Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81

Unless there is some evidence being kept, I can't for the life of me understand how this guy is not in jail. He chased the kid, then stalked the kid, then after a fight, shot the kid dead. This is so disturbing its really scary. Its sounds like he damn near just murdered the kid in cold blood and then claimed some flimsy self defense stuff. This is beyond crazy. And now that we hear the tapes which back what the woman said, how is he not charged with a crime here is just incredible.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
I hope Zimmerman does not change his number. We also know where he lives now.

Didn't bother trying it sure it was disconnected.

BTW - one of the calls said they were fighting on his back porch. That could even explain the wounds on the back of Z's head hitting it on brick/cement. Still doesn't excuse his actions.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126

Wow, that's the first I have heard this. Could this Z have been any more intent on trying to paint this kid as a drugged out black kid up to no good, casing and looking at houses, going for his waist band, and now he's running away, are you following him, you don't need to do that sir, vigilante, sorry spidey, he's going away for a long time and somebody getting paid...

End of Z.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Where are active posters? Keyboards misplaced? Or busy relocating to Sanford, Florida? Seems there is an opening for self appointed armed neighborhood watch murderers. Free to kill at will with impunity.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
136
The Martin family has work to do after putting their son to rest.

Persue the prosecution of Z

Sue the piss out of Z, the HOA and the Sanford PD

Work with members of the Fla legislature (the one who aren't gun nuts) and persue a complete rewrite of the "self-defense" laws.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
I start tearing up listening to those calls. What a senseless killing.

I feel so sad for the family, having to hear their child die. All he wanted was some candy and ran from someone who thought he was above the law.

The family had to sue to get the 911 calls released. And now we know that the police were lying:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html

In an interview this week with the Miami Herald, Police Chief Bill Lee said the 911 calls would prove the incident was not a case of racial profiling, because when asked whether the suspect was white or black, Zimmerman did not know. However the recording clearly shows that when asked, Zimmerman said, “He looks black.” And then a few moments later, “He’s a black male.”
 
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kyp275

Member
Jul 21, 2003
75
0
0
As a CPL holder and current military, and from info that's been made publicly available, I have to say that Mr. Zimmerman is at the very least a f-ing ret**ded mall ninja who's not qualified to be a watch for anything other than his own house, much less the neighborhood. People like him only gives the anti-gun crown more ammo to use against the rest of us who are actually responsible gun owners.

As for whether he'll be held criminally responsible, that depends on the specifics of the investigation and FL law, but Zimmerman broke quite a few commonly accepted principles:

1. Don't be the one who start the incident - See someone suspicious? good. Call 911? great. Chase after the guy and start a confrontation? hell no.

2. Did I mention don't chase after the guy?

3. Always try to de-escalate the situation, not escalate it - As a civilian, that weapon you're carrying is a last resort to prevent death and serious bodily harm to yourself and others, it's not there to make you feel all tough and go out and act stupid.


Of course, mall ninjas who thinks more highly of themselves than they actually are don't usually don't think that far ahead, and then stuff like this happens. At least he'll never get to be a LEO, there are enough competition for the few dept. that are actually hiring for any to take someone with his kind of baggage.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
18,684
146
As a CPL holder and current military, and from info that's been made publicly available, I have to say that Mr. Zimmerman is at the very least a f-ing ret**ded mall ninja who's not qualified to be a watch for anything other than his own house, much less the neighborhood. People like him only gives the anti-gun crown more ammo to use against the rest of us who are actually responsible gun owners.

As for whether he'll be held criminally responsible, that depends on the specifics of the investigation and FL law, but Zimmerman broke quite a few commonly accepted principles:

1. Don't be the one who start the incident - See someone suspicious? good. Call 911? great. Chase after the guy and start a confrontation? hell no.

2. Did I mention don't chase after the guy?

3. Always try to de-escalate the situation, not escalate it - As a civilian, that weapon you're carrying is a last resort to prevent death and serious bodily harm to yourself and others, it's not there to make you feel all tough and go out and act stupid.


Of course, mall ninjas who thinks more highly of themselves than they actually are don't usually don't think that far ahead, and then stuff like this happens. At least he'll never get to be a LEO, there are enough competition for the few dept. that are actually hiring for any to take someone with his kind of baggage.

This is the stance I would expect sensible gun owners and advocates to take.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
18,684
146
I don't think we'll know until the 911 tapes come out and the case has been reviewed by 3rd parties to ensure the investigation is thorough/most importantly proper (no signs of bias), and pertinent data released to the public. Even then this case will always be based on circumstantial evidence and will be disputed for years to come.

I also think Castle Doctrine laws and "Stand your ground" provisions will be scrutinized over the next few years as well.

You will never hear me say this was a "Good Shoot" as it or any other shooting should never been looked upon in the manner. This event is tragic that resulted in a young man that hadn't had a chance to fulfill his dreams being dead.

