Understanding the World

[cwjerome]

Recently during a discussion this question was asked: "Maybe Newtonian physics, capitalism, western management philosophy, democracy, technology dependency, Christianity, and separation of church and state, prevent us from understanding the rest of the world."

First, I take this to be referring primarily towards Islamic and African (and to a lesser extent Chinese and Hindu), since a lot of nations/cultures generally accept those same beliefs in question.

But a lot of people who demand empathy and like to say things such as "who are we to judge" usually forget that other groups and nations ARE judging... us. And here's the kicker: Our capacity to question things, particularly ourselves, and 'their' lack of ability to challenge their basic assumptions is a net strength in our favor. However, I'm not sure how much value there is in a question challenging the very things that have made our society successful and prosperous.

I do also believe that faith in lieu of science, command economics, corruption, horizontal kinship ties replacing state structures, pre-Enlightenment thinking, lack of a higher civic ethic, and lack of separation of church and state, will always prevent other people from ever progressing.

Even if we were to 'lose' the war in War on Terror and withdraw tomorrow from Iraq and Afghanistan, our society will continue to grow and prosper and the negative effects could be mitigated somewhat (not a plug to abandon the fight). The 'near-eastern' societies would continue to be dysfunctional and be on a glide path to failure.

People like to always throw out the point that we constantly fail to understand "them", but I think a lot of these other societies fail to REALLY understand us for some of the same reasons -and many different reasons- that we fail to understand them. It is hardwired into their culture to not be adaptive or progressive so no matter which tactical victories they fail to achieve or societal hardships they encounter, they will be at a loss of why we are successful and they are not.

 

[sandorski]

You're the one invading them, so it seems more prudent that you understand them more than them understand you.

 

[Blackjack2000]

I find that there is very little to understand. The human condition is, at some levels, pretty universal. They want to be able to feed their children, they want security, they want liberty, etc. etc.

The religious fundamentalism that you are alluding to (I'm assuming "they" refers to fundamentalist Islam) correlates strongly with poverty. If we were serious about reducing that, we would be serious about lifting their populations out of poverty. But that's not what we're serious about, is it?

 

[Moonbeam]

"Recently during a discussion this question was asked: "Maybe Newtonian physics, capitalism, western management philosophy, democracy, technology dependency, Christianity, and separation of church and state, prevent us from understanding the rest of the world."

Well that is not really asking a question but, I would say, more like postulating a theory.

"First, I take this to be referring primarily towards Islamic and African (and to a lesser extent Chinese and Hindu), since a lot of nations/cultures generally accept those same beliefs in question."

We would need to know it the person who proposes this thought thinks these things possibly also make us also blind to similar cultures.

"But a lot of people who demand empathy and like to say things such as "who are we to judge" usually forget that other groups and nations ARE judging... us."

That would be God asking us not to do that, no?

"And here's the kicker: Our capacity to question things, particularly ourselves, and 'their' lack of ability to challenge their basic assumptions is a net strength in our favor."

But this is a kicker only if it is even remotely true. I see little capacity to look at ourselves from where I stand. I see almost universal denial. We do have a plurality of beliefs in the West that make us rather fractured compared, perhaps, to some cultures, but all these factions look to me to be as sure of their own rectitude as anybody else in the world. What we have is Dick questioning Joe but never Dick questioning Dick.

"However, I'm not sure how much value there is in a question challenging the very things that have made our society successful and prosperous."

And there we have the proof.

"I do also believe that faith in lieu of science, command economics, corruption, horizontal kinship ties replacing state structures, pre-Enlightenment thinking, lack of a higher civic ethic, and lack of separation of church and state, will always prevent other people from ever progressing."

What you call progress others see as a prescription for ultimate disaster. Lots of people would choose to farm rather than die in a nuclear war.

"Even if we were to 'lose' the war in War on Terror and withdraw tomorrow from Iraq and Afghanistan, our society will continue to grow and prosper and the negative effects could be mitigated somewhat (not a plug to abandon the fight). The 'near-eastern' societies would continue to be dysfunctional and be on a glide path to failure."

And we gave them quite a nice push, no?

