Unidentified federal law enforcement arresting Portland protesters in unmarked vehicles, for unknown reasons...

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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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126
I'm not just talking about the domestic terrorist to 'militia' groups. I'm talking about the Trump party in general. It's a conglomeration of fringe groups - some are QAnon, some believe that the elections are rigged, and I'm not just talking about this year's but the last election too, Trump convinced many there were millions of illegal votes, you have straight up white supremacist groups and chauvinist groups, then you have the contingent that thinks Covid is a hoax, then the ones that think Obama was a Marxist Muslim and Biden is now a terrorist, BLM is a domestic terrorist organization, caravans upon caravans of illegals are invading us and raping our women, the evangelicals truly believe the apocalypse is upon us and it's fine to discriminate against gays, and on and on.

Add it all up and you have tens of millions of wackadoos. It's a substantial part of his base.

Meanwhile you got a small amount of radical progressives toppling the wrong statues and that's now a big part of the Democratic party. Yeah, ok.
No one would care if it were just statues, but you have a fringe element that has done far more than just topple statues. We’ve had assaults on police, some deadly, not to mention the arson, looting, threats against journalists and other criminal acts that are no better then the militant right wing groups seeking violent confrontations. If you want to open your eyes check out the reporting from Jeremy Lee Quinn, which the NY Times even featured from editorial writer Farah Stockman.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,544
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No one would care if it were just statues, but you have a fringe element that has done far more than just topple statues. We’ve had assaults on police, some deadly, not to mention the arson, looting, threats against journalists and other criminal acts that are no better then the militant right wing groups seeking violent confrontations. If you want to open your eyes check out the reporting from Jeremy Lee Quinn, which the NY Times even featured from editorial writer Farah Stockman.
Crickets when it comes to a right-winger killing police officers.

Yawn.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,271
19,763
136
No one would care if it were just statues, but you have a fringe element that has done far more than just topple statues. We’ve had assaults on police, some deadly, not to mention the arson, looting, threats against journalists and other criminal acts that are no better then the militant right wing groups seeking violent confrontations. If you want to open your eyes check out the reporting from Jeremy Lee Quinn, which the NY Times even featured from editorial writer Farah Stockman.

It's still a very small angry percentage of left of center folks, and some of those are just total opportunists. Latch onto the anonymity of a protest and be a douchebag. If the crazies of the left were anywhere near the numbers of the crazies of the right, entire cities would have smoldering ruins in them, literal war on the streets and not just in small pockets like a 2 block area of Portland, but massive areas. Literal war.

Also I have heard of zero deadly assaults on law enforcement by leftist protestors. But I have heard of multiple officers killed by right wing terrorists, plus a couple others shot by one, plus a plot by others to kill more.

The NY times also has some great reporting on police force excesses during the initial protests as well. You should check that out. Hell they caused a 75 year old guy brain damage and Trumphumpers cheered online. I made the mistake of going through the FB comments of an article posted on the guy from Buffalos health status, and the amount of gleeful Trumphumpers on there was disgusting.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
It's still a very small angry percentage of left of center folks, and some of those are just total opportunists. Latch onto the anonymity of a protest and be a douchebag. If the crazies of the left were anywhere near the numbers of the crazies of the right, entire cities would have smoldering ruins in them, literal war on the streets and not just in small pockets like a 2 block area of Portland, but massive areas. Literal war.

Also I have heard of zero deadly assaults on law enforcement by leftist protestors. But I have heard of multiple officers killed by right wing terrorists, plus a couple others shot by one, plus a plot by others to kill more.

The NY times also has some great reporting on police force excesses during the initial protests as well. You should check that out. Hell they caused a 75 year old guy brain damage and Trumphumpers cheered online. I made the mistake of going through the FB comments of an article posted on the guy from Buffalos health status, and the amount of gleeful Trumphumpers on there was disgusting.
Trump supporters are unquestionably gleeful in their support of violent outcomes, I am not debating that point. But I also see Trumpism as a momentary lapse of societal insanity that will dissipate once he is removed from office...the fringe left, and its capacity for violence and criminal behavior, has been a constant presence across numerous administrations.

Just think about the outcomes of this election.

Biden wins in a landslide, nothing happens.

Biden wins a close or contested election, there will be flashes of right wing violence and terrorism, but I expect law enforcement to snuff it out, as they did in Michigan, and no one will cry fascism if they do so assertively. You may see some police union strikes.

Trump manages to win, cities will burn.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,092
136
Trump supporters are unquestionably gleeful in their support of violent outcomes, I am not debating that point. But I also see Trumpism as a momentary lapse of societal insanity that will dissipate once he is removed from office...the fringe left, and its capacity for violence and criminal behavior, has been a constant presence across numerous administrations.

Just think about the outcomes of this election.

Biden wins in a landslide, nothing happens.

Biden wins a close or contested election, there will be flashes of right wing violence and terrorism, but I expect law enforcement to snuff it out, as they did in Michigan, and no one will cry fascism if they do so assertively. You may see some police union strikes.

Trump manages to win, cities will burn.

