Unarmed black 17 year old shot by Neighborhood watch captain in gated community...

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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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Found another picture of him on a funky site...looks like a more recent photo possibly from facebook but I can guess why it isn't circulated like his other ones are...might be the same hoodie too
timthumb.php

Why?
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Possibly...so he did a thorough enough job of coaching him that he was able to maintain those exact details in his mind to give testimony multiple times over several days at least...maybe the initial time but for him to be able to keep it straight for days is harder than some might claim

I don't think the concern is that he was literally "coached," but rather that he was questioned in a leading way that helped him frame his responses to track with his self-defense claim. (E.g., "So Martin jumped on top of you and was hitting you, and you felt scared for your life?" as opposed to "Why did you pull your gun?") The problem with this kind of leading questioning is that you only get one chance to interview him for the first time, and since he was (supposedly) led, it taints all of his subsequent interviews (which, unlike the initial interview, were recorded) because the police, at least potentially, helped him formulate a self-serving story that he could then stick to. It is certainly fairly basic police procedure not to do this.

It's not as though it would be hard to repeatedly tell this story the same way three times - the whole incident evolved over the course of a minute or two, not days or weeks.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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Okay, what does any of this have to do with the case at hand? Can any of this be considered when reviewing the evidence and testimony?

The police must review the evidence/testimony and follow/apply the law as it written...period.

The fact that he was armed on Neighborhood watch when at least one neighborhood watch organization deems it unwise calls into question how organized the watch program was.

Maybe the police won't look at it but it has a lot to do with this situation since the shooter was the head of this neighborhood watch program and possibly carrying while on patrol (assuming that he was scheduled to be on patrol.)
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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not necessarily. The car break-in I witnessed and identified involved a cute white chick and a black dude.

On your assumptions I would have let her slide and tried hitting on her while he got carted away?

That was witnessing an actual crime or suspicious behavior.

Where was that in this case?
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
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Possibly...so he did a thorough enough job of coaching him that he was able to maintain those exact details in his mind to give testimony multiple times over several days at least...maybe the initial time but for him to be able to keep it straight for days is harder than some might claim

Z did have a degree/was studying in criminal law, so it is possible.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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Do we know he was looking for black people? Were the previous criminals that got away black as well?

That hasn't been mentioned yet.

No we don't, but the possible contents of one of the 911 calls as reported by an anonymous source (so it may very well be discounted) does indeed indicate a need for the tapes to eventually be released in their complete forms.

Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney.... .....filed a public records lawsuit to get the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people who have heard the tapes said Zimmerman, who is white, made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and that he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.” Others outlets have reported the use of an expletive. Martin is black.

From this article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/13/trayvon-martin-sanford-state-attorney_n_1343223.html

While they probably won't be released prior to any trial the sooner they are released the sooner we can get a better idea of Mr. Zimmerman's state of mind and either dispel an unfortunate rumor give more weight to any civil lawsuit that might follow.
 
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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
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londojowo.hypermart.net
The fact that he was armed on Neighborhood watch when at least one neighborhood watch organization deems it unwise calls into question how organized the watch program was.

Maybe the police won't look at it but it has a lot to do with this situation since the shooter was the head of this neighborhood watch program and possibly carrying while on patrol (assuming that he was scheduled to be on patrol.)

The police can only use the evidence and sworn testimony..period

I seriously doubt the FBI, DoJ, or Fla Dept of Law Enforcement are going to find that the Sanford PD didn't perform a proper investigation.

In the end whether you like it or not, the law will be applied as written.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
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Z did have a degree/was studying in criminal law, so it is possible.
A degree in something doesn't help you keep a fabricated story together for a long period of time...though considering how short the encounter was it's possible he could have kept things straight, the worst that this shows though is bad police procedure, there's nothing concrete that it changed his story or the reality of what happened...hell we don;t even know what he said yet
 

Icepick

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2004
3,663
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Found another picture of him on a funky site...looks like a more recent photo possibly from facebook but I can guess why it isn't circulated like his other ones are...might be the same hoodie too
timthumb.php

Enlighten me. Why wouldn't it be circulated like the other ones?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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The fact that he was armed on Neighborhood watch when at least one neighborhood watch organization deems it unwise calls into question how organized the watch program was.

Maybe the police won't look at it but it has a lot to do with this situation since the shooter was the head of this neighborhood watch program and possibly carrying while on patrol (assuming that he was scheduled to be on patrol.)

many citizens deem no one other than police and military should be armed.

Doesn't make them right.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
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The police can only use the evidence and sworn testimony..period

I seriously doubt the FBI, DoJ, or Fla Dept of Law Enforcement are going to find that the Sanford PD didn't perform a proper investigation.

In the end whether you like it or not, the law will be applied as written.

So what happens if armed T supporters start questioning and/or detaining Z's family members on the street.

Don't they have a much a right to do this as Z?
 