I will continue to stand by gun ownership and the ability of a person to defend themselves/family/property. Even though I have a CCW license I don't carry unless I'm carrying a large sum of money going to and from auctions/the bank. I keep my guns locked up in a safe in my garage and the combination is in a lock box at the bank (no one other than me knows it)

I agree.

bolded: 100% agree. I am in no way anti-gun. I'm anti vigilante.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Work with members of the Fla legislature (the one who aren't gun nuts) and persue a complete rewrite of the "self-defense" laws.

Why is this part needed? If Zimmerman's case is declared not self-defense the laws were fine.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
As a CPL holder and current military, and from info that's been made publicly available, I have to say that Mr. Zimmerman is at the very least a f-ing ret**ded mall ninja who's not qualified to be a watch for anything other than his own house, much less the neighborhood. People like him only gives the anti-gun crown more ammo to use against the rest of us who are actually responsible gun owners.

As for whether he'll be held criminally responsible, that depends on the specifics of the investigation and FL law, but Zimmerman broke quite a few commonly accepted principles:

1. Don't be the one who start the incident - See someone suspicious? good. Call 911? great. Chase after the guy and start a confrontation? hell no.

2. Did I mention don't chase after the guy?

3. Always try to de-escalate the situation, not escalate it - As a civilian, that weapon you're carrying is a last resort to prevent death and serious bodily harm to yourself and others, it's not there to make you feel all tough and go out and act stupid.


Of course, mall ninjas who thinks more highly of themselves than they actually are don't usually don't think that far ahead, and then stuff like this happens. At least he'll never get to be a LEO, there are enough competition for the few dept. that are actually hiring for any to take someone with his kind of baggage.

That's just it. I don't think anyone would have any problem with people owning gun for protecting themselves, their family and property if everyone does it responsibly. But people like Zimmerman, and his apologist in this forum, think their rights trumps others and they can use gun in situation that put other people, possibly my family, other American citizen's family in danger just walking down the street minding our own business.

If gun owners can't take more responsibility and have more sense, other American will have no choice but to put more restriction, more law for gun ownership, so everyone's right is also protected.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
As a CPL holder and current military, and from info that's been made publicly available, I have to say that Mr. Zimmerman is at the very least a f-ing ret**ded mall ninja who's not qualified to be a watch for anything other than his own house, much less the neighborhood. People like him only gives the anti-gun crown more ammo to use against the rest of us who are actually responsible gun owners.

As for whether he'll be held criminally responsible, that depends on the specifics of the investigation and FL law, but Zimmerman broke quite a few commonly accepted principles:

1. Don't be the one who start the incident - See someone suspicious? good. Call 911? great. Chase after the guy and start a confrontation? hell no.

2. Did I mention don't chase after the guy?

3. Always try to de-escalate the situation, not escalate it - As a civilian, that weapon you're carrying is a last resort to prevent death and serious bodily harm to yourself and others, it's not there to make you feel all tough and go out and act stupid.


Of course, mall ninjas who thinks more highly of themselves than they actually are don't usually don't think that far ahead, and then stuff like this happens. At least he'll never get to be a LEO, there are enough competition for the few dept. that are actually hiring for any to take someone with his kind of baggage.

problem was others have gotten away in the past.

I'd have followed after the kid if he ran. However, Zimmerman should have identified himself to the kid as soon as he saw him.

I don't have any doubt the kid pretended to go for a 'gun' in his waistband. That's the move all the little kids here do when they know you see them doing shit.

We still need more information, esp what happened between Martin running and then getting shot.

The whole situation sucks.

There is no need to play willy-nilly if you are on watch..."Excuse me son, I am part of the [neighborhood watch or simply I LIVE HERE]...what's going on tonight? You ok, it's raining and you appear confused...do you live here?"

That's all it would have taken...now if the kid bolts he is probably hiding something. If the kid just gives you a hard time and finally mentions he is going to a friends, parent, etc's house then you may still want to get the police or not.

I don't agree with people being totally passive, however; they shouldn't be going around shooting people either out of fear.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81

if a court of law determines it was a fair shooting then the laws did there job.

We still don't know the whole story, but we do know the media has steered this story to be about a guy with a criminal past and a little boy. The 911 calls they released were probably picked for that affect.

It's selling a lot of papers in Florida and ads on the news.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Where are active posters? Keyboards misplaced? Or busy relocating to Sanford, Florida? Seems there is an opening for self appointed armed neighborhood watch murderers. Free to kill at will with impunity.

Florida is on the east coast, it was a Friday night; I am sure most are enjoying other things or sleeping at midnight.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
18,684
146
if a court of law determines it was a fair shooting then the laws did there job.

We still don't know the whole story, but we do know the media has steered this story to be about a guy with a criminal past and a little boy. The 911 calls they released were probably picked for that affect.

It's selling a lot of papers in Florida and ads on the news.

If....

Lets say he acted within his rights based on the evidence, then HomerJ has a problem with the laws.

