Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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We've been over this time and time again.

Your hypothetical the white girl would have no duty to retreat against FORCE or aggression via FORCE, a forcible felony where she is in a place she is lawfully allowed to be.

The moment she turns aggressive in behavior and physical contact provides the other guy use of self defense provided all the other aspects or reasonable fear for life exist.

Learn the law, read the law, understand the law in most states.

So if a large man is following you at night, and you aren't armed, you wait for him to attack and possibly kill you? Or do you do whatever it takes to get away?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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The real problem is that we/you/I have no idea how Zimmerman approached the kid. The "attack" on Zimmerman could have been legitimate self-defense, or it could have been unprovoked. Giving people condescending lectures about the law is pointless when all the facts aren't known.

I think the broader point though is that Zimmerman initiated the conflict by following and then approaching the kid who, as far as reports indicate, wasn't doing anything wrong. Legally Zimmerman MAY be in the clear depending on who was aggressive first, but morally I think he bears some responsibility for what happened. Everyone involved would have been better off if he'd just followed the 911 operator's suggestion.

You are starting off with your own perceived imagination that zimmerman approached the kid in the first place. Evidence and statements by witnesses say that did not happen, and secondly there is no crime by approaching somebody or talking to them. Right now we have trey approaching zimmerman with "what's your problem?" and then attacking him and at some point zimmerman on his back being attacked.

And just stop it with the "well he should have followed 911". That has ZERO bearing or relevance. There is a whole lotta woulda-coulda-shoulda to prevent this tragedy, but one thing that is the root cause of this - the attack by Trey on zimmerman. If trey didn't attack, this would not be the outcome.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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So if a large man is following you at night, and you aren't armed, you wait for him to attack and possibly kill you? Or do you do whatever it takes to get away?

I would do whatever it took to get away and likely call 911. I've explained how the law works in most of our states.

I assume you have a 911 call by Trey of a large man following him and being aggressive?
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
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You are starting off with your own perceived imagination that zimmerman approached the kid in the first place. Evidence and statements by witnesses say that did not happen, and secondly there is no crime by approaching somebody or talking to them. Right now we have trey approaching zimmerman with "what's your problem?" and then attacking him and at some point zimmerman on his back being attacked.

And just stop it with the "well he should have followed 911". That has ZERO bearing or relevance. There is a whole lotta woulda-coulda-shoulda to prevent this tragedy, but one thing that is the root cause of this - the attack by Trey on zimmerman. If trey didn't attack, this would not be the outcome.

Let me just shut you down right now. Zimmerman admitted to the police he chased the kid through of the several of the neighbors yards. He left his vehicle to confront the kid. So please stop with we don't know who confronted who.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
I would do whatever it took to get away and likely call 911. I've explained how the law works in most of our states.

I assume you have a 911 call by Trey of a large man following him and being aggressive?

You don't think you have the right to self defense? Does the right only take effect once he's already hitting/shooting at you?
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
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You are starting off with your own perceived imagination that zimmerman approached the kid in the first place.

Now you are saying that the kid approached Zimmerman, even though he had absolutely no reason to. More likely Zimmerman couldn't handle backtalk from a black kid, and decided to teach him a lesson.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Let me just shut you down right now. Zimmerman admitted to the police he chased the kid through of the several of the neighbors yards. He left his vehicle to confront the kid. So please stop with we don't know who confronted who.

Got link or proof of that?

Rules state you must have proof of your false statements.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Let me just shut you down right now. Zimmerman admitted to the police he chased the kid through of the several of the neighbors yards. He left his vehicle to confront the kid. So please stop with we don't know who confronted who.

Link to this info. It contradicts what has been released by Police investigators.
 

micrometers

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2010
3,473
0
0
I don't understand why you people are still arguing with the dude. I put him on ignore like 30 pages ago. I've actually put a lot of people on ignore thanks to this thread.

So are the 911 tapes out? They said this afternoon, right?

Also, the neighborhood is actually very racially diverse, so I do discount the race part of it.

The concealed carry part, however, is utterly outrageous. And the behavior of the police department, as well as the "stand your ground" law is terrible.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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You don't think you have the right to self defense? Does the right only take effect once he's already hitting/shooting at you?

I have a right to self defense against force. Following isnt forcible felony.

The law of most states has been clearly explained in this thread. Stop playing stupid.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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I don't understand why you people are still arguing with the dude. I put him on ignore like 30 pages ago. I've actually put a lot of people on ignore thanks to this thread.

So are the 911 tapes out? They said this afternoon, right?

Also, the neighborhood is actually very racially diverse, so I do discount the race part of it.

The concealed carry part, however, is utterly outrageous. And the behavior of the police department, as well as the "stand your ground" law is terrible.

You had better check the state laws of plenty of states before you decide to attack somebody. It could save your life.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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the guy had nearly 80 calls to the police in a 6 month span or so.

I think he probably needs to be checked for mental health as well. Unless a significant portion of these were calls of actual arrests and not his suspicion, it really sounds like he's a paranoid schizophrenic with a gun.

I probably doubled that. Most people see things today and don't do anything.

I walk my dog way off hours. I have reported and witnessed someone being beaten up and ended up with a freaking knife in his back no one realized, many car break ins, many domestic disputes (one that the guy told me he'd kill me if I called the police, I still did; he tried to jump in his car and get away fast and then ended up with his wheels in the air on a wall across the street), prowlers, water mains breaking, lights out, etc.

