Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

Page 99 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
One would also think that if it could be proven that it was Trayvon Martin calling out for help that the DA would be able to establish a probable cause to arrest Mr Zimmerman on at a minimum manslaughter charges however, that doesn't appear to be the case.

The family(mother) has already said, (after the tapes were "cleaned up") that it was her son pleading on the tape.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
91
Federal government? How is this a federal matter? If anything, I would expect the FL State police to review the investigation. Not saying the feds can't/won't review, but I'd expect the state to investigate it as a state matter.

What 'lies' did the SFD tell about the contents of the 911 tapes? (I'm not arguing, I haven't been keeping up with all the developments).

The Mayor and Police Chief have requested that the USDOJ review the incident, which will apparently be happening.

The Police Chief at one point said the tapes would show that this was not a racially motivated pursuit because Mr. Zimmerman didn't know Mr. Martin's race. They instead showed the opposite. (By the way, I do not presume Mr. Zimmerman is a racist or was acting out of any discriminatory animus - the tapes do show, however, that he knew Mr. Martin was black.)
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
The family(mother) has already said, (after the tapes were "cleaned up") that it was her son pleading on the tape.

I would suspect they would need to perform an analysis on the voice and compare it to Mr Zimmerman's voice patterns to see if it's a match or not. They may have already done this but due to the fact that case is currently under review by the state's attorney's office it's not known.

I suspect there's quite a bit of physical evidence that's been gathered that no one other than those directly involved in case knows about.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
91
The family(mother) has already said, (after the tapes were "cleaned up") that it was her son pleading on the tape.

Yeah, that struck me as well. Obviously it's possible she is hearing what she wants to hear, but I imagine she knows her own son's voice. From what I've seen of the interviews the Martins seem like good people and I find it a little hard to imagine her outright lying about this.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
You're jumping to the unsubstantiated conclusion that Zimmerman initiated physical contact with Martin. Zimmerman probably told the PD that Martin attacked him after Zimmerman asked him what he was doing in that area. The police have to prove that Martin did not attack Zimmerman, which is not easy to do with Martin being dead.
They wouldn't have to prove anything about who threw first if they proceeded with stalking charges. There might be a needle to thread in nailing down the "malicious" part, but I think there is a decent case to be made. If aggravated stalking can be made to stick (which is a higher bar, but still might be worth a shot depending on some things I am not privy to) then felony murder could be available without worrying about the subtleties of self-defense.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
The part I underlined is the real question in my mind. I think that anyone followed by an unmarked car would be unnerved.

I agree, I certainly would be. And then, if the person gets out of the car and says something like "hey, you %@#%!, what the ^%@#% are you doing here!" and starts coming towards you, it's completely reasonable to run and defend yourself as needed.

The problem is, lets say Zimmerman says to the SPD "I asked him a question and he started running. I didn't want to lose sight of him, so I ran after him to keep him in sight until police arrived. I did not touch him. I lost sight of him and kept looking for him in the neighborhood, and a few moments later he surprised me and attacked me. I called for help. I was afraid he was going to kill me, I used my gun in self defense". Without witnesses to the entire sequence of events, it's difficult to see how the DA would prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the story isn't true.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
I agree, I certainly would be. And then, if the person gets out of the car and says something like "hey, you %@#%!, what the ^%@#% are you doing here!" and starts coming towards you, it's completely reasonable to run and defend yourself as needed.

The problem is, lets say Zimmerman says to the SPD "I asked him a question and he started running. I didn't want to lose sight of him, so I ran after him to keep him in sight until police arrived. I did not touch him. I lost sight of him and kept looking for him in the neighborhood, and a few moments later he surprised me and attacked me. I called for help. I was afraid he was going to kill me, I used my gun in self defense". Without witnesses to the entire sequence of events, it's difficult to see how the DA would prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the story isn't true.
That entire story could still fit a stalking charge (possibly aggravated), even if 100% true.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
I agree, I certainly would be. And then, if the person gets out of the car and says something like "hey, you %@#%!, what the ^%@#% are you doing here!" and starts coming towards you, it's completely reasonable to run and defend yourself as needed.

The problem is, lets say Zimmerman says to the SPD "I asked him a question and he started running. I didn't want to lose sight of him, so I ran after him to keep him in sight until police arrived. I did not touch him. I lost sight of him and kept looking for him in the neighborhood, and a few moments later he surprised me and attacked me. I called for help. I was afraid he was going to kill me, I used my gun in self defense". Without witnesses to the entire sequence of events, it's difficult to see how the DA would prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the story isn't true.

I believe a number of forensic items would need to confirm this beyond just Zimmerman's words:
1) voice pattern recognition software comparing screams of help to Zimmerman.
2) No evidence of grass stains on back of Martin (i.e. he was on top the whole time)
3) bullet entry into front of chest at close range and in an upwards fashion
4) Multiple facial injuries on Zimmerman (one punch to a face to break the nose and wrestling on ground does not justify lethal force).

