Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Are we still ignoring the only witness that saw and heard what happened? That martin was on top, beating zimmerman, zimmerman calling for help?

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pZUeOSKv
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
Are we still ignoring the only witness that saw and heard what happened? That martin was on top, beating zimmerman, zimmerman calling for help?

Pick a fight, fear for your life, shoot to kill.

Good shoot.

I fucking love Florida.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,725
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Do we have any evidence that says zimmerman was the aggressor as opposed to this evidence that says Martin is?

it was Zimmerman who was armed, falsely determined guilt and then pursued and chased down Martin.

what more evidence is needed?

Martin was simply defending himself from this nut job.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Given the information that's been released publicly, my inclination is to think that this was not self defense. The problem is, we don't (yet) know the details of what happened in between the first call to 911 and the shooting. We don't know what exactly Zimmerman told police, and whether his story matches up to the timeline/calls/details from other sources.

I have a hard time squaring up the 911 recordings that appear to be Martin pleading for help with the testimony from the witness that has Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him, and Zimmerman pleading for help.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
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Do we have any evidence that says zimmerman was the aggressor as opposed to this evidence that says Martin is?

When he decided to follow the kid in a car and after the kid started running, he decided to get out of the car to pursue him and heard on the 911 call that he was tired of these assholes getting away, yes Zimmerman was the aggressor. And Martin had every right to defend himself from a more than likely intoxicated vigilante.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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Got out of his vehicle. That's all I need to know. Martin acted in self defense.

That's where you (and all the others looking for mob justice) are plain wrong. Getting out of the vehicle does NOT mean the shooting was not self defense. Zimmerman can get out of his vehicle and ask someone what they are doing in the neighborhood. He has no authority to physically detain someone, but he certainly can ask them questions. If he tried to physically detain Martin, and then Martin (fearing for his safety) fought back, then I don't see how self defense can be argued in this case. If Martin initiated a physical confrontation (after Zimmerman asked him questions), then the self defense argument could make sense.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
Are we still ignoring the only witness that saw and heard what happened? That martin was on top, beating zimmerman, zimmerman calling for help?

This is irrelevant for several reasons. At this point Martin had the right to defend himself. That is the point you either choose to ignore or fail to understand. Zimmerman had zero authority to question and pursue anyone. Once he did that, he then becomes the aggressor by nature. Martin has the right to use deadly force against an assailant. Zimmerman chased him, lost him, then found him again several hundred yards away. Martin had no legal obligation to answer Zimmerman or allow himself to be stopped by Zimmerman either. And lastly the biggest one of all, Zimmerman pursued and fought this kid, who had no weapons and COMMITTED NO CRIME.
 
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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Could someone post the Florida law again? I glossed over it many times but want to see it again to determine whether the police were incredibly bias when they spoke to the DA or if Zimmerman's actions determined him to be legally defending himself.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
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That's where you (and all the others looking for mob justice) are plain wrong. Getting out of the vehicle does NOT mean the shooting was not self defense. Zimmerman can get out of his vehicle and ask someone what they are doing in the neighborhood. He has no authority to physically detain someone, but he certainly can ask them questions. If he tried to physically detain Martin, and then Martin (fearing for his safety) fought back, then I don't see how self defense can be argued in this case. If Martin initiated a physical confrontation (after Zimmerman asked him questions), then the self defense argument could make sense.

If I'm walking in a crime invested area, I see someone following me and run b/c I don't want to get jacked. This person then gets out of his car to chase after me, he's an imminent threat and I have the right to defend myself. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman identified himself and even if he did, why should I believe him?
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
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If I'm walking in a crime invested area, I see someone following me and run b/c I don't want to get jacked. This person then gets out of his car to chase after me, he's an imminent threat and I have the right to defend myself. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman identified himself and even if he did, why should I believe him?

He didn't identify himself, he couldn't have, the kid ran away.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
If I'm walking in a crime invested area, I see someone following me and run b/c I don't want to get jacked. This person then gets out of his car to chase after me, he's an imminent threat and I have the right to defend myself. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman identified himself and even if he did, why should I believe him?

Yeah, does that constitute self defense (when you are running and someone is chasing you)? If so, then Zimmerman has no case.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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If I'm walking in a crime invested area, I see someone following me and run b/c I don't want to get jacked. This person then gets out of his car to chase after me, he's an imminent threat and I have the right to defend myself. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman identified himself and even if he did, why should I believe him?