If you really think the left is so much more violent than the right, which clearly you do, how do you explain the fact that the vast majority of terroristic acts, and the vast majority of killings, come from the extreme right.

A June 2020 study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) reported that over 25 years of domestic terrorism incidents, the majority of attacks and plots had come from far-right attackers. The trend had accelerated in recent years, with this sector responsible for about 66% of attacks and plots in 2019, and 90% of those in 2020. The next most potentially dangerous group was “religious extremists”, the majority “Salafi jihadists inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaida”, while the number planned by the far left had reduced to a minute fraction since the mid 2000s.


90% this year. That's quite a disparity, don't you think?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
If you really think the left is so much more violent than the right, which clearly you do, how do you explain the fact that the vast majority of terroristic acts, and the vast majority of killings, come from the extreme right.




90% this year. That's quite a disparity, don't you think?
Depends on where you want to start counting numbers. There’s been a rise in right wing violence across the globe over the last 20 years, most people who make the argument you do tend to start counting in the late 90s. The Oklahoma City bombing was obviously right wing, and horrible, but it also accounts for 77% of right wing violence. There were a few left wing terror cells in the 60s and 70s who were fond of bombs, like the ones who blew themselves up in Greenwich village.

Marxist, revolutionary and other left wing terrorist organizations have certainly been more active at times in my lifetime.

The Bugaloo movement and the Proud Boys may be right wing, yet a Bugaloo would kill a Proud Boy to instigate a civil war.

There was a momentary spike of left wing violence in the mid 2000s attributed to attacks on animal research and farming, but animal rights and environmental activists are not the same as anarchists, and destruction of property or intimidation are certainly acts of terrorism.

What I see on the streets are groups of agitators representative of both political extremes, and violence from both have resulted in numerous incidents of assault and a few fatalities.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
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Except of course that these morons seem ever present wherever you find modern American liberalism, and have proven themselves quite capable of violence and destruction, yet any attempts to deal with their reckless lawlessness is met with cries of fascism.

Trump has dangerously enabled and validated the violent fringe of the right, yet I applaud our law enforcement, especially at the federal level, who have stepped in to contain and stop militias from engaging in violence.

Bullshit. You have never once said anything derogatory about right-wing terrorism on this board. At best, you blame the liberals for the existence of right-wing violence, as you do for everything else.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Bullshit. You have never once said anything derogatory about right-wing terrorism on this board. At best, you blame the liberals for the existence of right-wing violence, as you do for everything else.
I’ve condemned in no uncertain terms right wing violence, have acknowledged on numerous occasions that Trump has dangerously enabled them and given them a sense of validation and I’ve spoken out quite strongly against 2A libertarian and open carry types who have attended protests looking to instigate violence, and in the instances where Trumpers have been on the receiving end, I’ve attributed it to people finding the very outcome they sought.

I even said it in the very statement that you quoted.

You are wrong
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,305
136
The fringe of the left is very much part of the progressive movement, which Democrats claim and disown depending on political calculus. Now that this fringe element is competing and winning elections in some blue cities, centrists like Biden will inevitably have to face the Pandora’s box they’ve opened, much as the Tea Party movement hijacked the GOP and set the tone for the rise of Trump.

Does anyone even know what they’re protesting at this point? The drop in public approval for BLM is a direct outcome of their misguided rage.

Democrats like to throw the far right into one big Nazi bucket, but its made up of many fringe groups that have found one another via the internet and have found momentary validation by Trump. But a Boogaloo member wouldn’t hesitate to kill law enforcement if it furthered their cause for revolution, where other groups are pro law enforcement, with a few libertarian 2A militias thrown in for good measure.

Yet more bothsiderism bullshit. By your own admission, the Democrats are running a centrist while the Republicans are running Trump who validates violent right-wing extremists, yet somehow you're still dishonest enough to try to claim they're the same. While at the same time claiming that the left are all in the same bucket but the right are made up of many disparate groups. What a blatantly dishonest piece of shit you've become.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,544
7,688
136
Yet more bothsiderism bullshit. By your owb admission, the Democrats are running a centrist while the Republicans are running Trump who validates violent right-wing extremists, yet somehow you're still dishonest enough to try to claim they're the same. While at the same time claiming that the left are all in the same bucket but the right are made up of many disparate groups. What a blatantly dishonest piece of shit you've become.
Edgy. Yawn. BothSidesDoIt™

Take your pick.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
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I’ve condemned in no uncertain terms right wing violence, have acknowledged on numerous occasions that Trump has dangerously enabled them and given them a sense of validation and I’ve spoken out quite strongly against 2A libertarian and open carry types who have attended protests looking to instigate violence, and in the instances where Trumpers have been on the receiving end, I’ve attributed it to people finding the very outcome they sought.

I even said it in the very statement that you quoted.

You are wrong

Link up a past post where you've condemned right-wing violence without blaming liberals or 'the left' for it.

