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United States Budget Dilemma, are we going to be like Greece?

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,917
1,360
126
Not sure if anyone posted this or not but this is a good clip showing how much politicians from both sides lying to the teeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc



Interesting question from the clip, "the question is when, but not if, the US will collapse?".

How are we going to solve this huge problem without touching the big fat elephants of SS, Medicare/aid, and other mandatory spending programs? I think what the author said at the end of the clip is right, we all have to face the pains (cuts across the board - yes, even to the entitlement programs, and raise taxes) to fix this huge problem.
 
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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,353
1
81
*crickets*

No one wants to touch entitlements. We need people who are going to man up, make the cuts, and restore sanity. The problem is that people are insane so they fear sanity. They don't realize that, much like the woman in the Obamaphone video, they have become slaves to the very government programs they think are giving them a free ride through life. The longer we kick the can down the road, the more painful it will be when the debt is called in.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,760
11
81
Your post reminded me of this story I read this morning:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/medicare-working-to-boost-obama-in-swing-states-poll-finds/2012/09/27/b8a53a0e-0822-11e2-858a-5311df86ab04_story.html?hpid=z1

I especially love the last lines:

The problem for Republicans is that swelling budget deficits are not a sufficient motivator for voters. Across the three states, about three-quarters of voters say that Medicare cuts are not essential to deficit reduction.
Basically, no one cares about fiscal issues until it's far too late.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,760
11
81
*crickets*

No one wants to touch entitlements. We need people who are going to man up, make the cuts, and restore sanity. The problem is that people are insane so they fear sanity. They don't realize that, much like the woman in the Obamaphone video, they have become slaves to the very government programs they think are giving them a free ride through life. The longer we kick the can down the road, the more painful it will be when the debt is called in.
She can't really be a slave if she gets to sit at home and have things given to her. On the other hand, workers are made into slaves if their wages are taken from them to give free phones to layabouts.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,353
1
81
She can't really be a slave if she gets to sit at home and have things given to her. On the other hand, workers are made into slaves if their wages are taken from them to give free phones to layabouts.
Do you think her life is better sitting on the couch waiting for her new iObamaphone 5 to show up than it would be if she had meaningful work? My opinion is that in the current system, both the worker and the handout recipient are slaves.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,760
11
81
Do you think her life is better sitting on the couch waiting for her new iObamaphone 5 to show up than it would be if she had meaningful work? My opinion is that in the current system, both the worker and the handout recipient are slaves.
What I think is irrelevant. She seems to have made her choice. We just get to pay for it.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,353
1
81
What I think is irrelevant. She seems to have made her choice. We just get to pay for it.
What you think matters because you can vote to alter the system. Whether your vote will change anything is unlikely, but even someone as cynical as myself has to make a stand somewhere.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,712
9,730
136
I remember similar prophecies of doom during the Reagan/Bush 1 era. Then our Lord and Savior Bill Hume Clinton arrived and slashed that deficit like the Messiah he was, saving us from Judgement Day. But the heathens could not recognize Bill as the true Son of God and crucified him publicly, casting us back into the dark ages. The Second Coming has arrived with his ressurection as Obama and the snake oil used to confuse the people last time is no longer effective. If you will just accept Obama into your heart, you will know eternal salvation. Fear not, our Savior is back!
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,307
0
76
My thoughts on the matter are not really in line with either party. I think that everyone, and I mean everyone, should be paying income tax. I can remember when I was growing up not making squat for money, but still paying some income tax. You can't have 50% of the population not paying any income tax, with most of those actually receiving a check after the child tax credit, etc. When people lose touch with where the money is coming from, they also lose any desire to actually control spending. It doesn't touch them, so why should they care? On top of that I think we probably need to raise tax rates across the board to start digging out of this hole. And the entitlement spending has to be curbed, or it is going to bury us, even if the tax rate was 99%. We can't tax ourselves out of this massive pit we have dug........
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,712
9,730
136
My thoughts on the matter are not really in line with either party. I think that everyone, and I mean everyone, should be paying income tax. I can remember when I was growing up not making squat for money, but still paying some income tax. You can't have 50% of the population not paying any income tax, with most of those actually receiving a check after the child tax credit, etc. When people lose touch with where the money is coming from, they also lose any desire to actually control spending. It doesn't touch them, so why should they care? On top of that I think we probably need to raise tax rates across the board to start digging out of this hole. And the entitlement spending has to be curbed, or it is going to bury us, even if the tax rate was 99%. We can't tax ourselves out of this massive pit we have dug........
I agree the legal working age should be lowered to 0 and Social Securtiy checks should be taxed as well.
 

