unions continue to show their scumbaggery

Jul 10, 2007
12,041
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if this doesn't make you hate unions, i don't know what to say.
their strongarm tactics are truly despicable.

Text

When a company called Ausra filed plans for a big solar power plant in California, it was deluged with demands from a union group that it study the effect on creatures like the short-nosed kangaroo rat and the ferruginous hawk.

By contrast, when a competitor, BrightSource Energy, filed plans for an even bigger solar plant that would affect the imperiled desert tortoise, the same union group, California Unions for Reliable Energy, raised no complaint. Instead, it urged regulators to approve the project as quickly as possible.

One big difference between the projects? Ausra had rejected demands that it use only union workers to build its solar farm, while BrightSource pledged to hire labor-friendly contractors.

As California moves to license dozens of huge solar power plants to meet the state?s renewable energy goals, some developers contend they are being pressured to sign agreements pledging to use union labor. If they refuse, they say, they can count on the union group to demand costly environmental studies and deliver hostile testimony at public hearings.

If they commit at the outset to use union labor, they say, the environmental objections never materialize.

?This does stress the limits of credibility to some extent,? the California energy commissioner, Jeffrey Byron, said at one contentious hearing, ?when an attorney representing a labor union is so focused on the potential impact of a solar power plant on birds.?

Union leaders acknowledge that they make aggressive use of the environmental laws, but say they do it out of genuine concern for the sustainability of California?s power industry, not just as a negotiating tactic. And they contend they do not abandon valid environmental objections to a project just because a company signs a labor agreement.

?We?ve been tarred and feathered more than once on this issue,? said Marc Joseph, a lawyer for California Unions for Reliable Energy. ?We don?t walk away from environmental issues.?

At proposed fossil-fuel power plants, the union group has long been accused of exploiting environmental laws to force companies into signing labor agreements. The tactic is a subject of perennial discussion in the California legislature, which has considered, but never passed, bills to strip labor of its right to participate in environmental assessments.

What is new is that California Unions for Reliable Energy, a coalition of construction unions, appears to be applying this approach to new-age renewable energy projects, especially solar power plants, which are being fast-tracked to help meet the state?s green power target.

Lawyers for the union both negotiate labor agreements with solar developers and participate in the environmental review of the projects.

California Unions for Reliable Energy insists it is pursuing the long-term interests of its members. If energy projects are held to high environmental standards, the group says, more of them will ultimately get built, and that will mean more union jobs.

Nationwide, as billions of dollars in public and private investment flow to renewable energy projects, the environmental and labor battles being fought in California could prove to be the opening skirmishes of a larger fight over the emerging green economy.

Should Rust Belt factories converted to making solar components and wind turbines be union shops, gateways to the middle-class for a new generation of workers in the green economy? Or will the green economy look more like the service economy, with low-paid employees installing rooftop solar panels and retrofitting buildings?

For the labor movement, green jobs represent an opportunity to regain relevance after years of declining membership.

?Unions are trying to get a foothold in solar, wind and other new green occupations,? said Philip Mattera, research director for Good Jobs First, a labor-oriented research group in Washington.

?We?re at a turning point that will have an impact on the future of the whole economy, and a lot of unions are gearing up.?

But skeptics fear that union control of renewable energy projects will saddle the nascent industry with high costs and undermine its competitiveness.

?These environmental challenges are the unions? major tactic to maintain their share of industrial construction ? we call it greenmail,? said Kevin Dayton, state government affairs director for the Associated Builders and Contractors of California. ?The future of solar energy is jeopardized by these unions holding up construction.?

In California, project labor agreements can raise costs on a project by about 20 percent, Mr. Dayton estimated.

The fights of the moment center on solar farms proposed for tens of thousands of acres of desert and agricultural land.

When the utility giant the FPL Group ignored entreaties from California Unions for Reliable Energy to use union labor on a planned 250-megawatt solar farm, it was hit with 144 data requests, demanding details on things like ?the engine brand, model, and horsepower rating? of a water pump engine, ?the number of man-hours devoted to focused tortoise surveys, by location? and ?the role of each individual that participated.?

In filings with the California Energy Commission, Ausra has accused the union group of abusing environmental laws in a bid to extract a labor agreement. FPL?s lawyers accused the group of trying to stall the company?s solar project.