I agree with you 100%, and if that's how it went down, then the self defense argument won't fly. Zimmerman had no authority to detain anyone. He can ask questions all he wants (including getting out of his car), but if he initiated physical contact, he's the aggressor and Martin has every right to defend himself. But..... in order for Zimmerman to be arrested/tried/convicted, there has to be PROOF to show that's what happened. I'm assuming Zimmerman told a different story (I don't know what exactly he told the PD), and they (apparently) don't have enough evidence to PROVE that his story isn't how it happened.

Another thing that is somewhat puzzling. If Zimmerman chased Martin, how could a 250 pound (overweight) guy chase down an athletic 17 year old (a football player) running in fear of his life?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
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I agree with you 100%, and if that's how it went down, then the self defense argument won't fly. Zimmerman had no authority to detain anyone. He can ask questions all he wants (including getting out of his car), but if he initiated physical contact, he's the aggressor and Martin has every right to defend himself. But..... in order for Zimmerman to be arrested/tried/convicted, there has to be PROOF to show that's what happened. I'm assuming Zimmerman told a different story (I don't know what exactly he told the PD), and they (apparently) don't have enough evidence to PROVE that his story isn't how it happened.

Another thing that is somewhat puzzling. If Zimmerman chased Martin, how could a 250 pound (overweight) guy chase down an athletic 17 year old (a football player) running in fear of his life?

The lying by the police about contents of 911 tapes and witness coaching prevents a fair investigation by SPD. Federal government needs to get in here ASAP
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
That interpretation of the tapes doesn't really track with common sense in my opinion, though certainly anything is possible. As spidey is so fond of saying with relish, dead men tell no tales.

One would also think that if it could be proven that it was Trayvon Martin calling out for help that the DA would be able to establish a probable cause to arrest Mr Zimmerman on at a minimum manslaughter charges however, that doesn't appear to be the case.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Zimmerman had zero authority to question and pursue anyone. Once he did that, he then becomes the aggressor by nature.

Sorry, that's wrong. Zimmerman had no authority to detain, but you don't need any authority to ask questions. He was perfectly within his rights to ask questions, and Martin would have been perfectly within his rights to not answer them.

And lastly the biggest one of all, Zimmerman pursued and fought this kid, who had no weapons and COMMITTED NO CRIME.

You're jumping to the unsubstantiated conclusion that Zimmerman initiated physical contact with Martin. Zimmerman probably told the PD that Martin attacked him after Zimmerman asked him what he was doing in that area. The police have to prove that Martin did not attack Zimmerman, which is not easy to do with Martin being dead.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
One would also think that if it could be proven that it was Trayvon Martin calling out for help that the DA would be able to establish a probable cause to arrest Mr Zimmerman on at a minimum manslaughter charges however, that doesn't appear to be the case.

DA gets info from SPD. It has already been shown it is a corrupt investigation.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
The lying by the police about contents of 911 tapes and witness coaching prevents a fair investigation by SPD. Federal government needs to get in here ASAP

Federal government? How is this a federal matter? If anything, I would expect the FL State police to review the investigation. Not saying the feds can't/won't review, but I'd expect the state to investigate it as a state matter.

What 'lies' did the SFD tell about the contents of the 911 tapes? (I'm not arguing, I haven't been keeping up with all the developments).
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
514
126
That's where you (and all the others looking for mob justice) are plain wrong. Getting out of the vehicle does NOT mean the shooting was not self defense. Zimmerman can get out of his vehicle and ask someone what they are doing in the neighborhood. He has no authority to physically detain someone, but he certainly can ask them questions. If he tried to physically detain Martin, and then Martin (fearing for his safety) fought back, then I don't see how self defense can be argued in this case. If Martin initiated a physical confrontation (after Zimmerman asked him questions), then the self defense argument could make sense.

The part I underlined is the real question in my mind. I think that anyone followed by an unmarked car would be unnerved.

If Mr. Zimmerman didn't immediately identify himself and state something like "hey I'm with the neighborhood watch I just want to know why you're in the area." when he and Trayvon Martin crossed paths again it's very easy to see how it spiraled out of control.

The fact that a person inside the police department mentioned that the initial interviewer was a narcotics investigator rather than a homicide detective and may have asked leading questions casts doubt on whether or not we'll get the real picture on who actually instigated the fight. As you said it could be either one of them... unfortunately there's only one witness and he does have reason to say it went down a particular way.