tydas

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2000
1,284
0
76
I guess when the free money stops the reckoning will begin...then again when the free money stops the people giving it to us will also be impacted because we can't buy thier shit and they will have no money and they will collapse...rightly so...

ahh economics..would be nice if we could simplify it like we do our household budget...
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
10,920
1,078
126
My thoughts on the matter are not really in line with either party. I think that everyone, and I mean everyone, should be paying income tax. I can remember when I was growing up not making squat for money, but still paying some income tax. You can't have 50% of the population not paying any income tax, with most of those actually receiving a check after the child tax credit, etc. When people lose touch with where the money is coming from, they also lose any desire to actually control spending. It doesn't touch them, so why should they care? On top of that I think we probably need to raise tax rates across the board to start digging out of this hole. And the entitlement spending has to be curbed, or it is going to bury us, even if the tax rate was 99%. We can't tax ourselves out of this massive pit we have dug........
The problem is that the lower 50% you speak of only controls something like 2.4% of the entirety of wealth in this nation. The reason for that is mostly because every bit they make goes into keeping themselves and their families fed, clothed, and sheltered. Increasing their taxes means that not only does that 2.4% share decline, but for many they simply wouldn't be able to afford to live anymore.

Someone makes $50million a year and they pay $7million a year in taxes which is 14%, if you increased their tax rate to 20% minimum, that means they now make $40million a year instead of $43million after taxes. Guess what, they're still rich, still able to get all they want, still able to invest that money and buy those luxury jets. You increase the tax rate of a person making $30k by 6%, that's $1800 less food the can eat or heat they can have in the winter or clothing they can have on their back.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,712
9,730
136
The problem is that the lower 50% you speak of only controls something like 2.4% of the entirety of wealth in this nation. The reason for that is mostly because every bit they make goes into keeping themselves and their families fed, clothed, and sheltered. Increasing their taxes means that not only does that 2.4% share decline, but for many they simply wouldn't be able to afford to live anymore.

Someone makes $50million a year and they pay $7million a year in taxes which is 14%, if you increased their tax rate to 20% minimum, that means they now make $40million a year instead of $43million after taxes. Guess what, they're still rich, still able to get all they want, still able to invest that money and buy those luxury jets. You increase the tax rate of a person making $30k by 6%, that's $1800 less food the can eat or heat they can have in the winter or clothing they can have on their back.
If someone can't figure that basic stuff out on their own, explaining it to them isn't going to do any good. My bet is this guy heard the slogan "everyone needs to have some skin in the game" and to his simple mind that sounded good.
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,307
0
76
The problem is that the lower 50% you speak of only controls something like 2.4% of the entirety of wealth in this nation. The reason for that is mostly because every bit they make goes into keeping themselves and their families fed, clothed, and sheltered. Increasing their taxes means that not only does that 2.4% share decline, but for many they simply wouldn't be able to afford to live anymore.

Someone makes $50million a year and they pay $7million a year in taxes which is 14%, if you increased their tax rate to 20% minimum, that means they now make $40million a year instead of $43million after taxes. Guess what, they're still rich, still able to get all they want, still able to invest that money and buy those luxury jets. You increase the tax rate of a person making $30k by 6%, that's $1800 less food the can eat or heat they can have in the winter or clothing they can have on their back.
I generally agree with that, but I still think that everyone still needs to pay at something at least, even it is just $50. Take a look at this chart and tell me where it is heading. In 30 years, only 10% of the population will actually pay income tax? Is that sustainable? If you don't pay income tax, it is pretty easy to vote for someone who is going to spend like a drunken sailor, be it repub or dem. And yes, I understand that they pay other taxes, like sales tax, etc, but people do that without even thinking. When you fill out that tax return, and you have to pay money at the end of the year, the realization that money doesn't come out of thin air sets in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/18/who-doesnt-pay-taxes-in-charts/
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,712
9,730
136
I generally agree with that, but I still think that everyone still needs to pay at something at least, even it is just $50. Take a look at this chart and tell me where it is heading. In 30 years, only 10% of the population will actually pay income tax? Is that sustainable? If you don't pay income tax, it is pretty easy to vote for someone who is going to spend like a drunken sailor, be it repub or dem. And yes, I understand that they pay other taxes, like sales tax, etc, but people do that without even thinking. When you fill out that tax return, and you have to pay money at the end of the year, the realization that money doesn't come out of thin air sets in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/18/who-doesnt-pay-taxes-in-charts/
Oh lol, I just love it when I am right. It's almost like you actually believe these people pay no taxes at all.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
Oh lol, I just love it when I am right. It's almost like you actually believe these people pay no taxes at all.
Did he say he realized they pay other taxes?