If such evidence is not needed to support Zimmerman's statement in light of the overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence levied against Zimmerman then Florida's judicial system is fundamentally flawed.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I believe a number of forensic items would need to confirm this beyond just Zimmerman's words:
1) voice pattern recognition software comparing screams of help to Zimmerman.
2) No evidence of grass stains on back of Martin (i.e. he was on top the whole time)
3) bullet entry into front of chest at close range and in an upwards fashion
4) Multiple facial injuries on Zimmerman (one punch to a face to break the nose and wrestling on ground does not justify lethal force).

If such evidence is not needed to support Zimmerman's statement in light of the overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence levied against Zimmerman then Florida's judicial system is fundamentally flawed.

Police say physical evidence and witness testimony line up with Zimmerman's account of what happened as well as justified self defense. He has met with police 3 times and is cooperating fully, WITHOUT an attorney present.

If there was even a shred of evidence it wasn't, then they would arrest him. They have no probable cause to charge him with a crime, as he committed no crime which is backed up by evidence.

So - Martain attacked zimmerman and continued beating him when zimmerman was on his back. Are you guys still trying to tell me lethal force isn't justified in that scenario?
 
Last edited:

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
Federal government? How is this a federal matter? If anything, I would expect the FL State police to review the investigation. Not saying the feds can't/won't review, but I'd expect the state to investigate it as a state matter.

What 'lies' did the SFD tell about the contents of the 911 tapes? (I'm not arguing, I haven't been keeping up with all the developments).

The police chief said before the release of the 911 tapes Z didn't know the race of T. We now know that is not true and the family had to sue for the tapes release.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
Police say physical evidence and witness testimony line up with Zimmerman's account of what happened as well as justified self defense. He has met with police 3 times and is cooperating fully, WITHOUT an attorney present.

If there was even a shred of evidence it wasn't, then they would arrest him. They have no probable cause to charge him with a crime, as he committed no crime.

Once lying occurs in an investigation credibility is lost. Police have lied.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
The police chief said before the release of the 911 tapes Z didn't know the race of T. We now know that is not true and the family had to sue for the tapes release.

The point is that when Z called in the 911 call, he didn't say "there's a black guy walking in the neighborhood" rather he said "there's this suspicious guy, I can't quite tell his race, walking around"

The impetus for the call was the suspicious guy, not the race.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
Police say physical evidence and witness testimony line up with Zimmerman's account of what happened. He has met with police 3 times and is cooperating fully, WITHOUT an attorney present.

The police are suspect, it has been reported the officer in charge was narcotics and not homicide, he previously was under fire for not arresting a guy who beat down a homeless black man in a taped video. I have no faith that the proper evidence was collected in this investigation, additionally witnesses report the cops correcting them in terms of who was the one screaming and also it has been reported the cop led Zimmerman with questions rather than letting him dictate his tale.

Without a doubt in the past, Zimmerman has been a great help to this community by many accounts, without a doubt in the past issues have been made racial and political when it was unnecessary. However, the pile of circumstantial evidence in this case points to Zimmerman stepping beyond his role as friendly local anti-crime guy to a Judge Dredd role.

A 140 pound 17 year old visiting his father did not assault and subdue a 250 pound male who has trained to be a police officer during his NBA all-star game half-time trip to the local grocery store. It fucking does not fit any logical analysis, open your thickheaded heavily racist brain and do some independent thought.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
The police are suspect, it has been reported the officer in charge was narcotics and not homicide, he previously was under fire for not arresting a guy who beat down a homeless black man in a taped video. I have no faith that the proper evidence was collected in this investigation, additionally witnesses report the cops correcting them in terms of who was the one screaming and also it has been reported the cop led Zimmerman with questions rather than letting him dictate his tale.

Without a doubt in the past, Zimmerman has been a great help to this community by many accounts, without a doubt in the past issues have been made racial and political when it was unnecessary. However, the pile of circumstantial evidence in this case points to Zimmerman stepping beyond his role as friendly local anti-crime guy to a Judge Dredd role.

A 140 pound 17 year old visiting his father did not assault and subdue a 250 pound male who has trained to be a police officer during his NBA all-star game half-time trip to the local grocery store. It fucking does not fit any logical analysis, open your thickheaded heavily racist brain and do some independent thought.

Obviously he did, evidence supports this (wounds to zimmermans head, being beaten on his back, screaming for help). Stop making stuff up in your head. Think critically.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
The point is that when Z called in the 911 call, he didn't say "there's a black guy walking in the neighborhood" rather he said "there's this suspicious guy, I can't quite tell his race, walking around"

The impetus for the call was the suspicious guy, not the race.

The call actually went "I think he's black". Later in the call Z confirmed he is black.

So far there is nothing else suspicious T was doing.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
The call actually went "I think he's black". Later in the call Z confirmed he is black.

So far there is nothing else suspicious T was doing.

Walking slowly while looking at/in houses everything that would arouse suspicion in a neighborhood that had big spike in crime. Was he casing the places? Likely not, but could his behavior be seen as suspicious? Obviously yes.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
Obviously he did, evidence supports this (wounds to zimmermans head, being beaten on his back, screaming for help). Stop making stuff up in your head. Think critically.