I have made a fucking lot of calls all for issues. I don't usually call when I first see them either (except the crimes above).

So many of you are allowing this to just happen from everyone knowing everyone is too scared to report things.

No one is going to be able to 'trace you' (the most common reason why people don't report things). You may get slapped or hit at the most.

Yeah, I am sure if you reported and messed up some billion dollar arms trade, you'd end up dead. Chances are for almost all of us, we wouldn't.

All these simple and petty crimes you see but ignore, they will never kill you.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Got link or proof of that?

Rules state you must have proof of your false statements.

What rules? You have made countless false, speculative statements in this very thread (unless you still maintain that Mr. Zimmerman was the victim of a "ghetto stomp," the method "preferred by African Americans" to kill Whitey). Why are you so butthurt that someone else might reach different conclusions?

You should stop referring to "Trey" as a diminutive for Mr. Martin. It's disrespectful. His name was Trayvon and you are no friend of his (assuming that's even what his friends and loved ones call him).
 
Feb 10, 2000
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I have a right to self defense against force. Following isnt forcible felony.

The law of most states has been clearly explained in this thread. Stop playing stupid.

Florida's idiotic "stand your ground" law is by no means "the law of most states." Most states adopt the English common-law principle that you have a duty to retreat before using self defense. Stop trying to play lawyer.
 

etrigan420

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2007
1,723
1
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this thread is becoming 'those that just want to disagree with Spidey'

No.

This thread is becoming:

Spidey talking out of his ass, and people smacking him around like a red-headed step child. Like damn near every other Spidey thread.

A scenario you should be all too familiar with...
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
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this thread is becoming 'those that just want to disagree with Spidey'

That's because he is offering himself up as a) the most opinionated person here; b) an expert on the killing moves "preferred by African Americans"; c) a lawyer, despite not even being qualified to play one on TV; d) an expert on facts he has no knowledge of; and e) the most vocal advocate for the "right" to chase down an unassuming teenager, instigate a losing physical conflict with him, then kill him with impunity.

I gather you are used to acting like a jackass on these forums, then being flamed - that seems to be your sad, chosen lot in life - but that doesn't mean that is how these forums are meant to operate.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Florida's idiotic "stand your ground" law is by no means "the law of most states." Most states adopt the English common-law principle that you have a duty to retreat before using self defense. Stop trying to play lawyer.

And how many states is that counselor?

You somehow think floridas law is unusual? It mirrors my state any many/most others.

Seems you are giving legal advice, as a lawyer, on very outdated information or knowledge of state law. Careful.
 
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Feb 10, 2000
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And how many states is that counselor?

You somehow think floridas law is unusual? It mirrors my state any many/most others.

"Most" others? Dude, there's a thing called Wikipedia . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine Only 17 states have any "stand your ground" law, and many are weaker than Florida's.

Honestly, stop trying to practice law when you're not qualified to mop out a courthouse.

Why don't you get back to predicting which Tea Party candidate will be President, or telling us about the "ghetto stomp"?
 
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ManyBeers

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2004
2,519
1
81
I don't understand why you people are still arguing with the dude. I put him on ignore like 30 pages ago. I've actually put a lot of people on ignore thanks to this thread.

So are the 911 tapes out? They said this afternoon, right?

Also, the neighborhood is actually very racially diverse, so I do discount the race part of it.

The concealed carry part, however, is utterly outrageous. And the behavior of the police department, as well as the "stand your ground" law is terrible.

Nobody cares who you've put on ignore. Grow up.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
91
And how many states is that counselor?

You somehow think floridas law is unusual? It mirrors my state any many/most others.

Seems you are giving legal advice, as a lawyer, on very outdated information or knowledge of state law. Careful.

"Most" others? Dude, there's a thing called Wikipedia . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

Honestly, stop trying to practice law when you're not qualified to mop out a courthouse.

Why don't you get back to predicting which Tea Party candidate will be President, or telling us about the "ghetto stomp"?

And you're an imbecile if you think I am "giving legal advice." I have no client. By all means report me to my licensing body and be prepared to hear peals of laughter from my board of professional responsibility.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
"Most" others? Dude, there's a thing called Wikipedia . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

Honestly, stop trying to practice law when you're not qualified to mop out a courthouse.

Why don't you get back to predicting which Tea Party candidate will be President, or telling us about the "ghetto stomp"?

I count 17 states there. That qualifies as many but not most. You would have to look at self defense laws and not necessarily castle laws to answer my challenge.

You are giving legal advice that can potentially damage any that are reading, as a lawyer.
 
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Feb 10, 2000
30,029
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I count 17 states there. That qualifies as many but not most. You would have to look at self defense laws and not necessarily castle laws to answer my challenge.

You are giving legal advice that can potentially damage any that are reading, as a lawyer. PM me your county and state so I can report you. Do it now.

More fun to make you find it yourself. I am a relatively prominent lawyer and not hard to find. I am not, however, providing anyone legal advice, and haven't even colorably done anything wrong. If I am "giving legal advice," so are you, but without a license.

Can you give me your county and state so I can report you to your Klansman's Guild?

BTW, that link includes details on stand-your-ground laws as well as castle laws. Try reading sometime.
 
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