Union curbs rescue a Wisconsin school district

[davmat787]

One thing I am noticing in this thread is that those in favor of what is happening in WI know teachers whose work hours are inline with private sector or lower, and those not in favor know teachers whose work hours are much higher. :awe:

Take that for whatever it is worth. Anyone know any factual and unbiased studies regarding teacher work hours?

 

[boomerang]

One thing I am noticing in this thread is that those in favor of what is happening in WI know teachers whose work hours are inline with private sector or lower, and those not in favor know teachers whose work hours are much higher. :awe:

Take that for whatever it is worth. Anyone know any factual and unbiased studies regarding teacher work hours?

My guess would be that they don't exist but it really doesn't matter. As I said earlier, every teacher knew what they were getting into when they made the decision to become a teacher. They knew the requirements, the hours, the dedication, all that. They chose that position and it's important to remember that.

The economy is in the toilet. Millions are out of work. Many that are still working are getting promotions with no extra compensation. They're working more hours for less, taking on a higher workload and in many cases doing the work of co-workers that have lost their jobs. They're paying more for their benefits while those benefits are being reduced.

Teachers have got a pretty good PR system going. They've painted a picture that they should be immune from the sacrifices that many others are having to make. That has carried them for some time, but the day of reckoning has arrived. They'll survive just as legions before them have.

State workers are feeling the pain now and federal workers will be next. Somewhere in there the police and firefighter types will be called upon to sacrifice too. Few will be immune. If we're all lucky we'll come out of this on the other side stronger. The good times will roll again until our human weaknesses make us too greedy and the cycle will repeat.

It's going to take luck to pull us through this because politics in the U.S. creates a climate that is not conducive to solving problems. It's OK for the Affordable Care Act to cut half a trillion of out Medicare while not addressing the inherent problems with it, but when a member of Congress floats a plan that maps out shared sacrifice to keep Medicare afloat he's a pariah. This is our political system. No cooperation, no sacrifice, just keep kicking the can down the road and let the next guy take care of it.

On second thought maybe luck is not going to be enough.

 

[Jhhnn]

So, uhh, where are these demands for sacrifice when it comes to the financial elite, boomerang?

Or should the rest of us just bend over and take it in a situation that the people at the top created for their own benefit?

 

[RFE]

All teach professions require it, not even close to all private sector jobs do and frankly the constant staff meetings and courses for some new issue (harassment, etc.) are constant and done outside school hrs (8-3).

If you're going for comparisons to real world professionals, your argument falls to pieces quickly. Such a statement assumes that the commercial world/industry has completely stagnated and readily accepts mediocrity....as if there isn't a marketplace to compete in. When in fact, mediocre more likely describes our public educational system. More courses do not necessarily yield increased productivity, exemplified in the educational system of fail where pedigree determines your worth, not your output or contribution.

IT, telecommunications, mechanics, engineers, doctors, etc.....no updated skill sets required, eh? Rather than making legitimate comparisons, you chose to imply comparisons with people operating cash registers.

Additionally, comparing the continued education required by teachers with what real world professionals take on would be a total joke and you know it.

 

[davmat787]

My guess would be that they don't exist but it really doesn't matter. As I said earlier, every teacher knew what they were getting into when they made the decision to become a teacher. They knew the requirements, the hours, the dedication, all that. They chose that position and it's important to remember that.

The economy is in the toilet. Millions are out of work. Many that are still working are getting promotions with no extra compensation. They're working more hours for less, taking on a higher workload and in many cases doing the work of co-workers that have lost their jobs. They're paying more for their benefits while those benefits are being reduced.

Teachers have got a pretty good PR system going. They've painted a picture that they should be immune from the sacrifices that many others are having to make. That has carried them for some time, but the day of reckoning has arrived. They'll survive just as legions before them have.

State workers are feeling the pain now and federal workers will be next. Somewhere in there the police and firefighter types will be called upon to sacrifice too. Few will be immune. If we're all lucky we'll come out of this on the other side stronger. The good times will roll again until our human weaknesses make us too greedy and the cycle will repeat.

