Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
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He's not a witness, he's an alleged victim / alleged criminal.

He's not an alleged criminal. Alleged suggest that there's a possibility he's not. He's got felony assault on a police officer charges an article said were expunged... meaning he likely completed deferred adjudication probation.

There are plenty of felons who don't commit crimes for plenty of years after they're convicted and they're not allowed to own guns.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
He's not an alleged criminal. Alleged suggest that there's a possibility he's not. He's got felony assault on a police officer charges an article said were expunged... meaning he likely completed deferred adjudication probation.

There are plenty of felons who don't commit crimes for plenty of years after they're convicted and they're not allowed to own guns.

He was never convicted of pushing and cursing a police officer. Funny how you support Occupy protesters doing the same exact thing.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
513
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He's not an alleged criminal. Alleged suggest that there's a possibility he's not. He's got felony assault on a police officer charges an article said were expunged... meaning he likely completed deferred adjudication probation.

I read an article that stated he agreed to counseling to get the charges dropped so it's unclear whether he actually has a felony.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
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The article has witnesses supporting bits and pieces of Zimmerman's account of the situation. Not entire recounts.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33151899&postcount=1864

^^ The investigators are at the end of the rope, not much to go on, and the story is one sided.

I agree that it may never go to criminal court. I also agree that Zimmerman should keep that gun on him.
 
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Feb 10, 2000
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I actually agree that it's likely the 911 calls are either exculpatory or add nothing to the case. Anytime a public agency releases news on a Friday afternoon it's because they hope it will be buried. I imagine the police department is hoping to reduce the chances of rioting.

I don't know at this point whether what happened provides Zimmerman the protection of the "stand your ground" law, but based on the police's actions I suspect it does. Unfortunately the mishandling of the initial interview of Zimmerman has probably irreparably damaged the fact-finding process, casting doubt on the validity of the information gathered.

I do know, in any case, that the law is stupidly broad in its protections, and essentially motivates anyone involved in a casual scuffle to kill his opponent to avoid culpability. I guess Florida gets the laws it deserves.

There is no question in my mind - not one scintilla - that Zimmerman is the person primarily responsible for the death of Trayvon Martin, and if he is never charged due to the stupidity of Florida's wild-west legislature, it will be a miscarriage of justice in my opinion. That doesn't mean there is, under the existing law, necessarily a basis for charging him, in any case.

I still believe Mr. Martin's family can and will bring a civil suit, and I hope the fallout from this case includes a rethinking of the wisdom of "stand your ground."
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
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He's not an alleged criminal. Alleged suggest that there's a possibility he's not. He's got felony assault on a police officer charges an article said were expunged... meaning he likely completed deferred adjudication probation.
Yes he did
There are plenty of felons who don't commit crimes for plenty of years after they're convicted and they're not allowed to own guns.
Convicted felons are not allowed to own guns unless they have their conviction expunged which can't be even requested until at least 10 years after they've been released from prison, and then it's only a maybe.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
18,684
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I actually agree that it's likely the 911 calls are either exculpatory or add nothing to the case. Anytime a public agency releases news on a Friday afternoon it's because they hope it will be buried. I imagine the police department is hoping to reduce the chances of rioting.

I don't know at this point whether what happened provides Zimmerman the protection of the "stand your ground" law, but based on the police's actions I suspect it does. Unfortunately the mishandling of the initial interview of Zimmerman has probably irreparably damaged the fact-finding process.

I do know, however, that the law is stupidly broad in its protections, and essentially motivates anyone involved in a casual scuffle to kill his opponent to avoid culpability. I guess Florida gets the laws it deserves.

There is no question in my mind - not one scintilla - that Zimmerman is the person primarily responsible for the death of Trayvon Martin, and if he is never charged due to the stupidity of Florida's wild-west legislature, it will be a miscarriage of justice in my opinion. That doesn't mean there is, under the existing law, necessarily a basis for charging him, in any case.