I'll wait.
 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,498
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The fringe of the left is very much part of the progressive movement, which Democrats claim and disown depending on political calculus. Now that this fringe element is competing and winning elections in some blue cities, centrists like Biden will inevitably have to face the Pandora’s box they’ve opened, much as the Tea Party movement hijacked the GOP and set the tone for the rise of Trump.
Yes, it will be quite terrible. These radical BLM and Antifa people could do a lot of damage, if they get their way. When the smoke clears, there could be police reform, universal health care, free college tuition for certain trades and degree programs, corporations being taxed and regulated properly, Fair working wages and taxing structure. Sounds like a real nightmare.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
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Depends on where you want to start counting numbers. There’s been a rise in right wing violence across the globe over the last 20 years, most people who make the argument you do tend to start counting in the late 90s. The Oklahoma City bombing was obviously right wing, and horrible, but it also accounts for 77% of right wing violence.

"77% of right wing violence"? Are you referring to fatalities? I don't know what that even means, and it requires a source link.

Here's some more information to clarify this:


This is the study cited in the wiki I linked earlier.

As to fatalities:

In comparison, right-wing terrorist attacks caused 335 deaths, left-wing attacks caused 22 deaths, and ethnonationalist terrorists caused 5 deaths.

There were 168 deaths in the Oklahoma City Bombing. So if we really want to be nice here, let's just say we start the year after that, shall we? That leaves 167 deaths caused by right wing extremists since then, versus 22 or less from the left. If my maths are solid, that's a ratio of about 7.5:1.

As to the number of attacks, it looks even worse for the far right I'm afraid. Look over the link, or just recall that this study has concluded that they are responsible for 90% of all the domestic terror attacks this year.

There were a few left wing terror cells in the 60s and 70s who were fond of bombs, like the ones who blew themselves up in Greenwich village.

Marxist, revolutionary and other left wing terrorist organizations have certainly been more active at times in my lifetime.

Yeah see, the problem here is that you were making a comment about the current political climate and current proclivities of each ideological group. Specifically, you made a prediction about what might happen in the immediate future.

Given that is our framework for discussion, it rather seems like bad faith to be going back 40-50 years to make your point. It's like saying the democrats are the racist party because of all the southern democrats who were in the KKK during the Jim Crow era. See the problem?

The Bugaloo movement and the Proud Boys may be right wing, yet a Bugaloo would kill a Proud Boy to instigate a civil war.

So what? You're flailing here against the facts.

There was a momentary spike of left wing violence in the mid 2000s attributed to attacks on animal research and farming, but animal rights and environmental activists are not the same as anarchists, and destruction of property or intimidation are certainly acts of terrorism.

What I see on the streets are groups of agitators representative of both political extremes, and violence from both have resulted in numerous incidents of assault and a few fatalities.

Uh huh, but the far right is more violent than the far left in today's America. It's a fact. This started with you making a comparison of possible future violence which was quite unflattering to the left. That assumption runs contrary to known facts.
 
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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
"77% of right wing violence"? Are you referring to fatalities? I don't know what that even means, and it requires a source link.

Here's some more information to clarify this:


This is the study cited in the wiki I linked earlier.

As to fatalities:



There were 168 deaths in the Oklahoma City Bombing. So if we really want to be nice here, let's just say we start the year after that, shall we? That leaves 167 deaths caused by right wing extremists since then, versus 22 or less from the left. If my maths are solid, that's a ratio of about 7.5:1.
The numbers you reference align with the articles I read, so your ratio seems correct, although I should have been specific and said fatalities.

Yeah see, the problem here is that you were making a comment about the current political climate and current proclivities of each ideological group. Specifically, you made a prediction about what might happen in the immediate future.

Given that is our framework for discussion, it rather seems like bad faith to be going back 40-50 years to make your point. It's like saying the democrats are the racist party because of all the southern democrats who were in the KKK during the Jim Crow era. See the problem?
I don’t see that as a problem because the past is what sets the patterns for the future, and I am not approaching the conversation as if its a team sport.
Uh huh, but the far right is more violent than the far left in today's America. It's a fact. This started with you making a comparison of possible future violence which was quite unflattering to the left. That assumption runs contrary to known facts.
I don’t recall the far right rioting, looting, destroying universities or otherwise violently targeting symbols of the “left” after losing an election. My prediction is shaped by the patterns of behavior I see. The funny thing about predictions is that they can also be wrong.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Yes, it will be quite terrible. These radical BLM and Antifa people could do a lot of damage, if they get their way. When the smoke clears, there could be police reform, universal health care, free college tuition for certain trades and degree programs, corporations being taxed and regulated properly, Fair working wages and taxing structure. Sounds like a real nightmare.
Doubtful. After the smoke clears, we’ll have some arson to repair, insurance claims to pay out and endless debates on what to do with the toppled statues.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Link up a past post where you've condemned right-wing violence without blaming liberals or 'the left' for it.

I'll wait.

Here are two. I omitted the posts where I condemn right wing violence but also make recommendations on ways to address it.

Trump and the Republicans should immediately denounce this in the strongest language possible, and moderate conservatives should use this as a talking point to tone down the irresponsible partisan tribalistic inflammatory rhetoric coming from Trump.
We are clearly failing at fascism if our law enforcement agencies are still actively searching for and stopping dangerous terrorists who have embraced alt-right extremism.

I am glad they caught him. Trump will not condemn him. I doubt he even acknowledges it.