"People like to always throw out the point that we constantly fail to understand "them", but I think a lot of these other societies fail to REALLY understand us for some of the same reasons -and many different reasons- that we fail to understand them. It is hardwired into their culture to not be adaptive or progressive so no matter which tactical victories they fail to achieve or societal hardships they encounter, they will be at a loss of why we are successful and they are not."

In order to understand another you have to have some sympathy and attraction to how they are. It's not easy to do that when they are bombing you.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Interesting.

Beyond the assertation that foreign cultures have as much or more trouble understanding us as we do them, which is most likely true, I find your analysis puzzling.

 

[ericlp]

sh!t, half of the people in this country (USA) is too stupid to understand what's going on. If they did, then bush would have never been voted in for the first time around let alone the second time.

How the hell are you gonna get the world to figure it out? Keep em guessing I guess. Tho, we are the laughing stalk in the science community... Use to have the best now we are among the worst.

 

[daniel49]

only took 5 posts for Bush to make it into this thread:laugh:
Understanding the world is an overwhelming concept, I have trouble just understanding erclip.(JK)

I suppose its a little like any relationship, if your always the needy one wanting to be understood, you don't spend the time trying to understand?

 

[Siddhartha]

I am sure the rest of the world has a good understanding of the US. It sees the US as the imperialist power in the world that will and has done pretty much anything to achieve its political and economic objectives.

 

[jackschmittusa]

How could you fail to mention GWB when asking if the rest of the world understands us? He is the current face of the country to the rest of the world.

Just because it is a sad reality doesn't mean it is not relevant.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

From my own perspective, it seems that people in other countries are just as dumb as the average American. In many/most cases they will be more aware of current events and history, but are just as ignorant (if not moreso) as Americans in seeing the consequences of actions and perspectives other than their own.

Other countries tend to blame the US for everything that goes wrong, regardless of fault (the same as the US blamed the Soviets for everything during the cold war). Sadly, very few of them are willing to admit this.

Oddly, all the Brazilians I know tend to be extremely capable.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
From my own perspective, it seems that people in other countries are just as dumb as the average American. In many/most cases they will be more aware of current events and history, but are just as ignorant (if not moreso) as Americans in seeing the consequences of actions and perspectives other than their own.

Other countries tend to blame the US for everything that goes wrong, regardless of fault (the same as the US blamed the Soviets for everything during the cold war). Sadly, very few of them are willing to admit this.

Oddly, all the Brazilians I know tend to be extremely capable.

You know a lot of Brazilians?

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
From my own perspective, it seems that people in other countries are just as dumb as the average American. In many/most cases they will be more aware of current events and history, but are just as ignorant (if not moreso) as Americans in seeing the consequences of actions and perspectives other than their own.

Other countries tend to blame the US for everything that goes wrong, regardless of fault (the same as the US blamed the Soviets for everything during the cold war). Sadly, very few of them are willing to admit this.

Oddly, all the Brazilians I know tend to be extremely capable.

You know a lot of Brazilians?

I have met half a dozen or so over the last few years. Obviously this is anecdotal but could be part of a larger trend.

 

[Moonbeam]

I thought Bazillions was a lot more that 6.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: daniel49
only took 5 posts for Bush to make it into this thread:laugh:
Understanding the world is an overwhelming concept, I have trouble just understanding erclip.(JK)

I suppose its a little like any relationship, if your always the needy one wanting to be understood, you don't spend the time trying to understand?

So says the man with Clinton in his "sig".

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
From my own perspective, it seems that people in other countries are just as dumb as the average American. ..............

There's some truth in that statement.

When I first moved to Berlin (many years ago), while I was very interested in Germany and their culture.

I was surprised that they didn't seem interested in the USA (as others were in different countries). So I "polled" some on why there weren't asking me any questions etc.

You what the response was? "Oh, we see Miami Vice here on tv, we already know what America is like. I was like wtf?

I guess they view fictional highly stylelized (sp?) Hollywood TV shows as if they were documentaries

Fern

Fern

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Blackjack2000
The religious fundamentalism that you are alluding to (I'm assuming "they" refers to fundamentalist Islam) correlates strongly with poverty. If we were serious about reducing that, we would be serious about lifting their populations out of poverty. But that's not what we're serious about, is it?