It's going to take luck to pull us through this because politics in the U.S. creates a climate that is not conducive to solving problems. It's OK for the Affordable Care Act to cut half a trillion of out Medicare while not addressing the inherent problems with it, but when a member of Congress floats a plan that maps out shared sacrifice to keep Medicare afloat he's a pariah. This is our political system. No cooperation, no sacrifice, just keep kicking the can down the road and let the next guy take care of it.

On second thought maybe luck is not going to be enough.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of public unions. They were fine for awhile perhaps, but it seems like the system is abused too often, and here we are. One of my biggest complaints with unions is with the "drunk teacher" cases and the like. Rewarding based on merit and performance is the way to go, that is how an organization will keep the best talent and allow it to rise to the top. Seniority based systems just don't work.

Too often administrations give in to union pressure, after all, it isn't their money they are using. The incentives all the way around just aren't there.

 

[Greenman]

You don't know any teachers do you? Ask them how many hours a day they work.

I know four. They don't work one single hour outside of the class room, 8:10 till 3:30. They make 55k a year, have killer benefits, every Federal holiday off, and summers free to do as they please. They also accumulate sick day's.

It ain't a bad deal at all.

 

[boomerang]

So, uhh, where are these demands for sacrifice when it comes to the financial elite, boomerang?

Or should the rest of us just bend over and take it in a situation that the people at the top created for their own benefit?

There are things in this world that I have control over and there are things that I don't. I don't dwell on what I can't control. My time here on this earth is short. While I recognize that there are many inequities in this world of ours, I also recognize that changing this world is not going to happen overnight and most certainly not in my lifetime. So, I choose to live my life in a manner that suits me, do what I can to help others to the extent that I can and live and let live.

So here's something that you may find surprising to hear from me. I think the uber rich can most certainly contribute more. I feel they have an obligation to do so. I don't think you'll find a post here from me defending a need for the status quo to be maintained for the wealthy. But the difference between us is that I look at them with a feeling of respect for what they've accomplished. I get the impression that you look at them with disgust and disdain. Yes, I understand some may not have accumulated their wealth through methods that I would necessarily condone. I do expect our system of laws to pursue those that don't and prosecute them when called for. Bernie Madoff? The system works but like the humans that created it, it's not perfect.

But I also realize who makes the laws. You have to be realistic about it. Sometimes the right is making the laws and sometimes the left is making the laws. Nothing changes. Why is that? Why is one 'side' inherently better than the other when neither is addressing the problems? So, I'm back to what I can and can't change. I can dwell on it or I can get on with my life. I can feel that I must bend over and take it, or I can understand that in my short time on earth I'm not going to change it and just live. But we need people like yourself. Nothing will ever change without folks like yourself. So that's good.

Back to being realistic. I understand that if we took everything from every rich individual and corporation we wouldn't even make a dent in the debt our country has run up. So it's symbolic. That doesn't mean that they can't contribute more. That doesn't mean that loopholes shouldn't be closed. That doesn't mean that the tax code shouldn't be changed so as not to favor the uber rich. But whose going to do it? Neither Republicans or Democrats are willing to give these issues much more than lip service. Yet you and I feel that 'our' party is better than the other. They're the same. The only difference is that their message, which is bullshit, is tailored to appeal to our core beliefs. Tailored to make us think that they're different.

The words aren't flowing that well this evening. I have too many other things on my mind. I may add to this in the morning.

 

[Darwin333]

Once again in the same day you get it wrong. Most teachers I know have to update their education to maintain their certification. Meaning alot of them are in college taking a course or courses during the summer break at there own expense. Also because of the cheapskate tax payers there are never enough school supplies which many teachers also pay for out of their own pocket.

You union haters are basically just jealous.

I am relatively close to 5 teachers and none, I repeat none, of them have to take summer classes to maintain their certification. One of them has actually taken a summer course (maybe 2) but it was completely at his discretion to do so.

