Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
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Well, I still believe that he should be prosecuted. THis is 100% of my fear about increased gun ownership. This is exactly what happens when more people have guns.


Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin, Historical

fear is a bad thing. I still believe our founding fathers...however; our nation now is moving away from that.

The bad part is they think the laws won't apply to them.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
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What do you call a dead kid with candy in his pocket? that's a murder in every country including America and the last time I checked, that's pretty serious crime.

it's your boy Zimmerman who need to come up with evidence to back up his ridiculous claim of self defense against 17 year old with no weapon.

I actually do believe that in a fist fight Zimmerman would likely lose to the kid. No joke. The kid is taller than he is and likely has a longer reach. He also played football, while Zimmerman looks like he couldn't run 100 meters without stopping to take a break.
 
Jan 25, 2011
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So we've established there is no evidence of a crime committed then.

Good. That settles it.

Sincere question. Is there any part of you that wishes Mr. Zimmerman just stayed in his car and let the police do their jobso none of this would have happened. I'm not talking what he was legally required to do. I just mean, in the face of what happened, would you prefer he just stayed out of it after he called so this whole thing would not have happened?

Do you even acknowledge this boys death was completely avoidable?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Before talking about empathy we have to know more evidence.

One of the points I don't understand is why the family was only releasing photos 2 years old or more.

I too agree it was poor choices and poor reactions.

The main problem is people today simply don't talk.

I seriously don't understand how which photos the family decides to release is relevant. Under the circumstances I wouldn't question.

There are numerous questions those on the side of Z have failed to answer.

Why was there witness tampering by the police?
Why did the police lie about Z's knowledge of T's race in the 911 call?
Why did police ask specific questions of Z at start of investegation rather then just ask for his story?

All this smacks of police taking sides in Z's self defense claim
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
What do you call a dead kid with candy in his pocket? that's a murder in every country including America and the last time I checked, that's pretty serious crime.

it's your boy Zimmerman who need to come up with evidence to back up his ridiculous claim of self defense against 17 year old with no weapon.

this is not true at all.

The police example is a good one, but everyone will say Zimmerman wasn't a cop.

Police have killed many kids just pretending to have a gun.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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I seriously don't understand how which photos the family decides to release is relevant. Under the circumstances I wouldn't question.

There are numerous questions those on the side of Z have failed to answer.

Why was there witness tampering by the police?
Why did the police lie about Z's knowledge of T's race in the 911 call?
Why did police ask specific questions of Z at start of investegation rather then just ask for his story?

All this smacks of police taking sides in Z's self defense claim

ok?
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin, Historical

fear is a bad thing. I still believe our founding fathers...however; our nation now is moving away from that.

The bad part is they think the laws won't apply to them.

The constitution is just a set of laws. It is not sacred in any way or form. I liken it to an operating system.

The truth is that in this modern world, with a such a large police presence as well as non-lethal weaponry available, no person truly needs a gun outside of a few high risk occupations (store keeper in inner city, business owner making payroll runs)
 
Jan 25, 2011
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What do you call a dead kid with candy in his pocket? that's a murder in every country including America and the last time I checked, that's pretty serious crime.

it's your boy Zimmerman who need to come up with evidence to back up his ridiculous claim of self defense against 17 year old with no weapon.

Someone having no weapon, being 17 or having a size disadvantage doesn't really mean much opposed to what has been inferred in this thread. Those points aren't really evidence that this poor kid was incapable of inflicting fatal wounds. I've seen many examples in my former career.

Don't get me wrong I think this whole thing stinks, but those points to go to prove anything.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Sincere question. Is there any part of you that wishes Mr. Zimmerman just stayed in his car and let the police do their jobso none of this would have happened. I'm not talking what he was legally required to do. I just mean, in the face of what happened, would you prefer he just stayed out of it after he called so this whole thing would not have happened?

Do you even acknowledge this boys death was completely avoidable?

Do you enen acknowledge his death would have been avoided if he didn't attack Zimmerman?

The whole thing could have been avoided by both parties.

Would you have stayed out of it with a suspicios person with all the recent crime and you volunteered to keep an eye out?

It's sad. It's tragic. But stop crucifying an innocent man with zero evidence.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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So we've established there is no evidence of a crime committed then.

Good. That settles it.

No there was a crime committed here by Zimmerman. Zimmerman according to Fla law can't claim self defense.

This part of Fla self defense law
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html
Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

First off, Trayvon Martin was not commiting a crime. That is a fact. When Zimmerman approached Trayvon Martin the first time, the youth fled. Zimmerman was not in any danger. But Zimmerman than looked for a found the young man again. At that point, Zimmerman is the agressor and Trayvon Martin according to Fla law could use any force necessary to ward off an asssailant, including deadly force.

He fought off Zimmerman which was in his right, his right to not retreat. In response Zimmerman shot and killed the youth. Zimmerman initiated the confrontaiton and he was the agressor. Martin, the victim was well within his rights to fight off an unknown assailant who had chased him and found him a second time. Also according to Fla law, using a gun to kill a person in a fist fight is not lawful.

Trayvon Martin committed no crime and possessed nothing illegal. Zimmerman possessed no legal authority to question or pursue Martin.
 
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Jan 25, 2011
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Do you enen acknowledge his death would have been avoided if he didn't attack Zimmerman?

The whole thing could have been avoided by both parties.

Would you have stayed out of it with a suspicios person with all the recent crime and you volunteered to keep an eye out?

It's sad. It's tragic. But stop crucifying an innocent man with zero evidence.

