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Not only will UHC will never happen, we all will be up a creek if the newly elected republicans have their way come January 2015.
Republicans have made it quite clear they plan returning everyone back into a full blown healthcare for profit system, where costs rise yearly, and year after year people are added to that list of those locked out of healthcare due to high costs.

After republicans have their way, we will all be back to that system where people simply show up at the ER, the most expensive solution of all, and those lucky enough to still have private healthcare will once again pay that ER bill for all those uninsured.

People get caught up in this Obamacare cost thing, or the predicted cost of an actual UHC system.
But what they never compare that cost to is our full blown healthcare for profit system. Healthcare for profit, not only the most expensive system of all for the individual and for the economy as a whole, but also still resulting in the highest number of uninsured.

With the republicans about to take over, we will no longer see any reasoning yet alone logic to their method of madness.
People will suffer, the economy will suffer, the nation will become weaker, and the spread between middle class and wealthy upper class will continue to expand at a much faster rate.
What is about to happen, the middle class will indeed be redefined as the class of poverty.
Boiled down to two classes of people. Those in poverty and those of great wealth.
And as more and more laws are passed to ensure the wealthy are the ones controlling our politics, and controlling every aspect of our politics, the result will be an end to democracy within America as we know it.

It won't matter if the impoverished, the new middle class, suddenly realize what has happened, or want to change things to a more level playing field. It will be too late. The deck will have already been stacked against any such change. All politics will be controlled by the top one percent and by the corporations. Republicans will have what they always wanted, full control under the richest of the rich.
And the little guy? He won't matter. Never again will you matter.

The sad part given this new system will be enabled by the very same people this new system considers as the enemy.
Think of it as WWII with the Jews striking the very match igniting the very furnaces they will soon be lead into.

UHC? Forget that. Social security? Forget that as well.
And you can forget affordable education, affordable housing, a living wage, a decent chance, and anything nears a level playing field.
The corporations and the most wealthy of the wealthy will call all the shots and control all the wealth.
All while continuing to stack the deck when it comes to laws and politics, enabling forever it will be them and only them calling all the shots.

The bots are getting better at producing walls of text. To quote Lincoln

He can compress the most words into the smallest ideas of any man I ever met.