Your other point is valid, all of them pull money out of their own pockets for school supplies because the school/parents do not provide enough. I'll gladly pay their expenses (and I think we should regardless) instead of absurdly expensive benefits for life.

 

[ProfJohn]

So, uhh, where are these demands for sacrifice when it comes to the financial elite, boomerang?

Or should the rest of us just bend over and take it in a situation that the people at the top created for their own benefit?

They sacrifice by paying more of their income in taxes than any other group.

Effective tax rate by quintile: (this is ALL taxes, income + SS, Medicare)
http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2009/effective_rates.pdf
4.3%
10.2%
14.3%
17.6%
25.8%

So top 20% of earners in the country see almost twice as much of their income go to the government as people in the middle of earners. Is that not a sacrifice?

 

[ProfJohn]

Take that for whatever it is worth. Anyone know any factual and unbiased studies regarding teacher work hours?

I googled the hell out of it and couldn't find anything definitive. There are government studies, but I couldn't tell if they averaged out hours worked over the entire year.

But from most of the places I went I saw teachers claiming 40-50 hours with a few claiming higher. And of course that is for a 36 week work year compared to most of us working 50 weeks a year.

 

[Darwin333]

She works plenty of times that aren't part of the school calendar, as do many teachers.

Jesus dude, it's really really clear at this point that you have zero clue as to what you're talking about. Why not just admit it?

Pay them hourly.

Problem solved...

I completely agree a person should be paid for the work they do, that seems like a rather easy solution to your argument. I'll even give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to work done at home, its what we pay when they are no longer providing a service that is truly unsustainable. If they wish to contribute enough to make it sustainable then so be it but as it is it simply won't work out.

The part that is really depressing is that these people are teaching our children math yet they don't understand it themselves. I know that you personally are very challenged with basic arithmetic but for fucks sake these are the people teaching math to our kids!!

I really hate to keep getting proven right but we be fucked.

 

[Jhhnn]

They sacrifice by paying more of their income in taxes than any other group.

Effective tax rate by quintile: (this is ALL taxes, income + SS, Medicare)
http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2009/effective_rates.pdf
4.3%
10.2%
14.3%
17.6%
25.8%

So top 20% of earners in the country see almost twice as much of their income go to the government as people in the middle of earners. Is that not a sacrifice?

You're a really sad shill, PJ.

Total taxes are what matters, and by that metric, America's wealthiest pay little more as a % of income than people in the middle-

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

People in the 95-99 % pay higher total taxes as a % of income than those in the top 1%, and it seems likely that those in the top .1% pay even less, the top .01% even less than that.

Sacrifice is for little people, obviously.

 

[Lithium381]

You're a really sad shill, PJ.

Total taxes are what matters, and by that metric, America's wealthiest pay little more as a % of income than people in the middle-

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

People in the 95-99 % pay higher total taxes as a % of income than those in the top 1%, and it seems likely that those in the top .1% pay even less, the top .01% even less than that.

Sacrifice is for little people, obviously.

While i am conservative and typically vote republican... these tax breaks for the rich are ridiculous..... i don't agree that they should be taxed 80% like Obama thinks they should be but stop letting them deduct everything and play games.

 

[ProfJohn]

You're a really sad shill, PJ.

Total taxes are what matters, and by that metric, America's wealthiest pay little more as a % of income than people in the middle-

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

People in the 95-99 % pay higher total taxes as a % of income than those in the top 1%, and it seems likely that those in the top .1% pay even less, the top .01% even less than that.

Sacrifice is for little people, obviously.

Your source looks to be BS.

According to the CBO the Top 1% had effective tax rate of 29.5%

Citizens for Tax Justice guesses that in 2010 that rate dropped to only 22%. 22% would be the lower than any thing since 1979. Thus I doubt the number is accurate.