Plus, how do these other taxes affect the national debt and deficit problem at all? The problem is with revenue from federal income tax isn't it?
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,307
0
76
Oh lol, I just love it when I am right. It's almost like you actually believe these people pay no taxes at all.
I see your reading comprehension skills are somewhat weak, so I guess you didn't read this part of what I posted......

"And yes, I understand that they pay other taxes, like sales tax, etc, but people do that without even thinking"

For such an incredible intellect, I am guessing that maybe English is your second langauge....... :)
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,712
9,730
136
Did he say he realized they pay other taxes?

Plus, how do these other taxes affect the national debt and deficit problem at all? The problem is with revenue from federal income tax isn't it?
$50 from all the poor people in the world isn't going to fix our debt problem. Besides, he stated his reasoning right here:
I generally agree with that, but I still think that everyone still needs to pay at something at least, even it is just $50. Take a look at this chart and tell me where it is heading. In 30 years, only 10% of the population will actually pay income tax? Is that sustainable? If you don't pay income tax, it is pretty easy to vote for someone who is going to spend like a drunken sailor, be it repub or dem. And yes, I understand that they pay other taxes, like sales tax, etc, but people do that without even thinking. When you fill out that tax return, and you have to pay money at the end of the year, the realization that money doesn't come out of thin air sets in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/18/who-doesnt-pay-taxes-in-charts/
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
27,712
9,730
136
I see your reading comprehension skills are somewhat weak, so I guess you didn't read this part of what I posted......

"And yes, I understand that they pay other taxes, like sales tax, etc, but people do that without even thinking"

For such an incredible intellect, I am guessing that maybe English is your second langauge....... :)
Tis true, I didn't finish reading to the end of your post at first. I didn't think someone would think that after paying sales tax and payroll taxes etc. all year that the $50 thing at the end of the year would be enough to put them over the edge. I'll be sure to read your posts in their entirety from now on before I reply to avoid this scenario in the future.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
$50 from all the poor people in the world isn't going to fix our debt problem. Besides, he stated his reasoning right here:
Completely agree, but neither would $100,000 or even $1M from a rich person. The mathematics aren't there. There aren't enough rich people especially as soon as you started taxing like that.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,699
138
106
We don't need to take drastic steps and try and do this in one year, but we need to actually start taking steps. So that we have a chance to cut into the deficit spending.

One of the things is retirement age, which needs to be raised, and made so that it has something to do with average life expectancy. We are living much longer and can't support all the people on retirement for as long as many of them are.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
I am willing, even though I have paid in it for years, to forfeit my Social Security payments. They can keep all of my contributions and whatever earnings as long as I can stop paying from now on.

That should help out, right? Consider it my skin in the game. ^_^
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
I remember similar prophecies of doom during the Reagan/Bush 1 era. Then our Lord and Savior Bill Hume Clinton arrived and slashed that deficit like the Messiah he was, saving us from Judgement Day. But the heathens could not recognize Bill as the true Son of God and crucified him publicly, casting us back into the dark ages. The Second Coming has arrived with his ressurection as Obama and the snake oil used to confuse the people last time is no longer effective. If you will just accept Obama into your heart, you will know eternal salvation. Fear not, our Savior is back!
Yeah, maybe Obama will get lucky and there will be another tech bubble to ride to "prosperity"... :rolleyes:
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,587
9
81
The problem is that the lower 50% you speak of only controls something like 2.4% of the entirety of wealth in this nation. The reason for that is mostly because every bit they make goes into keeping themselves and their families fed, clothed, and sheltered. Increasing their taxes means that not only does that 2.4% share decline, but for many they simply wouldn't be able to afford to live anymore.

Someone makes $50million a year and they pay $7million a year in taxes which is 14%, if you increased their tax rate to 20% minimum, that means they now make $40million a year instead of $43million after taxes. Guess what, they're still rich, still able to get all they want, still able to invest that money and buy those luxury jets. You increase the tax rate of a person making $30k by 6%, that's $1800 less food the can eat or heat they can have in the winter or clothing they can have on their back.
How many people in this country make more than $5M/yr? Raise their taxes as much as you want and you'll have... not much. The middle class, the vast bulk of the population, needs to pay higher taxes.

Good luck with that.
 

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