Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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When I read the reports concerning the released tapes
1) I find it disturbing the police did not arrest Zimmerman and cite there is not enough reasonable cause when there obviously is enough cause to suspect this is murder and not self defense. I remember a case in texas where a guy shot and killed robbers who were actively robbing his neighbors house, despite the instructions of the 911 operator. The robbers both turned and fled and were shot in the back. He was arrested immediately. This guys shooting is far more flagrant, with more evidence pointing against him, and still no arrest.

2) I find it disturbing that no one came to help the young man as he was crying for help. No one even came outside.

3) I find it disturbing the police witheld such critical information for nearly 2 months now for relatively no reason. I am not sure if this is standard operating procedure, but typically when things are held in darkness there are usually ulterior motives afoot.

Overall this case is a black mark on the police force in that city and heads should roll when its all said and done.

Oh and yes, racism does play a significant role in this story. People who have never experienced racism are the same who claim it doesn't exist in today's day and age.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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How many cases of self defense against a child resulting in death have ever occurred in the history of this country? Compare that to the number of cases of violent crime (with a racial element even) an adult has perpetrated against a child in the history of this country.
 
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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
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This event does smell of racism

Spidey probably has a full on erection at this point - execution of a black person and a corrupt police department going out of their way to cover it up: lying about what's on the tapes, tampering/coercing witness testimony, etc. This is the America he wants.

edit: More context of that Florida town (it's racist as fuck):

Lee’s predecessor, Brian Tooley, was forced from office last year following a scandal involving a lieutenant’s son who was captured on video attacking a homeless black man. Police officers reportedly questioned him but did not arrest him. The officer’s son, Justin Collison, 21, later turned himself in after the video surfaced on YouTube and was charged in the attack.

Collison's family paid an undisclosed sum to the homeless man, Sherman Ware, and Ware asked prosecutors to drop the case. They didn't, and Collison eventually pleaded no contest and received probation, according to the Orlando Sentinel.

But the 2005 killing of a black teenager, Travares McGill, by two white security guards, one the son of a Sanford Police officer, drove city race relations to a modern low, according to some black residents.

Early one summer morning, security guards Patrick Swofford and Bryan Ansley saw McGill dropping off a group of friends in the parking lot of the apartment complex they were hired to guard, according to published reports. They claimed McGill tried to run them down, and both fired, later claiming self-defense. McGill was pronounced dead at the scene. Swofford was a police department volunteer and Ansley is the son of a former veteran of the force.

The pair was arrested and charged, Swofford with manslaughter and Ansley with firing into an occupied vehicle. But a judge later cited lack of evidence and dismissed both cases. According to autopsy reports, McGill suffered fatal gunshot wounds to the back, and it was unclear if the pair was in danger.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
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BTW, police can make arrests when they have probable cause. Probable cause means "a reasonable belief that the person has committed a crime". I cannot accept that on first inspection of this particular case, you cannot have a reasonable belief that a crime was committed. In fact, hearsay, simply hearsay and rumors, is technically enough to suffice as probable cause.


I think the findings in this case are several orders of magnitude beyond simply hearsay and it is a travesty an arrest was not made.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
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Yes.

Bad judgement/decisions on both sides.

And not to defend Zimmerman, but it occurred to me days ago that had Mr. Martin chosen to simply run no way that Zimmerman could have caught him or even kept up. The guy's just way too overweight. Just run home young man.

Why?
 
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rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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So. What evidence do we have that shows this wasn't self defense?

If a 17 year old boy, 100lbs lighter armed with Skittles doesn't convince you Zimmerman's life was never threatened and there was absolutely no need for him to use deadly force, I don't know what other evidence will convinced your closed, biased, racist mind.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Go read the law, unless the police can refute Mr Zimmerman's claim of self defense he has immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action. I seriously doubt the DoJ, FBI, or the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement is going to find any grounds to refute the claim.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Go read the law, unless the police can refute Mr Zimmerman's claim of self defense he has immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action. I seriously doubt the DoJ, FBI, or the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement is going to find any grounds to refute the claim.