You're right, we still don't have the whole story. I, for one, am very happy we even have a public media. Imagine what the Police would get away with if there wasn't? Or if there were no citizens willing to stand up to them?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
LoL, are you serious?

yeah...very serious. Come to Florida, go up to a group of kids causing trouble and just observe. At least one of the dumbasses is going to pretend he is packing.

I am not saying that is an excuse to shoot someone, but it's a trend down here.

I have no idea what Martin was actually wearing. A hoodie can be just a sweatshirt with a hood and your entire face is exposed.

The style that is a problem is those that go down to their (I say their not as 'blacks' but as kids as a group here, and not ALL kids just a large group) mid thigh, hang at least 6" down around their faces and conceal their hands.

They usually wear slider pants and have one hand holding their pants up and the other stuffed in a pocket. They just sort of strut and look around a lot as if they are casing every car, house, item they see.

For the most part it's kids being 'kids', but playing a stupid game. For a few they are known criminals. Some of those I have called on have 'rap sheets they could make a book with' according to one cop. The problem is no one wants to make the penalties serious on 'children' so they end up back on the street 9 times out of 10 and get a few days of community service or some weekends at a juvie hall.

We have adults enlisting 12 and 13 year old shooters down here, they have them shoot to kill even if the victim cooperates.

To those above that only carry when carrying large amounts of money...that is pretty stupid. You either need your gun or not. A crook doesn't know if you have just pocket lint or a $25k roll in your pocket.

However, chances are if you have nothing to give them; they will think you are lying and beat your ass/shoot you.

I don't carry my Fox 5.3 everywhere...but anywhere I could be in danger it's with me. I am not quite ready to move to a firearm, but I am getting closer and closer each day.

I have had a few close calls where the spray has been enough and I was able to get some distance and make a phone call to the police. I am usually on foot in the middle of nowhere during really early morning hours or really late after hours...usually in the last to leave a job site and often in an area I am unfamiliar with.

Recently I ended up in Albany, Georgia. I had no idea it was one of the murder capitals of the country. I walk into a gas station and the whole place is more fortified than a bank. They have to scan your items through the glass...there wasn't even a drawer for them to slide back and forth and just a thin enough slot for a credit card or cash.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Because they always get away? Nuts....

We had four burglaries on my block within a three month period. They took an estimated 3-4 hours to complete and probably involved multiple trips. All were done either ~9-noonish or 1-5ish. Broad daylight. My house was one of them.

Only one of those crimes were solved, that crime actually had the crook laughing at the video cameras with no attempt to conceal his identity. The problem was he stole two family heirlooms that were passed down for something like 300 years. The lady that owned them went nuts and basically drove in a big circle to every pawn shop/jewelry store in our area basically 24/7 looking for the guy or her jewelry. She ran into the guy at a pawn shop about 15 mins from here, called the police and they were able to catch him. They only recovered one of the pieces last I heard and she never recovered from the loss.

Luckily for her she wasn't home though, while the guy hadn't killed anyone they were able to connect him to over 15 strong armed robberies in the area where he mashed the victims with a pistol and/or a small baton he carried. Over half of them the police didn't know about until the victims came forward after hearing he was caught and linked to other similar crimes that happened to them.

I keep my eyes and ears open all the time now where ever I am at and I have been able to stop a few crimes by doing so. I try to avoid getting involved face to face, but if I am not sure what's going on I am going to at least try to ask rather than cause someone trouble...but that has backfired a few times as I have mentioned.

The real thing that pisses me off is after good calls where the police came and verified those asshats were doing something bad, there are always people in the crowd chastising me and/or the others involved from not minding our own business and 'getting' someone arrested. The cops told me one person witnessed a burglary here and did nothing, even though she watched it happen...however the kicker was she went on record, on a police statement with "I felt they deserved to be robbed because they were buying too much nice stuff" basically....like WTF?!

In the end there is no winner in the Martin/Zimmerman case. Nothing changes one person is dead...all we can hope for is the kid was either definitely a threat that needed to be at least shot (although you shoot to kill, as long as they are incapacitated the gun has done it's job) and if not Zimmerman is brought to justice.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
If....

Lets say he acted within his rights based on the evidence, then HomerJ has a problem with the laws.

You're right, we still don't have the whole story. I, for one, am very happy we even have a public media. Imagine what the Police would get away with if there wasn't? Or if there were no citizens willing to stand up to them?

The media is a double-edged sword. The media didn't help the family get the 911 tapes though, their lawyer did.

As much as one believes the media keeps the police in check, that is also why the constitution allows it's citizens to bear arms.

Of course people say "the police/military will never turn on it's people" in one breath, and then believe they conspire to place false guilt or innocence in another.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Based on the information I have now, I don't believe that this is a case of self-defense. I believe Trayvon was well within his rights to fight off Mr Zimmerman.

However, it appears that the way the law is written, Zimmerman will get off. I think they need to revise or remove section 2.

[SIZE=-1]776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who
1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless
a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

[/SIZE]