Bob Balgenorth, chairman of the labor group, makes no apologies for pushing hard for union jobs from solar developers while scrutinizing the environmental impact of the projects. ?You only have so much land that can accept solar power plants,? said Mr. Balgenorth, who has cultivated strong ties with conservation groups.

?So the question is, should that land be used for low-paid jobs or should that land be used for high-paid jobs??

Some solar developers say that signing a labor agreement is simply an unavoidable cost of doing business.

?Let?s just say that it is clear to us from experience that if we do not enter into a project labor agreement, the costs and schedule of the project is interminable,? said Douglas Wert, chief executive of Spinnaker Energy, a San Diego company hired to build two solar farms for Portuguese developer Martifer.

After Stirling Energy Systems filed plans with California regulators to install 30,000 solar dishes on 10 square miles of desert land, its executives got a call from Mr. Joseph, the union lawyer. Sean Gallagher, a vice president for Tessera Solar, the development arm for Stirling, said the company declined Mr. Joseph?s request to commit to using union labor.

California Unions for Reliable Energy subsequently filed 143 data requests with the company on the final day such requests could be made, and later intervened in a second, 850-megawatt Stirling solar project.

It was a different story after BrightSource Energy pledged to hire union-friendly contractors to build its Mojave Desert solar power plant complex. Despite questions raised by environmental groups about the project?s impact on wildlife, the union group took no action, according to commission documents.

Mr. Joseph said that the labor group wants to mediate between environmentalists and BrightSource, which is based in Oakland, Calif.

?We?re actually hoping that we can help resolve these issues in a way that allows that project to go forward and gives maximum protection to the desert tortoise,? he said.

He said he sees ?absolutely no conflict of interest? in seeking labor agreements from solar developers while challenging the environmental effect of the projects. ?It is in the interest of construction workers to have good middle class jobs ? and to have conventional and renewable power plants that are sustainable,? Mr. Joseph said.

The union group?s strategy drew plaudits from environmentalists when the group was winning agreements from developers to cut pollution from fossil fuel power plants. But as some conservation groups ally themselves with business interests to push for a rapid rollout of renewable energy, strains are showing in the so-called blue-green alliance.

Some environmental groups are worried that the labor tactics will delay green energy projects and cause a backlash, but they are reluctant to go public with criticisms of the labor movement.

Others, like the Natural Resources Defense Council, are trying to steer clear of the controversy.

The council ?hasn?t taken a position on whether union labor should or shouldn?t be used in these projects,? said Sheryl Carter, the group?s co-director of energy programs.

And still others defend the labor group?s role.

Carl Zichella, the Sierra Club?s director of western renewable programs, said California Unions for Reliable Energy had been effective at extracting concessions that aid the environment.

?It?s not a warm fuzzy thing they are doing; it?s a very self-interested thing they?re doing,? he said. ?But it has a large ancillary public benefit.?
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
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Where did you get this from? You quote an article but don't provide the link, or even a title or author.

Anyway, this is par for the course for California, and is one of the big reasons why the state is sinking further and further each day. A heavily unionized blue state is rapidly crumbling, so what do they do? More of the same junk that got them there in the first place.

Edit: You added the link in later. Thanks! :thumbsup:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,624
6,452
126
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
86,220
51,792
136
So let me get this straight, you're angry at unions for acting in their own self interest.

THIS IS BREAKING NEWS.
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
869
63
91
Nothing surprising there.
It's all greed. They don't give a rats ass about the environment.

 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
3
0
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Where did you get this from? You quote an article but don't provide the link, or even a title or author.

Anyway, this is par for the course for California, and is one of the big reasons why the state is sinking further and further each day. A heavily unionized blue state is rapidly crumbling, so what do they do? More of the same junk that got them there in the first place.

nytimes
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Originally posted by: her209
Environmental studies should be done regardless.

?This does stress the limits of credibility to some extent,? the California energy commissioner, Jeffrey Byron, said at one contentious hearing, ?when an attorney representing a labor union is so focused on the potential impact of a solar power plant on birds.?