I still believe Mr. Martin's family can and will bring a civil suit, and I hope the fallout from this case includes a rethinking of the wisdom of "stand your ground."

I tend to agree with you.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
513
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I don't know at this point whether what happened provides Zimmerman the protection of the "stand your ground" law, but based on the police's actions I suspect it does. Unfortunately the mishandling of the initial interview of Zimmerman has probably irreparably damaged the fact-finding process, casting doubt on the validity of the information gathered.

Your probably right.
One problem with the initial interview is this...

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective peppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...eleased/story?id=15937881&page=2#.T2Oy1YHe6uI
it's been posted before yeah but it's rather relevant.

I still believe Mr. Martin's family can and will bring a civil suit, and I hope the fallout from this case includes a rethinking of the wisdom of "stand your ground."

It just might, attention may be turning to it already.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...n-Florida-puts-Stand-Your-Ground-law-on-trial

It discusses that impact of the law and whether or not it can lead to unnecessary shooting tragedies like the one that took Trayvon Martin's life.
 
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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
The article has witnesses supporting bits and pieces of Zimmerman's account of the situation. Not entire recounts.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33151899&postcount=1864

^^ The investigators are at the end of the rope, not much to go on, and the story is one sided.

I agree that it may never go to court. I also agree that Zimmerman should keep that gun on him.

I don't think we'll know until the 911 tapes come out and the case has been reviewed by 3rd parties to ensure the investigation is thorough/most importantly proper (no signs of bias), and pertinent data released to the public. Even then this case will always be based on circumstantial evidence and will be disputed for years to come.

I also think Castle Doctrine laws and "Stand your ground" provisions will be scrutinized over the next few years as well.

You will never hear me say this was a "Good Shoot" as it or any other shooting should never been looked upon in the manner. This event is tragic that resulted in a young man that hadn't had a chance to fulfill his dreams being dead.

I will continue to stand by gun ownership and the ability of a person to defend themselves/family/property. Even though I have a CCW license I don't carry unless I'm carrying a large sum of money going to and from auctions/the bank. I keep my guns locked up in a safe in my garage and the combination is in a lock box at the bank (no one other than me knows it)
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
513
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I will continue to stand by gun ownership and the ability of a person to defend themselves/family/property. Even though I have a CCW license I don't carry unless I'm carrying a large sum of money going to and from auctions/the bank. I keep my guns locked up in a safe in my garage and the combination is in a lock box at the bank (no one other than me knows it)

This is a sensible position and it's too bad that Mr. Zimmerman didn't have the same attitude given that some Law Enforcement officer's do recommend not having a weapon when you are on neighborhood watch patrol.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
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You will never hear me say this was a "Good Shoot" as it or any other shooting should never been looked upon in the manner. This event is tragic that resulted in a young man that hadn't had a chance to fulfill his dreams being dead.
I agree with that completely...this is not anything to be celebrated by anyone...there was nothing "good" about it
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
I agree with that completely...this is not anything to be celebrated by anyone...there was nothing "good" about it


I can guarantee anyone that's says it's a "Good Shoot" has never been in a position where they had to shoot or kill someone to protect their life or anyone else. Shooting and killing someone will change you forever. Just ask a member of the armed forces or law enforcement that has had to do so.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
513
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Unfortunate information keeps on coming out

WFTV learned that the first Sanford officer in charge of the scene that Sunday night when Martin was killed was also involved in another controversial case.
In 2010, a Sanford police officer's son punched a man, but he was not arrested. Only after WFTV broke the story and asked questions was Justin Collison arrested.

WFTV learned that the patrol sergeant in charge the night of Collison's attack, Anthony Raimondo, was also the patrol sergeant who initially supervised Martin's shooting scene.
Raimondo has three validated complaints and another one pending.