Icepick

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2004
3,663
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/parents-slain-black-teen-fbi-investigation-15936993#.T2NyBflVu3w



Hopefully the FBI, DoJ, and Florida Dept of Law Enforcement will review this case, this way if no issues are noted concerning the investigation no one will be able to say that the Sanford PD didn't perform a proper investigation.

If a third party did review the case it would hopefully shed light on many of the unanswered questions we have regarding the case. I suspect, though, that at the end of the day Zimmerman will be held responsible for an unnecessary shooting of an unarmed person.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
So what happens if armed T supporters start questioning and/or detaining Z's family members on the street.

Don't they have a much a right to do this as Z?

Of course they have the right to speak to them but they don't have the right to detain them. If they attempt to detain them they are in violation of the law and will be dealt with accordingly.

You have no proof that Zimmerman detained Trayvon...well other than in your mind.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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The police can only use the evidence and sworn testimony..period

Sure, but given what is said about the wisdom of carrying while on Neighorhood Watch patrol by some who actually are or were law enforcement officials... I do hope that there is a law that prevents an armed person who is doing his rounds from confronting someone who *isn't* in the middle of committing a crime (beating someone up, vandalism, or breaking and entering for example) is passed.

And that is something that as zinfamous suspects (as do I) at least one poster worries about more than he is concerned over a tragedy that really could have been avoided (please don't tell me that you dispute that).
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
If a third party did review the case it would hopefully shed light on many of the unanswered questions we have regarding the case. I suspect, though, that at the end of the day Zimmerman will be held responsible for an unnecessary shooting of an unarmed person.

I suspect you're right on the first half of your comment but wrong on the second part. If they had enough proof via evidence/testimony Zimmerman would have already been arrested and charged.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
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So what happens if armed T supporters start questioning and/or detaining Z's family members on the street.

Don't they have a much a right to do this as Z?

This wasn't the street, it was a private community of which Zimmerman was a resident. Martin was a guest.

Zimmerman had reasonable cause to approach Martin, but that is not a requirement to ask someone a question.

There is absolutely no proof that anyone was detained. However, Florida does allow for citizen arrests....

They'd be considered a mob if they did what they propose. Only people involved at the time of the crime can make a citizens arrest in Florida.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
Sure, but given what is said about the wisdom of some by about carrying while on Neighorhood Watch patrol. I do hope that there is a law that prevents an armed person who is doing his rounds from confronting someone who *isn't* in the middle of committing a crime (beating someone up, vandalism, or breaking and entering for example) is passed.

And that is something that as zinfamous suspects (as do I) at least one poster worries about more than he is concerned over a tragedy that really could have been avoided (please don't tell me that you dispute that).

Sure it could have been avoided by Zimmerman waiting for the Police to arrive but at the end of the day you have to apply the law based on what transpired and not what could have been.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
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Enlighten me. Why wouldn't it be circulated like the other ones?
It doesn't show him looking young and innocent...in and of itself it's not a bad picture in any way but doesn't portray the image they want to project of him. It does make him look older than the football pictures by far...and if there was nothing wrong with it why would they publish it since it also possibly shows what he was wearing that night?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
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Of course they have the right to speak to them but they don't have the right to detain them. If they attempt to detain them they are in violation of the law and will be dealt with accordingly.

You have no proof that Zimmerman detained Trayvon...well other than in your mind.

You are correct I have no evidence of an attempt at detention but given what we know its possible since Z indicated to 911 that he didn't want T to get away.

Also I suspect if Z's family members are questioned on a daily basis sooner or later one of them will object and an altercation may ensue.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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513
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Sure it could have been avoided by Zimmerman waiting for the Police to arrive but at the end of the day you have to apply the law based on what transpired and not what could have been.

Given that it could have been avoided then I don't think that a law keeping people on neighborhood watch who are carrying from confronting a person who is not obviously in the middle of a crime is unreasonable.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,220
18,682
146
It doesn't show him looking young and innocent...in and of itself it's not a bad picture in any way but doesn't portray the image they want to project of him. It does make him look older than the football pictures by far...and if there was nothing wrong with it why would they publish it since it also possibly shows what he was wearing that night?

LoL

and what 50% of the people I know wear...every night. I'll go ahead and let those people know they're immediately guilty of...looking guilty.

edit: That picture, in no way, makes him look like a "thug", "gangster", or "insert here".
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
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Given that it could have been avoided then I don't think that a law keeping people on neighborhood watch who are carrying from confronting a person who is not obviously in the middle of a crime is unreasonable.
So then NW is bisbanded and people can just "walk" around their neighborhood...with a CC permit...what would such a law really accomplish?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,764
28,977
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This wasn't the street, it was a private community of which Zimmerman was a resident. Martin was a guest.

Zimmerman had reasonable cause to approach Martin, but that is not a requirement to ask someone a question.

There is absolutely no proof that anyone was detained. However, Florida does allow for citizen arrests....

They'd be considered a mob if they did what they propose. Only people involved at the time of the crime can make a citizens arrest in Florida.

Again based on what?? Many here have said Z couldn't id T at first so where is the resonable cause?? Do you think Z stops every single person walking down the street?