The unions just used the "environmental studies" as an excuse to muck up the process because the company wouldn't agree to go with unionized labor. Notice how they didn't raise any such concerns about "environmental studies" with the company that is pro-union?
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
869
63
91
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
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Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Originally posted by: her209
Environmental studies should be done regardless.
?This does stress the limits of credibility to some extent,? the California energy commissioner, Jeffrey Byron, said at one contentious hearing, ?when an attorney representing a labor union is so focused on the potential impact of a solar power plant on birds.?

The unions just used the "environmental studies" as an excuse to muck up the process because the company wouldn't agree to go with unionized labor. Notice how they didn't raise any such concerns about "environmental studies" with the company that is pro-union?
Environmental studies should be done regardless. It shouldn't take a lawsuit.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

This. It isn't 1890 any more. There are tons of federal and state laws on the books to protect employees. Unions don't really have a reason to exist in this day and age, but there's good money in it for the union bosses. So, they have to constantly create issues to keep their power so that the bosses can keep the bucks flowing into their pockets...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
86,220
51,792
136
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

Isn't everyone in our country supposed to be trying to squeeze every last penny out of everyone they can? Something tells me if a corporation were employing the exact same tactics people would have far less of a problem with it.

Trying to undermine other companies that give you worse terms? Trying to get more money for your same goods or services?

*monacle pops out*

WHY I NEVER!
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
869
63
91
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

Isn't everyone in our country supposed to be trying to squeeze every last penny out of everyone they can? Something tells me if a corporation were employing the exact same tactics people would have far less of a problem with it.

Trying to undermine other companies that give you worse terms? Trying to get more money for your same goods or services?

*monacle pops out*

WHY I NEVER!

Unions have become something akin to the mob. You either pay them for their protection, or they'll go after you.

People try to get as much money as they can, but they do it by giving their employers or their customers an added value. You sell your employer your skills. You offer your customer a better product. What does a union employee have to offer a business that a non union employee can't provide?
 

Pacemaker

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2001
1,184
2
0
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

Isn't everyone in our country supposed to be trying to squeeze every last penny out of everyone they can? Something tells me if a corporation were employing the exact same tactics people would have far less of a problem with it.

Trying to undermine other companies that give you worse terms? Trying to get more money for your same goods or services?

*monacle pops out*

WHY I NEVER!

Unions have become something akin to the mob. You either pay them for their protection, or they'll go after you.

People try to get as much money as they can, but they do it by giving their employers or their customers an added value. You sell your employer your skills. You offer your customer a better product. What does a union employee have to offer a business that a non union employee can't provide?

Protection from the union?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
86,220
51,792
136
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

Isn't everyone in our country supposed to be trying to squeeze every last penny out of everyone they can? Something tells me if a corporation were employing the exact same tactics people would have far less of a problem with it.

Trying to undermine other companies that give you worse terms? Trying to get more money for your same goods or services?

*monacle pops out*

WHY I NEVER!

Unions have become something akin to the mob. You either pay them for their protection, or they'll go after you.

People try to get as much money as they can, but they do it by giving their employers or their customers an added value. You sell your employer your skills. You offer your customer a better product. What does a union employee have to offer a business that a non union employee can't provide?

Businesses frequently employ tactics to make more money that don't give their customers an added value. You don't have to offer anyone anything, you go for the best deal you can get.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people when confronted with corporations that bargain hard say "well that's capitalism, don't like it? Too bad.", but when confronted with unions that do the same compare them to say... the mob.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

One, Moonbeam as a Californian likely knows that.

Two, you missed his point completely.

Three, I guess anything they want including to not starve could be called 'squeezing every last penny from whomever they can'. But can't that be said of everyone in a business deal?

Yet you only demonize one group. I smell ideology.
 

JeepinEd

Senior member
Dec 12, 2005
869
63
91
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JeepinEd
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We need to get back to slavery. It was so much easier than having to deal with people who think that their work should entitle them to anything. The very idea that a slave holder would allow his slaves to starve to death is preposterous. A dead slave is useless. Slaves are property to be respected. Workers are assholes who want things that should belong to you and anybody who owns slaves could care less if they die.

California actually has something called OSHA and the EDD. Believe it or not, they actually make sure that employees are treated and paid according to the law. Don't try to pull that slavery shit. Unions had their purpose many years ago. Now, they're just out to squeeze every last penny from whomever they can.