Whether or not it impacted the case, given the fact that a person inside the SPD said that Mr. Zimmerman was questioned first by a narcotics detective (who may have the interview rather badly) instead of a homicide detective, this information will just cause more people to question the investigation.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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I can guarantee anyone that's says it's a "Good Shoot" has never been in a position where they had to shoot or kill someone to protect their life or anyone else. Shooting and killing someone will change you forever. Just ask a member of the armed forces or law enforcement that has had to do so.

"good shoot" is only slang for "lawful use lethal force in self defense". There is nothing good about this story except for zimmerman protecting himself from grave bodily harm or death.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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Please post the link for this.

It's been in this thread, are you not reading? Are you saying the police and eye witness testimony are wrong?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-department-investigator-chris-serino

The two got into a fight, and Zimmerman wound up on the ground, he told police. Trayvon hit him in the face, and Zimmerman yelled for help.


Several witnesses heard the fight, including a 13-year-old boy out walking his dog, but there have been different accounts of who was crying for help.

Zimmerman told police that Trayvon was the aggressor. Police have found no credible evidence, Serino said, to contradict that.

"Everything we have is adding up to what he says," said Serino.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,708
513
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There are 8 calls that were recorded in relation this case

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-department-investigator-chris-serino

A hearing was planned Monday to discuss the legal issues related to the 911 calls, but it will likely be canceled.

The police have not said what time the calls will be made available. There are eight calls to be released — seven emergency calls and one non-emergency call, police said.


http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Fa...case/-/1637132/9384558/-/m74gldz/-/index.html

The family of Trayvon Martin, the teen who was shot and killed by a self-appointed neighborhood watch leader, has told Local 6 they are going to the Sanford Police Department listen to the 911 calls made by the watch leader.

The family says they are going to the police department for the calls Friday night.

It's not clear when exactly the calls will be released to the public. Mayor Jeff Triplett said the city will be releasing the 911 tapes in a written statement.
 
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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
"good shoot" is only slang for "lawful use lethal force in self defense". There is nothing good about this story except for zimmerman protecting himself from grave bodily harm or death.

It's also extremely disrespectful and incites anger that could place Mr Zimmerman's life in danger.

Maybe you should have left your attitude and arrogance out of the equation and actually stuck to the facts/laws.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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How come Martin didn't have "no duty to retreat" when a large man got out of his car and started following him at night? Is it because it's black? What if it was a 17 year old white girl instead? Would she have a right to defend herself against a large black man following her?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
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How come Martin didn't have "no duty to retreat" when a large man got out of his car and started following him at night? Is it because it's black? What if it was a 17 year old white girl instead? Would she have a right to defend herself against a large black man following her?

We've been over this time and time again.

Your hypothetical the white girl would have no duty to retreat against FORCE or aggression via FORCE, a forcible felony where she is in a place she is lawfully allowed to be.

The moment she turns aggressive in behavior and physical contact provides the other guy use of self defense provided all the other aspects or reasonable fear for life exist.

Learn the law, read the law, understand the law in most states.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
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We've been over this time and time again.

Your hypothetical the white girl would have no duty to retreat against FORCE or aggression via FORCE, a forcible felony where she is in a place she is lawfully allowed to be.

The moment she turns aggressive in behavior and physical contact provides the other guy use of self defense provided all the other aspects or reasonable fear for life exist.

Learn the law, read the law, understand the law in most states.

The real problem is that we/you/I have no idea how Zimmerman approached the kid. The "attack" on Zimmerman could have been legitimate self-defense, or it could have been unprovoked. Giving people condescending lectures about the law is pointless when all the facts aren't known.

I think the broader point though is that Zimmerman initiated the conflict by following and then approaching the kid who, as far as reports indicate, wasn't doing anything wrong. Legally Zimmerman MAY be in the clear depending on who was aggressive first, but morally I think he bears some responsibility for what happened. Everyone involved would have been better off if he'd just followed the 911 operator's suggestion.