Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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Feb 10, 2000
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This was also after the shot, so he could been when Z was getting up. Based on the calls it was very dark as most didn't realize what had happened until flashlights were at the scene. There's far to many think that are still no available. Forensics and ballistic reports will tell much, bullet entry (possible exit) wounds and trajectory.

True. I wish I could say I had confidence in the local authorities. I think it would be a good idea to have the state troopers or FBI take over this investigation given that it appears to have been mishandled and I gather the Sanford police have been accused of bad practices in the past. No matter what the outcome, I think it will be a miscarriage of justice if this case is investigated in an incompetent fashion and there is never confidence regarding the outcome as a result.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
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Proof of this being the case. It wasn't on the 911 tapes nor has it been released by the police

wittiness's say they heard the shot. look out and he is standing over the child.

ok even if trey was kicking his ass again..and he shot him and pushed him off i still think he murdered the kid.

it does not change the fact he chased the kid down and shot him. all he had ot do is wait for the police.

you should NEVER be able to start a fight and when you get your ass kicked kill the person and claim self defense. Thats just fucked up.

And that's what the law says. wich is why i said odds are he will get away with murdering this kid.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
True. I wish I could say I had confidence in the local authorities. I think it would be a good idea to have the state troopers or FBI take over this investigation given that it appears to have been mishandled and I gather the Sanford police have been accused of bad practices in the past. No matter what the outcome, I think it will be a miscarriage of justice if this case is investigated in an incompetent fashion and there is never confidence regarding the outcome as a result.

As far as I know both the DoJ, Fla Dept of Law Enforcement, and US AG dept will be reviewing the case. I think the Congresswoman, Mayor, and Police Chief has invited them to review the case.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
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True. I wish I could say I had confidence in the local authorities. I think it would be a good idea to have the state troopers or FBI take over this investigation given that it appears to have been mishandled and I gather the Sanford police have been accused of bad practices in the past. No matter what the outcome, I think it will be a miscarriage of justice if this case is investigated in an incompetent fashion and there is never confidence regarding the outcome as a result.

One report said the State police are looking into it. There are calls for the FBI also. so who knows what will happen.

But i agree if only local authorities are the ones looking into it then that is a major miscarriage of justice.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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I will bet your law will change within the next year.

Dunno - Florida has among the most corrupt and incompetent governance in the United States. There will certainly be lobbying by civil rights groups and police officers to change the law (cops almost never like laws like this), but people like the NRA will fight to keep it in place as-is.

As has been discussed before in this thread, I think this law is really dangerous because it creates an incentive for anyone involved in any kind of physical fight to end it by killing his opponent, since a death actually decreases the likelihood of charges being brought (though obviously it increases the risk of a severe sentence if you are convicted).
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
you should NEVER be able to start a fight and when you get your ass kicked kill the person and claim self defense. Thats just fucked up.

And that's what the law says. wich is why i said odds are he will get away with murdering this kid.

I agree, in Texas he would not be able to claim self-defense for provoking or initiating an incident that resulted in a using weapon.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Dunno - Florida has among the most corrupt and incompetent governance in the United States. There will certainly be lobbying by civil rights groups and police officers to change the law (cops almost never like laws like this), but people like the NRA will fight to keep it in place as-is.

As has been discussed before in this thread, I think this law is really dangerous because it creates an incentive for anyone involved in any kind of physical fight to end it by killing his opponent, since a death actually decreases the likelihood of charges being brought (though obviously it increases the risk of a severe sentence if you are convicted).

True, at least Texas has got this part right. Some people think Texas is a gun slinging wild west state.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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As far as I know both the DoJ, Fla Dept of Law Enforcement, and US AG dept will be reviewing the case. I think the Congresswoman, Mayor, and Police Chief has invited them to review the case.

That was a wise decision and probably in the best interests of everybody involved (with the possible exception of George Zimmerman, who could end up being charged if the big-brain investigators find a legal basis for it).
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
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This is what I summize happened that night.

After the phone call Zimmerman chases Trayvon, but Trayvon gets away. But Trayvon who doesn't live there is now lost. Zimmerman mad he got away continues to search for him. Couple minutes goes by and then he spots him and confronts him. Zimmerman now confronts him, likely in a hostile manner because the kid ran away. A fight breaks out and again the kid starts to try and run. Tussling ensues, they separate. Its raining, the kid loses his balance and now he sees the gun.

He starts begging and pleading with Zimmerman coming closer. Zimmerman shoots him in the chest, the kid falls, rolls on to his stomach, then tries to pull himself up, but collaspes dead. Zimmerman then stands over top the kid, probably in shock himself. Which would explain his causal reply to the woman call the police, because he himself was in shock probably.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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One thing that strikes me about Mr. Zimmerman's initial call to the police is that he is relatively calm and is clearly, from his perspective, acting in good faith to protect his community. In retrospect he seems completely misguided and rather overzealous (I don't think there's any reason to believe, in hindsight, that Trayvon Martin was on drugs or casing the neighborhood to commit crimes), but he seems well-meaning. Obviously there is no shortage of cop wannabes out there acting this way. I just wish he hadn't been armed.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
Dunno - Florida has among the most corrupt and incompetent governance in the United States. There will certainly be lobbying by civil rights groups and police officers to change the law (cops almost never like laws like this), but people like the NRA will fight to keep it in place as-is.