Let's assume that their state and local rates are right though and use the official government numbers for Federal taxes (from 2007) and re-do our little list.
Total percent of income paid in federal, local and state taxes
Lowest 20% 16.3%
Second 20% 22.6%
Middle 20% 25.5%
Fourth 20% 27.5%
top 10% 37.7%
Top 5% 37.8%
Top 1% 37.4%

So again the people at the top are paying a MUCH greater share of their income to the government.

A person in the middle works hard for their $40,000 and see a quarter of it go to the government. A person near the top works hard for their $400,000 and see over a third of it go to the government. And if you just look at federal taxes the person at the top is seeing twice as much of their income go to the government than the person in the middle.

It seems to me that the person at the top is sacrificing more than the person at the middle or bottom.


Official CBO numbers for 2007. Nothing newer is available yet.
http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/2010/AverageFedTaxRates2007.pdf

 

[fskimospy]

Pay them hourly.

Problem solved...

I completely agree a person should be paid for the work they do, that seems like a rather easy solution to your argument. I'll even give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to work done at home, its what we pay when they are no longer providing a service that is truly unsustainable. If they wish to contribute enough to make it sustainable then so be it but as it is it simply won't work out.

The part that is really depressing is that these people are teaching our children math yet they don't understand it themselves. I know that you personally are very challenged with basic arithmetic but for fucks sake these are the people teaching math to our kids!!

I really hate to keep getting proven right but we be fucked.

Thanks for the incomprehensible post filled with dumb ideas. Unfortunately you work against my point as apparently the teachers of the US have failed you.

 

[Jhhnn]

Your source looks to be BS.

Attack the source, then pull numbers out of your ass to support your original contention.

Brilliant ploy. No credible source supports your contention, obviously.

In making such a clumsy and transparent attempt at deflection, you tacitly admit that total taxes are the real issue, not federal income taxes alone. Lacking any sources in support, you reveal an agenda of lies & distortion.

 

[Jimmah]

Sad you don't value your teachers more, or schools, hell even your kids' education is ignored. Teachers are overworked, underfunded, hated and continuously scape-goated, it's no wonder your National education levels are absolute shit.

 

[charrison]

Sad you don't value your teachers more, or schools, hell even your kids' education is ignored. Teachers are overworked, underfunded, hated and continuously scape-goated, it's no wonder your National education levels are absolute shit.

Education is typically one of the biggest budget items at local and often state levels. I would say education is highly valued. The real question is why so little of that money actually makes it to the classroom.

 

[Darwin333]

Thanks for the incomprehensible post filled with dumb ideas. Unfortunately you work against my point as apparently the teachers of the US have failed you.

Naw, wasn't my English teachers fault, it always bored me so I didn't try very hard at the subject.

My math teachers did a damn good job though. They even taught me this long forgotten theory called "exponents". I would be happy to send you my daughters old 5th grade math text book if you are interested in learning about the subject.

Not a single one of you has explained exactly how the types of benefits most teachers currently receive and what they pay for them is sustainable or how the pension funds can maintain a y/o/y return of 10% forever that is factored into their financial outlooks or even how much more tax payers should be taxed in order to keep the status quo long term.

Just about any reasonable study shows state pensions to be unfunded by trillions of dollars. Exactly where and how do you expect states to come up with that kind of money? Keep in mind you also advocate the Feds significantly increase their tax revenue as well.

Please show us all your vastly superior intelligence by answering the above and including the math with your answer. Thanks in advance.

 

[soundforbjt]

I know four. They don't work one single hour outside of the class room, 8:10 till 3:30. They make 55k a year, have killer benefits, every Federal holiday off, and summers free to do as they please. They also accumulate sick day's.

It ain't a bad deal at all.

Those must be some of the bad teachers they can't fire. My sister taught for 15 years and worked way more than that. And she spent summers in college earning her doctorate in math.

 

[umbrella39]

When my wife was a teacher she absolutely did make 75K a year, and that was with summers off.

But, But, But my WIFE again?!?

Dude, get back in her purse where you belong eunuch.