Isn't everyone in our country supposed to be trying to squeeze every last penny out of everyone they can? Something tells me if a corporation were employing the exact same tactics people would have far less of a problem with it.

Trying to undermine other companies that give you worse terms? Trying to get more money for your same goods or services?

*monacle pops out*

WHY I NEVER!

Unions have become something akin to the mob. You either pay them for their protection, or they'll go after you.

People try to get as much money as they can, but they do it by giving their employers or their customers an added value. You sell your employer your skills. You offer your customer a better product. What does a union employee have to offer a business that a non union employee can't provide?

Businesses frequently employ tactics to make more money that don't give their customers an added value. You don't have to offer anyone anything, you go for the best deal you can get.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people when confronted with corporations that bargain hard say "well that's capitalism, don't like it? Too bad.", but when confronted with unions that do the same compare them to say... the mob.


There is a difference between bargaining hard and what amounts to blackmail. A company is limited by what the market will bear. Customers also have the option to shop elsewhere. Unions have the power and money to force a company to comply to their demands. Either hire union workers, or we'll make it nearly impossible for you to do business here.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy

It never ceases to amaze me that some people when confronted with corporations that bargain hard say "well that's capitalism, don't like it? Too bad.", but when confronted with unions that do the same compare them to say... the mob.

As usual, Eskimo is right; there's some bizarre psychology that makes working-class people turn on each other a lot more than they unite against their 'real enemy'.

Show them a billionare exploiting thousands of people for big bucks, and they praise and defend him, but show them a person they think is getting a few government dollars or a few dollars higher wages as a union member and they lose their minds in hate for the person.

Makes it awfully easy for the propagandists. Any time there are rumblings against the wealthy, just toss out some story about welfrare fraud, and they're back to that.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
86,220
51,792
136
Originally posted by: JeepinEd

There is a difference between bargaining hard and what amounts to blackmail. A company is limited by what the market will bear. Customers also have the option to shop elsewhere. Unions have the power and money to force a company to comply to their demands. Either hire union workers, or we'll make it nearly impossible for you to do business here.

So now unions are suddenly these all powerful forces that extract cash from the poor poor corporations who are helpless against them. They either comply with the unions or they cannot do business. Are you joking?

Unions do the same thing all other businesses do, they use their bargaining power to get the best possible deal out of those they bargain with. Get over it.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It never ceases to amaze me that some people when confronted with corporations that bargain hard say "well that's capitalism, don't like it? Too bad.", but when confronted with unions that do the same compare them to say... the mob.

If JeepinEd has done that (defended extortion-like tactics by large corporations), some links would be helpful. Otherwise, this is just a strawman argument.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
3
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JeepinEd

There is a difference between bargaining hard and what amounts to blackmail. A company is limited by what the market will bear. Customers also have the option to shop elsewhere. Unions have the power and money to force a company to comply to their demands. Either hire union workers, or we'll make it nearly impossible for you to do business here.

So now unions are suddenly these all powerful forces that extract cash from the poor poor corporations who are helpless against them. They either comply with the unions or they cannot do business. Are you joking?

Unions do the same thing all other businesses do, they use their bargaining power to get the best possible deal out of those they bargain with. Get over it.

so is that the new term for blackmailing these days?
 

Pacemaker

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2001
1,184
2
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: JeepinEd

There is a difference between bargaining hard and what amounts to blackmail. A company is limited by what the market will bear. Customers also have the option to shop elsewhere. Unions have the power and money to force a company to comply to their demands. Either hire union workers, or we'll make it nearly impossible for you to do business here.

So now unions are suddenly these all powerful forces that extract cash from the poor poor corporations who are helpless against them. They either comply with the unions or they cannot do business. Are you joking?

Unions do the same thing all other businesses do, they use their bargaining power to get the best possible deal out of those they bargain with. Get over it.

Or use there bargaining power to do stupid crap like get the company to let them wear hats that have competitors logos on them, or fight the company because they can't smoke in the building anymore (state law). Both of those items almost got one of the unions in my town to strike. From what I understand the vote was very close.

That is stupid and an abuse of power.

If you have a real concern go ahead and complain and strike if necessary, but if those are the worst things you can come up with maybe you should STFU and do your job. You don't gain a lot of sympathy from people when you are willing to strike over nothing.