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United States Budget Dilemma, are we going to be like Greece?

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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,325
126
If someone can't figure that basic stuff out on their own, explaining it to them isn't going to do any good. My bet is this guy heard the slogan "everyone needs to have some skin in the game" and to his simple mind that sounded good.
We all need to be forced to pay for the services we desire in the here and now in order to solve this problem.

You simply can't beat math. Medicare and medicaid have been increasing at 9% a year for decades, that means if nothing is done we will be spending approx. $2 trillion in 10 years just for medicare and medicaid. That is higher than both inflation and even the rosiest of growth projections. My point is very simple, simply taxing the rich will not even come close to solving this problem. The only reason I think that taxing the fuck out of everyone (paying for the services that we as a country say we want with current revenue) is pretty much the only solution because then and only then will we as a country start having a serious discussion about what we are willing to pay for.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,917
173
106
-snip-
How are we going to solve this huge problem without touching the big fat elephants of SS, Medicare/aid, and other mandatory spending programs?
SS is not a problem. I'm pretty sure we've not used any money from the general fund for it. I.e., none of the debt/deficit is attributable to SS itself. (In fact it's been cheaply funding our debt visa-vis the low rate special SS bonds.)

Medicare and Medicaid is another matter. But the real problem is the underlying costs of medical care and our HC system. Until those underlying problems are solved there can be no fix for Medicare/caid.

Fern
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,325
126
You mean like the Housing Bubble that Bush road to "prosperity"...Obama needs a bubble..what should it be?
Already in it, the "Government" bubble.

Its actually very simple to see, this is the equation used to calculate GDP:




C= Private consumption
I= gross investment
G= Government spending
X= exports
M= imports
So, basic math time. The "G" part of the equation includes over a trillion in borrowed money. If and when you take that out GDP must mathematically decline, arguably by more than what was removed. On the flip side, we could have increased GDP this year much more if we had borrowed more money.

Just for fun, use the above equation to figure out what our GDP would be this year without the deficit spending. You can do the same for most of the last few decades and well into the next decade......
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,313
2
0
The US will do the same thing that Greece is doing, which is to say nothing. It will keep walking toward the cliff until it goes off it. I think everybody knows this.
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,185
107
106
This is why I am shocked that republicans even have a snowballs chance in hell against democrats. Democrats are the party of give you free shit while you do nothing and they steal from the rich. Republicans are the party of everyone does their fair share and everyone makes an honest living no matter how meager the salary. If I wasnt so smart I would be voting democrat.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
The US will do the same thing that Greece is doing, which is to say nothing. It will keep walking toward the cliff until it goes off it. I think everybody knows this.
What we are going to do is print more money to put it off for just a little bit longer. Eventually however our creditors will wise up and inflation will come in to kick us in the teeth being that interest rates are pegged at zero and the tools in the Federal Reserve's tool box are quickly wearing out (cough...QE anyone?). So while the biggest issue with Greece was that they couldn't devalue their money (In order to put off their debt woes and/or stall for time to re-organized their own house because they were part of a union of states) that does not mean their issues would of been solved automatically solved anymore so then Zimbabwe solved its own economic issues by over relying on the printinig press and thus creating massive hyper-inflation.
 
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child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,310
175
106
Spending cuts and increases in revenue but they need to be gradual. All of the entitlement programs need some cuts and reform.

My sister in law sits at home on her computer all day long on Facebook but claims she can't work and somehow gets Social Security Disability after probably earning a whopping $200k her whole life (she's 43). That shit needs to stop.
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,185
107
106
Spending cuts and increases in revenue but they need to be gradual. All of the entitlement programs need some cuts and reform.

My sister in law sits at home on her computer all day long on Facebook but claims she can't work and somehow gets Social Security Disability after probably earning a whopping $200k her whole life (she's 43). That shit needs to stop.
If youve got the balls report her.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,833
1
0
Shut up already. The US is not going to collapse. We get it. You guys think you're smart because you read some (wrong) economist's work religiously and obsess over currency and debt and world finance. And we're tired of you always speculating about this collapse or that apocalypse. Money isn't real. It's made up by humans. Get over it. Go outside and smell a flower or something.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,435
84
91
Shut up already. The US is not going to collapse. We get it. You guys think you're smart because you read some (wrong) economist's work religiously and obsess over currency and debt and world finance. And we're tired of you always speculating about this collapse or that apocalypse. Money isn't real. It's made up by humans. Get over it. Go outside and smell a flower or something.
Ok so move away from the human construct of money. So that lazy person is hungry. You think that farmer who got up at 4 a.m. every day for the last 6 months to work his crops and traded 6 pigs for gas and fertilizer is going to hand over food to the lazy person because there is no such thing as money? Even without "money" there will be haves and have nots and there will be people who work for what they have and those who will mooch.

The moochers will expect food as their right. When the government cannot provide that payment, they will riot.
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
4,387
5
81
Get out of this country while you can, America is a declining superpower. The only thing allowing it to keep that status is the most powerful military.

But if your economy is based on lies (debt, entitlements, borrowing, weak manufacturing, deficits), it cannot be sustained forever.

To top it all off, our politicians are morons, and the average American is a moron, and the entire 2 party system is a broken failed system. corporations rule elections since money is speech and they are people. How does GWB get re-elected?