Really, without going to the details of the law, here is an excerpt from wiki:

The right of self-defense (according to U.S. law) (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including the use of deadly force.

Again please show me how one's life is threatened by a 17 year old, 100lb lighter armed with Skittles and need defending. And do you practice law or something? Is your statement based on facts or just some armchair general's opinion?

Oh and by the way, Trayvon Martin is dead, it's a fact he wasn't a criminal, and was just minding his business walking down the street back to his own family. The party that made the mistake of killing an innocent kid was Zimmerman, maybe the burden of proof is on him?
 
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kyp275

Member
Jul 21, 2003
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Really, without going to the details of the law, here is an excerpt from wiki:

The right of self-defense (according to U.S. law) (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including the use of deadly force.

mistake 1, you're quoting from wiki

mistake 2, there's no such thing as "U.S. law" in this case(and in most cases actually), criminal statues governing these type of incidents belongs to the state, which can vary wildly on subjects like self-defense.

Not defending Zimmerman's action here, but if you want to discuss the actual applicable law here, getting all emotional isn't the way to go.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
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Go read the law, unless the police can refute Mr Zimmerman's claim of self defense he has immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action. I seriously doubt the DoJ, FBI, or the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement is going to find any grounds to refute the claim.

1) did you hear what was on the released tapes? It is pretty damning.

2) even without the tapes, you can refute his claim based on the fact that he had a gun, was following the young man around, disregarded police instruction and engaged the young man, is larger than the young man, and neighbors report the young man screaming for help. Even more, a single shot was fired and it was highly effective in killing the young man (well placed single shots that kill don't really favor self defense. Even when the police have to kill a guy in self defense, they usually unload numerous rounds in him because is not exactly a situation where they can be calm and calculate the minimum amount of force necessary to put the target down. Well placed single shots that kill imply murder). Certainly its possible that the young man attacked Zimmerman and it truly was self defense, but there is enough evidence here to in favor of Zimmerman lying.
 
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micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
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Really, without going to the details of the law, here is an excerpt from wiki:

The right of self-defense (according to U.S. law) (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in violence for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including the use of deadly force.

Again please show me how one's life is threatened by a 17 year old, 100lb lighter armed with Skittles and need defending. And do you practice law or something? Is your statement based on facts or just some armchair general's opinion?

Oh and by the way, Trayvon Martin is dead, it's a fact he wasn't a criminal, and was just minding his business walking down the street back to his own family. The party that made the mistake of killing an innocent kid was Zimmerman, maybe the burden of proof is on him?

The answer is that we don't know. But the law tilts to favor those who claim self-defense. I do believe that in a fist fight the kid could likely kill Zimmerman, however. He was in shape while Zimmerman looks like an out of shape slob who can't run 100 meters without running out of breath.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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execution of a black person and a corrupt police department going out of their way to cover it up: lying about what's on the tapes, tampering/coercing witness testimony, etc. This is the America he wants.
I feel this is a highly unfair representation of the perspectives Spidey brings to the table.


I dislike intellectual dishonesty and if it weren't for a decade+ of valuable posts that outweigh this crap I would put you on ignore right off. I feel you should retract this: though I do admit that I see where such a gestalt might emanate from, i find this overly hyperbolic.

I am, though, open to a chain of evidence that would make retraction of this argument unnecessary. I am only familiar with a small percentage of spidey's posts.
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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81
The answer is that we don't know. But the law tilts to favor those who claim self-defense. I do believe that in a fist fight the kid could likely kill Zimmerman, however. He was in shape while Zimmerman looks like an out of shape slob who can't run 100 meters without running out of breath.

any adult is capable of killing another adult in a fist fight.

A single lucky punch to even a kidney can be fatal.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
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I am also of the mindset if Zimmerman's intention was to kill a black kid that night, he'd have put more than a single bullet into them.

Most know that usually one shot will not kill someone.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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He didn't know the race of the boy prior to the call. He discovered it during the call.

That is what the media is hashing out. He wasn't suspicious just because the kid was black.

Also the media is spinning he even needed to bring up race on the call. I am calling the police frequently and they always ask "are they white or black?" or "what color are they?" or "what race?"

why are you often calling the cops?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
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why are you often calling the cops?