I don't claim anyone as innocent or guilty, unlike you. I don't assert who initiated the physical conflict, unlike you. If your interest is solely on actual evidence, right now the only actual evidence shows that Zimmerman made the decision to exit his vehicle when Martin ran away, by his own words and Martin had committed no crimes. His statement of these assholes always get away seems to speak to his state of mind. He was convinced this child should not get away. Get away with what exactly?

The rest is why people feel you may be a sociopath.
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
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Someone having no weapon, being 17 or having a size disadvantage doesn't really mean much opposed to what has been inferred in this thread. Those points aren't really evidence that this poor kid was incapable of inflicting fatal wounds. I've seen many examples in my former career.

Don't get me wrong I think this whole thing stinks, but those points to go to prove anything.

wait, what was your former career and how did a 17 year not be able to inflict fatal wounds unarmed?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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No there was a crime committed here by Zimmerman. Zimmerman according to Fla law can't claim self defense.

This part of Fla self defense law
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html


First off, Trayvon Martin was not commiting a crime. That is a fact. When Zimmerman approached Trayvon Martin the first time, the youth fled. Zimmerman was not in any danger. But Zimmerman than looked for a found the young man again. At that point, Zimmerman is the agressor and Trayvon Martin according to Fla law could use any force necessary to ward off an asssailant, including deadly force.

He fought off Zimmerman which was in his right, his right to not retreat. In response Zimmerman shot and killed the youth. Zimmerman initiated the confrontaiton and he was the agressor. Martin, the victim was well within his rights to fight off an unknown assailant who had chased him and found him a second time. Also according to Fla law, using a gun to kill a person in a fist fight is not lawful.

Trayvon Martin committed no crime and possessed nothing illegal. Zimmerman possessed no legal authority to question or pursue Martin.

what would have a cop done? Martin commited no crime, acted like he was pulling a gun out of his pants and then ran.

You are a bit off on the gun law in florida. You can definitely use your gun in a fist fight.

Our country was born on this practice as well.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Someone having no weapon, being 17 or having a size disadvantage doesn't really mean much opposed to what has been inferred in this thread. Those points aren't really evidence that this poor kid was incapable of inflicting fatal wounds. I've seen many examples in my former career.

Don't get me wrong I think this whole thing stinks, but those points to go to prove anything.

Sure there are kids capable of inflicting fatal wounds, but that's for Zimmerman to prove.

Let's say I or anyone get caught with a gun in my hand and in front of me a death kid, dead women, dead old person who in general don't post any serious threat to me. Do I utter the word self defense and I get to go free, or does it only apply to when the dead person is black or minority?
 
Jan 25, 2011
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wait, what was your former career and how did a 17 year not be able to inflict fatal wounds unarmed?

I was a cop for 9 years. My position is that anyone of moderate physical strength can inflict lethal injuries without carrying a weapon or being larger/equal size as their victim.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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??

agree, disagree if so why?

Are you not clear that the family due to their lawsuit is really interested now in painting their son in the past rather than present (even if he was innocent)?

just like kittens and puppies get adopted, but the adults don't.

It's physiological.

If they were trying to prove him innocent they'd have posted up his hoodie and what he wore that night.

I am not saying he wasn't innocent though. I really think though it was the case when two people playing parts shouldn't have met that same night.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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what would have a cop done? Martin commited no crime, acted like he was pulling a gun out of his pants and then ran.

You are a bit off on the gun law in florida. You can definitely use your gun in a fist fight.

Our country was born on this practice as well.

Zimmerman is not a cop. Two he had no gun. Three he had broken no laws. A cop probably would not have questioned Martin and if he did he would have identified himself. Zimmerman is going to prison.

Also Zimmerman was the assailant. He had zero authority to chase and pursue Martin.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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I was a cop for 9 years. My position is that anyone of moderate physical strength can inflict lethal injuries without carrying a weapon or being larger/equal size as their victim.

That may be true. But in this instance, Martin is the one fighting off the assailant. He ran from the guy and the guy found him again. A complete stranger approached him then pursued him. Martin made the right and legal choice to fight off Zimmerman. According to Fla stand your ground law, Martin is the one in legal right, not Zimmerman.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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Zimmerman is not a cop. Two he had no gun. Three he had broken no laws. A cop probably would not have questioned Martin and if he did he would have identified himself. Zimmerman is going to prison.

Also Zimmerman was the assailant. He had zero authority to chase and pursue Martin.

A cop would have shot him...zimmerman is not a cop.

When a guy that doesn't have a gun reaches into their waistband...you don't know.

When they (again not just black people) run, you have no idea.

You are now saying though that neighborhood watches are illegal.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
That may be true. But in this instance, Martin is the one fighting off the assailant. He ran from the guy and the guy found him again. A complete stranger approached him then pursued him. Martin made the right and legal choice to fight off Zimmerman. According to Fla stand your ground law, Martin is the one in legal right, not Zimmerman.

Again, here is the law that shows that Zimmerman can use force including lethal force if he feels he in imminent danger of bodily harm.

[SIZE=-1]776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who
1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless
a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.[/SIZE]
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
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That may be true. But in this instance, Martin is the one fighting off the assailant. He ran from the guy and the guy found him again. A complete stranger approached him then pursued him. Martin made the right and legal choice to fight off Zimmerman. According to Fla stand your ground law, Martin is the one in legal right, not Zimmerman.

the florida law is not back off.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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Also according to Fla law.

Q. What if I see a crime being committed?

A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.


We know for a fact Martin ran away. And we know for a fact he did not commit a crime.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
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I was a cop for 9 years. My position is that anyone of moderate physical strength can inflict lethal injuries without carrying a weapon or being larger/equal size as their victim.

so a 17 year old could never strike a fatal blow to a bigger person barehanded?