They are doing their best to distract you from the real issues though by keeping us occupied with gay marriage, voter fraud, fear of terrorism (which allows them to strip our rights away), and class warfare on both ends.

A collapse is coming, no doubt about that. We are all going to be reset and have to start from scratch.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,917
1,360
126
Get out of this country while you can, <snip>.
To where?

EU is even worse shape financially than the US.

Canada? Australia? Brazil? Heck, might as well go to Antarctica and be an iceman. Then the ice may melt away from earth warming. :(
 

lord_emperor

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,380
1
0
I generally agree with that, but I still think that everyone still needs to pay at something at least, even it is just $50. Take a look at this chart and tell me where it is heading. In 30 years, only 10% of the population will actually pay income tax? Is that sustainable? If you don't pay income tax, it is pretty easy to vote for someone who is going to spend like a drunken sailor, be it repub or dem. And yes, I understand that they pay other taxes, like sales tax, etc, but people do that without even thinking. When you fill out that tax return, and you have to pay money at the end of the year, the realization that money doesn't come out of thin air sets in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/18/who-doesnt-pay-taxes-in-charts/
You have worse problems when 90% of the population isn't earning enough to pay taxes. The other 10% would probably be all too happy to bear the tax burden after manipulating the economy to that extent of wealth concentration.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
We all need to be forced to pay for the services we desire in the here and now in order to solve this problem.

You simply can't beat math. Medicare and medicaid have been increasing at 9% a year for decades, that means if nothing is done we will be spending approx. $2 trillion in 10 years just for medicare and medicaid. That is higher than both inflation and even the rosiest of growth projections. My point is very simple, simply taxing the rich will not even come close to solving this problem. The only reason I think that taxing the fuck out of everyone (paying for the services that we as a country say we want with current revenue) is pretty much the only solution because then and only then will we as a country start having a serious discussion about what we are willing to pay for.
Unfortunately, a very large percentage of this country's voting populace is either unwilling or unable to admit that we cannot simply borrow and spend ever more, ad infinitum. When interest payments exceed our revenue, we'll simply borrow money to make the interest payments.

e.g.
Shut up already. The US is not going to collapse. We get it. You guys think you're smart because you read some (wrong) economist's work religiously and obsess over currency and debt and world finance. And we're tired of you always speculating about this collapse or that apocalypse. Money isn't real. It's made up by humans. Get over it. Go outside and smell a flower or something.
These people are currently a plurality sufficient to win election, and our education system isn't getting any better. Soon, these people will be a majority. At that point, the Democrats will have a super majority in both chambers and can begin spending the multi-trillion dollar annual stimulus programs they've been asking for, without any dissenting voices or any need to cave to political pressure. From then on, American will not be salvageable. We'll eventually have to splinter into smaller, Balkanized nations, because at that point a shipload of American dollars won't buy a loaf of bread outside of America and we won't have any prospects of ever again being able to meet our restructured loan interests payments. Given that our success has bred widespread resentment, we've become accustomed to a fairly lavish lifestyle, we now feel entitled to that lifestyle, and our manufacturing base has already been taken over by China, there will be little reason for any nation to try to rescue us like Greece or Argentina. And even if other nations wished to try, a nation with hundreds of millions of spoiled, entitled dilettantes watching Honey Boo Boo and demanding their "right" to consume more than they produce is not easily raised from its own filth.

Hey, we had a good run, until we learned we could vote ourselves goodies and lost all moral reasons to do otherwise.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,183
60
91
The economy would improve if we had just had A program to encourage people to make things in the USA. Maybe a tax break for making or assembling things in the USA in America to help get people some jobs. I think something we should put a stop to is giving tax abatements to businesses. No one gave me a 5 year tax abatement for purchasing my house! So how do you think they make up the difference in taxes? They raise everyone elses taxes on their houses.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Paul Ryan takes a stab at curbing medicare entitlements, has ad's of grand-ma dieing put on tv against him.

Thats you liberal left wing party folks. Try to slow down entitlement spending, and your cast as a old person grand-ma killing monster.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,310
175
106
Paul Ryan takes a stab at curbing medicare entitlements, has ad's of grand-ma dieing put on tv against him.

Thats you liberal left wing party folks. Try to slow down entitlement spending, and your cast as a old person grand-ma killing monster.
Both parties do it and it's despicable.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,947
2,325
126
This is why I am shocked that republicans even have a snowballs chance in hell against democrats. Democrats are the party of give you free shit while you do nothing and they steal from the rich. Republicans are the party of everyone does their fair share and everyone makes an honest living no matter how meager the salary. If I wasnt so smart I would be voting democrat.
Yet President Bush signed into the law the biggest expansion of entitlement programs in decades...... How bout that?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Yet President Bush signed into the law the biggest expansion of entitlement programs in decades...... How bout that?
The Republican Party is morphing into an alternative Democrat Party because we as a nation have decided we want our government to take wealth from others and give it to us. Thus today's Democrat Party is economically the 1980s Socialist Party and today's Republican Party is economically the 1980s Democrat Party. Oddly, today's Republican Party is even more conservative on social issues though, at a time when fewer people are conservative on social issues.

Morph forward twenty years and it may not be so much a contest between two political ideologies as a contest to decide which of two candidates with nice hair you want to implement the policies of Karl Marx. But that's the beauty of democracy; you always get the leaders you deserve.
 

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