For one at dog park there are car break in's nearly daily. I am at dog park daily.

Secondly I walk a lot, again with my dog. Seeing things like a front door wide open at 5am is enough for me to call it in for someone to come and look.

Third, I covered 5200 miles driving in roughly a month. If I see a road rage person, someone weaving, a car going off the road, etc...I will call it in.

I am sure you see a lot of things but choose to ignore or that someone else probably 'called'.

One accident I reported was about 20 mins old and no one called anyone. Most victims had no cell phone and no one but me called.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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For one at dog park there are car break in's nearly daily. I am at dog park daily.

Secondly I walk a lot, again with my dog. Seeing things like a front door wide open at 5am is enough for me to call it in for someone to come and look.

Third, I covered 5200 miles driving in roughly a month. If I see a road rage person, someone weaving, a car going off the road, etc...I will call it in.

I am sure you see a lot of things but choose to ignore or that someone else probably 'called'.

One accident I reported was about 20 mins old and no one called anyone. Most victims had no cell phone and no one but me called.

No dude. I call-in stuff that looks problematic all the time: There's this psychological effect that says the more people that watch an incident the fewer will call in the problem. So I do it because I know I'm probably the only guy in the crowd that knows crowds fail to act.

But you seem to be going to an extreme here: road rage? someone getting their dog out the house leaves the door open briefly? Bit much, don't you think? Or is the RR you are talking about waving a gun around while running someone off the road?

(my city just isn't like this)
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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No dude. I call-in stuff that looks problematic all the time: There's this psychological effect that says the more people that watch an incident the fewer will call in the problem. So I do it because I know I'm probably the only guy in the crowd that knows crowds fail to act.

But you seem to be going to an extreme here: road rage? someone getting their dog out the house leaves the door open briefly? Bit much, don't you think? Or is the RR you are talking about waving a gun around while running someone off the road?

(my city just isn't like this)

dude if you called in "stuff" all the time, it wouldn't be a question to you.

A vacant house with the front door wide open and no lights is not the same as someone going and looking for their dog. However, either way there would be no harm in at least having one of our officers here going to check on it. We have our own police force in my town.

In the case of the car accident I reported above I passed it heading to lunch at a well populated restaurant in a strip of well populated restaurants. On the way out I passed the accident again, stopped and asked if everything was ok and they told me it wasn't and the one lady couldn't get out of her car (she didn't think she was hurt though)...she tried to even flag people down and no one freaking stopped. Probably 4000 people drove past that going to or leaving lunch.

Also most things people would call in are not 911 calls, and of course 'everyone' always reports things yet none that you really ask will ever know those police numbers.

Like those that tell the kid handing out coupons for donations always say "we already bough a few" and then you don't see them using any at check out.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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dude if you called in "stuff" all the time, it wouldn't be a question to you.

Also most things people would call in are not 911 calls, and of course 'everyone' always reports things yet none that you really ask will ever know those police numbers.
.
Why would you know the phone number when it comes up in seconds on the i-phone?

In what 1990's world do you live? And My question was directed to 'road rage' calls... could you define this problem at a point that deserves police involvement?

How about those kids that threaten to 'pull' on you... do you call the cops on them too?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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Why would you know the phone number when it comes up in seconds on the i-phone?

In what 1990's world do you live? And My question was directed to 'road rage' calls... could you define this problem at a point that deserves police involvement?

How about those kids that threaten to 'pull' on you... do you call the cops on them too?

Yeah lets make it a crime to call things in. Also we were talking about those that 'regularly' call things in. Are they really so stupid to have to look up a phone number on a browser everytime they have to call it? Is that really helping matters by adding those extra minutes to report a crime. Clearly you are lying.

First, I think you don't understand what road rage is. It's not being mad you are stuck in traffic, but as one on government assistance do you even have a job? We all know you are going to make that $120k teacher's salary 'one day' now with your PhD you will get 'one day'.

I don't think you understand the world at all. Don't you live in some smaller populated state like Mississippi or something that has nothing even remotely related to big city problems like a major city like Miami, New York, Chicago, etc has?