As has been discussed before in this thread, I think this law is really dangerous because it creates an incentive for anyone involved in any kind of physical fight to end it by killing his opponent, since a death actually decreases the likelihood of charges being brought (though obviously it increases the risk of a severe sentence if you are convicted).

Yes. Although, to be fair I'm not sure if legislators quite understood how

1) extending castle law to where you stand in public

and

2) giving prosecutorial immunity to someone who shoots in self-defense

would synergies in such a sickening way.

My goodness I despise the NRA.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
One thing that strikes me about Mr. Zimmerman's initial call to the police is that he is relatively calm and is clearly, from his perspective, acting in good faith to protect his community. In retrospect he seems completely misguided and rather overzealous (I don't think there's any reason to believe, in hindsight, that Trayvon Martin was on drugs or casing the neighborhood to commit crimes), but he seems well-meaning. Obviously there is no shortage of cop wannabes out there acting this way. I just wish he hadn't been armed.

This is what the "arm everyone with guns" crowd doesn't quite get. People make mistakes. If you make a mistake with a gun, it becomes irreversibly bad.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
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Yes. Although, to be fair I'm not sure if legislators quite understood how

1) extending castle law to where you stand in public

and

2) giving prosecutorial immunity to someone who shoots in self-defense

would synergies in such a sickening way.

My goodness I despise the NRA.


this is a badly written law. I do agree with castle laws and hold your ground laws. Trouble is they wrote it so that you can start a fight and kill the guy claiming self defense. that is not and never has been the idea of such laws.

A person should be able to defend themselves, there house etc.


As a pro-gun person i hope Z goes to jail for a long time He was looking for someone to shoot and found it.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
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NRA has this kid's blood on their hands.

No. the NRA has nothing to do with this. This is 100% Z'a fault.

sadly i figured some anti-gun nuts would use this just as Spidey and akly are using it for pro-gun (and anti black) stance.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
No. the NRA has nothing to do with this. This is 100% Z'a fault.

sadly i figured some anti-gun nuts would use this just as Spidey and akly are using it for pro-gun (and anti black) stance.

The NRA is a big reason why Zimmerman has not been arrested, since they likely lobbied for and even wrote the laws extending castle doctrine and granting prosecutorial immunity to people who claim self-defense.

Yes, I do blame the NRA for Zimmerman not being arrested, and for the general direction in which they have influenced gun legislation in this country.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
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This is what I summize happened that night.

After the phone call Zimmerman chases Trayvon, but Trayvon gets away. But Trayvon who doesn't live there is now lost. Zimmerman mad he got away continues to search for him. Couple minutes goes by and then he spots him and confronts him. Zimmerman now confronts him, likely in a hostile manner because the kid ran away. A fight breaks out and again the kid starts to try and run. Tussling ensues, they separate. Its raining, the kid loses his balance and now he sees the gun.

He starts begging and pleading with Zimmerman coming closer. Zimmerman shoots him in the chest, the kid falls, rolls on to his stomach, then tries to pull himself up, but collaspes dead. Zimmerman then stands over top the kid, probably in shock himself. Which would explain his causal reply to the woman call the police, because he himself was in shock probably.

There were two shots and there was crying for help before the first shot and before the second shot.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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No. the NRA has nothing to do with this. This is 100% Z'a fault.

sadly i figured some anti-gun nuts would use this just as Spidey and akly are using it for pro-gun (and anti black) stance.

They worked to pass laws that let Z know he can kill with immunity by just claiming self defense. They also blame gun control advocates for people dying because they don't have a gun to defend themselves, so same level of responsibility should apply to them.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
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The NRA is a big reason why Zimmerman has not been arrested, since they likely lobbied for and even wrote the laws extending castle doctrine and granting prosecutorial immunity to people who claim self-defense.

Yes, I do blame the NRA for Zimmerman not being arrested, and for the general direction in which they have influenced gun legislation in this country.

the castle doctin is good. Texas has it right.

i wish EVERY state it it. saying that they should have in it (like Texas does) that you can't provoke a fight and use self defense.

the NRA is right on it. Z though was a over zealous wanna be cop looking to shoot someone.

Wich is NOT what the NRA or castle laws were designed for.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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No. the NRA has nothing to do with this. This is 100% Z'a fault.

sadly i figured some anti-gun nuts would use this just as Spidey and akly are using it for pro-gun (and anti black) stance.

I dunno.

I am a gun owner but am ambivalent about the less restrictive concealed-carry laws that have become de rigeur in recent years, and this case is a good illustration of the reason why. Zimmerman seems like a well-meaning but paranoid guy. He was, in my view, overzealous, but seems to have been sincerely seeking to protect his community. He was obviously told by the police dispatcher that he didn't need to personally pursue Trayvon Martin, but he chose to. I can't help but think that if he hadn't been armed, he would have left this to the police, since it appears he is hardly a master of hand-to-hand combat. If he had just stayed in his car, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.

In general I have no problem with law-abiding people having guns, but this case illustrates what can flow from that - a relatively innocuous situation can turn deadly.