Witnesses report the police forcing them to correct testimony as to who was screaming.

I didn't make anything up, I listed a collection of facts. You have placed your fingers into your ears, bypassed any logical analysis and are screaming support for a potentially fabricated story for which the public has received no supporting facts.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Witnesses report the police forcing them to correct testimony as to who was screaming.

I didn't make anything up, I listed a collection of facts. You have placed your fingers into your ears, bypassed any logical analysis and are screaming support for a potentially fabricated story for which the public has received no supporting facts.

How about the one witness that actually saw it? He states zimmerman on his back, being beaten by martin, zimmerman crying for help.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
Walking slowly while looking at/in houses everything that would arouse suspicion in a neighborhood that had big spike in crime. Was he casing the places? Likely not, but could his behavior be seen as suspicious? Obviously yes.

It would be normal for anyone walking through a development to look at the houses. No evidence he was looking "in" the houses which suggests walking up to the windows(s).
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Walking slowly while looking at/in houses everything that would arouse suspicion in a neighborhood that had big spike in crime. Was he casing the places? Likely not, but could his behavior be seen as suspicious? Obviously yes.

He was in an unfamilar place where all building look the same. It's dusk and he was trying to find his way back to his Dad's house. He's looking at the numbers to get his bearings. He's a guest not a resident.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
It would be normal for anyone walking through a development to look at the houses. No evidence he was looking "in" the houses which suggests walking up to the windows(s).

long-time residents don't look up at housing. Newcomers do. The kid was lost, however.

Zimmerman should have walked up to him and said, "are you lost? can I help you"

instead, the dude creeps up like it's an episode of COPS.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
514
126
Walking slowly while looking at/in houses everything that would arouse suspicion in a neighborhood that had big spike in crime. Was he casing the places? Likely not, but could his behavior be seen as suspicious? Obviously yes.

If he was looking at house he might've been making sure that he was at the right house (his father's girlfriend's house) before he went to it.

That's a bit different than looking inside the house which implies going up the the windows and looking in.

Mr. Zimmerman says "walking slowly looking about" and "looking at all the houses" not that he "walked up the to houses and looked in"

You're unreliable. Making assumptions about the 911 call but not really listening to make sure that what is actually on the tape squares up with what you're saying.

No one should take what you're saying seriously because even though you claim that everyone who is questioning the investigation is part of a lynch mob you just can't see that you're pretty much the most biased person posting in this thread.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
He was in an unfamilar place where all building look the same. It's dusk and he was trying to find his way back to his Dad's house. He's looking at the numbers to get his bearings. He's a guest not a resident.

I understand that. But understand that behavior could cause suspicion, especially given all the crime.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
*warning graphic links to the screams of a young man pleading for his life*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmnqKotpSD0&t=0m3s - first scream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmnqKotpSD0&t=0m23s - scream prior to shot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmnqKotpSD0&t=0m39s - yell directly before shot
To re-quote some previous links to 911 recordings.

Let's take the worst case scenario from these recordings. Martin is severely beating Zimmerman in links 1 & 2. The problem is link 3 indicates a shout much further away from the first 2 screams (notice the difference between screaming and shouting very evident from links 1/2 & 3). This implies the two separated, so let's put our Spidey racist thinking cap on and say Martin was "ghetto-stomping" Zimmerman. Two scenarios result in movement from the original wrestling match:
1) Zimmerman gets away from "ghetto-stomping" and flees, Martin pursues and Zimmerman shoots him. This is highly unlikely because a wrestling match does not magically transport dozens of feet if the aggressor remains aggressive.
2) Martin content with his "ghetto-stomping" gets up and flees. Zimmerman regains his composure, pursues Martin and fires the deadly bullet.

If we are to assume the absolute worst about Martin this would lead into scenario 2 and I would still state Zimmerman did not have the right to use lethal force. I really don't care about the retarded stand your ground laws in the South, I'm just stating the moral right.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
To re-quote some previous links to 911 recordings.

Let's take the worst case scenario from these recordings. Martin is severely beating Zimmerman in links 1 & 2. The problem is link 3 indicates a shout much further away from the first 2 screams (notice the difference between screaming and shouting very evident from links 1/2 & 3). This implies the two separated, so let's put our Spidey racist thinking cap on and say Martin was "ghetto-stomping" Zimmerman. Two scenarios result in movement from the original wrestling match:
1) Zimmerman gets away from "ghetto-stomping" and flees, Martin pursues and Zimmerman shoots him. This is highly unlikely because a wrestling match does not magically transport dozens of feet if the aggressor remains aggressive.
2) Martin content with his "ghetto-stomping" gets up and flees. Zimmerman regains his composure, pursues Martin and fires the deadly bullet.

If we are to assume the absolute worst about Martin this would lead into scenario 2 and I would still state Zimmerman did not have the right to use lethal force. I really don't care about the retarded stand your ground laws in the South, I'm just stating the moral right.

The gun rights people want an immoral world so they can use their beautiful machines.