It does not strongly correlate; this fact has been brought to light only in recent years.

Do British Muslims really pose a threat to that country and its traditional values?

The homegrown plot to blow up transatlantic flights has intensified fears that the 1.6 million Muslims in Britain are rejecting political tolerance and free speech for a violent, radicalized version of Islam. Do British Muslims really pose a threat to that country and its traditional values?

Some answers are provided by the most comprehensive survey to date of Muslim opinion in Britain. And the results from NOP Research, broadcast by Channel 4-TV on August 7, are startling.

To begin with, 50% say that 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments -- more than twice as many as those who say it was not a conspiracy. Meanwhile, one in four British Muslims believes that last year's 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror.

When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" one in four say it is not their own. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by these laws.

Twenty-eight percent dream of the U.K. becoming a fundamentalist Islamic state, which comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.

The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the journalists who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support arrest and prosecution for those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62% of British Muslims say it should not be.

The predictable sociological explanation is that the extremists are the victims of social exclusion. But the NOP survey found no significant difference in political and religious attitudes by social class. Upper- and middle-class Muslims are as likely to be radical defenders of Islam as lower middle class and poorer ones.

Originally posted by: Fern
You what the response was? "Oh, we see Miami Vice here on tv, we already know what America is like. I was like wtf?

I guess they view fictional highly stylelized (sp?) Hollywood TV shows as if they were documentaries

This actually may be a more significant realization than you think. In my time overseas in Islamic countries, the questions I received about North America were all based around the idea that Hollywood = real life. Gun crime in the streets everywhere. Total dismissal of the atomic family unit. And the one that really sticks in their craw, Western women are all sluts who are more than ready to jump into bed with you if you deliver a good one-liner in their direction.

Not to blame Hollywood for the entire culture clash issue or anything silly like that, but those are very significant themes to why Western culture is considered "decadent and immoral".

 

[1EZduzit]

I've had tourist that were Americans ask me if the Indians still went on the warpath out here in South Dakota. One time I was doing a trade in the For Sale Forum here. I told him I was from South Dakota and asked for a shipping quote. He wanted to know if SD was in the USA!?!


I can't even imagine how third world countries percive us and I would suspect that most on my notions of them are pretty far off the target too.

 

[Kwaipie]

I travel extensively and the overwhelming view of the USA is that they like Americans, can't stand our current government. (based on what they hear in their media) They liked Clinton because they understood what he was going through. They thought it was funny that he was being hauled around by the short curlies for having an affair. In general though, the everyday person from another country is just like an everyday American. It's about what you would think though, in China, the everyday man is basically illiterate, the everyday European watches too much TV, just like the USA. Most places in Africa that aren't in a metropolitan city are as 3rd world as it gets, people starving every day that could give 2 shi+s about American politics.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I've had tourist that were Americans ask me if the Indians still went on the warpath out here in South Dakota. One time I was doing a trade in the For Sale Forum here. I told him I was from South Dakota and asked for a shipping quote. He wanted to know if SD was in the USA!?!


I can't even imagine how third world countries percive us and I would suspect that most on my notions of them are pretty far off the target too.

I assume the other trader was from the USA, and not from a foreign country.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
I am sure the rest of the world has a good understanding of the US. It sees the US as the imperialist power in the world that will and has done pretty much anything to achieve its political and economic objectives.

Just because we try to achieve certain objectives does not mean we are imperialistic. Get off the hate bandwagon.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
I am sure the rest of the world has a good understanding of the US. It sees the US as the imperialist power in the world that will and has done pretty much anything to achieve its political and economic objectives.

Just because we try to achieve certain objectives does not mean we are imperialistic. Get off the hate bandwagon.

It depends on the objectives.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Kwaipie
I travel extensively and the overwhelming .......Most places in Africa that aren't in a metropolitan city are as 3rd world as it gets, people starving every day that could give 2 shi+s about American politics.

maybe thats why they are still 3rd world? Most country if not all that had economic deals with the US has seen their economy's and their people improve... biggest example is china and India...

Obviously, this doesn't apply to terrorist states..